DRAW STROKE: Dropping your elbow or not.

Neil said:
Now, I don't mean to be sarcastic or mean here, but I can't help but find it odd that a professed C player for 15 years feels qualified to tell the top instructors in the country that they are wrong about what they teach.:confused:
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I didn't say that. I said finally we have an instructor (who is also a pro coincidentally) that advocates playing how pro's actually play.

My C level ability has nothing to do with what Max is teaching. I didn't tell him what to put on his video tape. Why don't you go find Max and tell him he's full of it? You have no problem saying it to me, but I'm not the one who made the video.
 
Neil said:
Jerry Briesath and Mark Wilson. And, your offer is off base. You want to use specialty shots as a defining factor, when no instructor has ever stated that if one uses the pendulum stroke, that they must use it on every shot ever taken. Your original statement was that no one could become a pro using the pendulum stroke. Now you want to ammend it to a pro champion using specialty shots. Guess when one knows they are wrong, they have to change the parameters to win.
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I will say that the pendulum is likely a good best practice stroke but to attempt to eliminate any elbow drop in your shots is a practice in futility as most will shoot many shots that require stretching and having to drop the elbow sans the bridge... If you train to stop something and then suddenly have to employ it are you not counter productive?.. If the natural flow of the stroke arm leads to the elbow dropping are you not creating tension in eliminating it and possibly shortening the window of cue motion straight thru the cue?

The concept of the pendulum is that the forearm is 90 degrees to the cue at contact point and that the pendulum motion is the simplest stroke that allows the player to make contact at that point... I think this fundamental can be found in the piston and slip stroke... For some of the other strokes this fundamental is not in place and those strokes likely require more hand-eye coordination and feel...

As far as Mark Wilson and Jerry Briesath... I cannot find any video of either playing without looking into the Accu-Stats archives... Teaching and demonstrating vs actual playing would be interesting to see as I have seen players that drop the elbow who would swear they didn't while in play since there was no concentration on eliminating a motion and they were letting their talent not their conscious mind play the game.....

Davenport was a piston stroke user in the vids of him I could find....

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
I will say that the pendulum is likely a good best practice stroke but to attempt to eliminate any elbow drop in your shots is a practice in futility as most will shoot many shots that require stretching and having to drop the elbow sans the bridge... If you train to stop something and then suddenly have to employ it are you not counter productive?.. If the natural flow of the stroke arm leads to the elbow dropping are you not creating tension in eliminating it and possibly shortening the window of cue motion straight thru the cue?

The concept of the pendulum is that the forearm is 90 degrees to the cue at contact point and that the pendulum motion is the simplest stroke that allows the player to make contact at that point... I think this fundamental can be found in the piston and slip stroke... For some of the other strokes this fundamental is not in place and those strokes likely require more hand-eye coordination and feel...

As far as Mark Wilson and Jerry Briesath... I cannot find any video of either playing without looking into the Accu-Stats archives... Teaching and demonstrating vs actual playing would be interesting to see as I have seen players that drop the elbow who would swear they didn't while in play since there was no concentration on eliminating a motion and they were letting their talent not their conscious mind play the game.....

Davenport was a piston stroke user in the vids of him I could find....

Chris
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Odd that you would think it takes tension to keep the elbow in place. In actuality, it is in relaxingthe shoulder muscles that the elbow stays put. As far as being streched out, I believe you will find that most actually use the pendulum stretched out. Pretty hard to drop your elbow when there is no where for your arm to go but into the table.
 
JoeyA said:
I LOVED THIS video. Thanks for posting it.

This is the second time I've posted it in this thread.
Pool players are so slow to catch on. :D

I have a question for those of you who understand snooker language better than I do. At 15:20 Steve Davis is talking about which is better, a longer backswing or a shorter backswing. He then says that if you are too short and too jerky, you may "actually reach for the shot". Can someone precisely explain what Steve means by reaching for the shot?

See around the 18 minute mark of the video below.
In snooker, you do not have to contact a rail, so it has more really short distance shots where you only want to make the slightest of contact.
You also have shots that have to get around that big table, traveling 25 feet or more.

For the short shots, Davis recommends choking up on the cue.
It is the same effect as using a really short cue, you have a stroke of minimal length so you get nothing on the ball.

For power shots, Davis recommends gripping the cue closer to the end of the butt - longer swing of the pendulum, more power when contact is made with the cue ball.

To repeat another video :grin:
More examples - They call it "screw back"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWcrQf5MA7E

I assume that when Davis talks about "actually reach for the shot" he means that you misjudge the stroke and try to force it because your cue arm is moving too slowly.

But as I speak neither American nor Brit, I am not the best person to translate for you. :D

Also at 17:20 he suggests looking at the red instead of the white because they are very close together. (I get that) But does that also mean that on shots where the object ball is further away, that the shooter should look at the white instead of the object ball when shooting? Do snooker players look at the white instead of the red on the last forward swing?

No.

Also noticed that Steve Davis drops his elbow quite frequently when demonstrating some of the shots. :D

Davis is terribly ancient for a tour snooker player, hasn't won anything significant in years, the gremlins have gotten to his technique.

Here is what he was advocating in his prime. :D

The Champions Way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpeZmBrv8bg
1 1/2 hrs
Poor audio, but it has the whole thing in a single file.
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"reaching" is where you are decelerating and trying to finish the stroke, usually throwing your shoulder or body into it.
 
You can turn your cue into 14 cues with ease.

Scaramouche said:

For the short shots, Davis recommends choking up on the cue.
It is the same effect as using a really short cue, you have a stroke of minimal length so you get nothing on the ball.

For power shots, Davis recommends gripping the cue closer to the end of the butt - longer swing of the pendulum, more power when contact is made with the cue ball.
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Click to expand...

This is really good advice, and a great advantage when the technique is implemented properly. You can turn your cue into 14 cues with ease.
 
Slasher said:
"reaching" is where you are decelerating and trying to finish the stroke, usually throwing your shoulder or body into it.
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Ahhh. Thanks. I understand that now and you might just do that on a shortened stroke length, where you are trying to hit the cue ball softer.

JoeyA
 
This ought to stir up the hornet's nest.

Davis is terribly ancient for a tour snooker player, hasn't won anything significant in years, the gremlins have gotten to his technique.

Here is what he was advocating in his prime. :D

The Champions Way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpeZmBrv8bg
1 1/2 hrs
Poor audio, but it has the whole thing in a single file.[/QUOTE]

I now notice at least for the first 10 minutes of the video that Steve does NOT drop his elbow. :grin: Maybe he needs to go back to that. :grin:

JoeyA
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I've never had the pleasure of seeing Kim play live, but in all the videos I've seen of him he rarely moves only at the elbow. Few pros do IMO. I think it's a mistake to say that pros "get away" with bad mechanics and that we shouldn't try to emulate their strokes. Maybe it's these perceived flaws that are actually responsible for at least part of their success. Pool is mostly a feel game. "Less think, more feeling" might be better advice than telling someone to concentrate on swinging only from the elbow.

BTW, Jay, do you know if Kim is still playing? I am very interested in finding out how much his game suffered after his eye injury. I had a very similar injury about six years ago (he got hit by a golf ball, I caught a block of wood off my table saw) and have similar vision loss in my right (shooting) eye. In my case I think it's impossible to play at the level I played at before my accident, but I still love the game.
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After a few years Kim attempted a comeback, basically playing with one eye. He still played well, just not the championship speed he was used to.
 
JoeyA said:
Maybe one of the whiney ass, anonymous *****es will go begging to have this thread moved too. :D... JoeyA
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seven_7days said:
You spelled SJDinPHX wrong.
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Excuse me Mr. _7days, who lives in "Denial" ?. (is that a city, or a country)..Talk about ANONYMOUS...Joey just might have been referring to YOU !...Like most on here, he sure as hell knows who I am ! (ask him)

It is obvious though Mr._7days, you are VERY good at being an 'anonymous' idiot !..:thumbup: :cool:

PS..Sorry for the mini-hijack Joey, sometimes I just feel the need to prove a point !....Carry on. ;)


dumpaday-funny-pictures-833.jpg

 
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nobcitypool said:
The point he made is you can't allow your hand to drop when dropping the elbow. Without dropping the elbow, no thought has to be given to the hand, it rotates naturally causing the tip to drop with the resulting draw shot. Dropping the elbow requires a conscious effort (which I'm sure would/should become unconscious over time with repetition) and has more moving parts. I guess I missed any real factual reason for dropping the elbow. With that said, obviously, many incredible players drop their elbow. As stated by Mark Wilson in his recent book, many things can work, it just takes more hours on the table to make them work.
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Just like golf, it doesn't matter how you go about it, as long as you hit the ball where you need too.
 
Scaramouche said:
JoeyA said:
I LOVED THIS video. Thanks for posting it.

This is the second time I've posted it in this thread.
Pool players are so slow to catch on. :D

I have a question for those of you who understand snooker language better than I do. At 15:20 Steve Davis is talking about which is better, a longer backswing or a shorter backswing. He then says that if you are too short and too jerky, you may "actually reach for the shot". Can someone precisely explain what Steve means by reaching for the shot?

See around the 18 minute mark of the video below.
In snooker, you do not have to contact a rail, so it has more really short distance shots where you only want to make the slightest of contact.
You also have shots that have to get around that big table, traveling 25 feet or more.

For the short shots, Davis recommends choking up on the cue.
It is the same effect as using a really short cue, you have a stroke of minimal length so you get nothing on the ball.

For power shots, Davis recommends gripping the cue closer to the end of the butt - longer swing of the pendulum, more power when contact is made with the cue ball.

To repeat another video :grin:
More examples - They call it "screw back"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWcrQf5MA7E

I assume that when Davis talks about "actually reach for the shot" he means that you misjudge the stroke and try to force it because your cue arm is moving too slowly.

But as I speak neither American nor Brit, I am not the best person to translate for you. :D

Also at 17:20 he suggests looking at the red instead of the white because they are very close together. (I get that) But does that also mean that on shots where the object ball is further away, that the shooter should look at the white instead of the object ball when shooting? Do snooker players look at the white instead of the red on the last forward swing?

No.

Also noticed that Steve Davis drops his elbow quite frequently when demonstrating some of the shots. :D

Davis is terribly ancient for a tour snooker player, hasn't won anything significant in years, the gremlins have gotten to his technique.

Here is what he was advocating in his prime. :D

The Champions Way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpeZmBrv8bg
1 1/2 hrs
Poor audio, but it has the whole thing in a single file.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by in snooker you don't have to contact a rail?
Click to expand...
 
CJ Wiley said:
This is really good advice, and a great advantage when the technique is implemented properly. You can turn your cue into 14 cues with ease.
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Yes, you are correct CJ..(for a change :D..JK)..At the risk of sounding like a 'name dropper', I used to have the privilege of occasionally playing a round of golf, with Roger Maltbie, when he was a young working pro at a San Jose country club... He used to match up with all us duffer's, using ONLY a 4 iron for the entire round !

Some of my regular group, (which included a few very low handicapper's) went off multiple times for this scam..I was smart, I only went off twice :rolleyes: ..Roger could form that one single 4 iron, into a long driver, a sand wedge, or a putter, whatever he needed !..It was very humbling to watch... He would rarely shoot over par, playing that way !

It is the same as a top notch pool player, playing with a broom, one handed, no chalk, whatever !..If he is good enough, it doesn't really matter what he uses for a cue !..The unwary pigeon CANNOT win !..Roger helped me win a lot of $$$$, using the same theory playing one pocket, with a crooked house cue, sometimes with NO tip.. (ask Bucktooth. :wink:)
 
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JoeyA said:
I now notice at least for the first 10 minutes of the video that Steve does NOT drop his elbow. :grin: Maybe he needs to go back to that. :grin:

JoeyA
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Don't get fooled Joey. Every top snooker player drops his elbow on power shots. Stephen Hendry in his PRIME certainly did. But apologists are blind. You know that.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Yes, you are correct CJ..(for a change :D..JK)..At the risk of sounding like a 'name dropper', I used to have the privilege of occasionally playing a round of golf, with Roger Maltbie, when he was a young working pro at a San Jose country club... He used to match up with all us duffer's, using ONLY a 4 iron for the entire round !

Some of my regular group, (which included a few very low handicapper's) went off multiple times for this scam..I was smart, I only went off twice :rolleyes: ..Roger could form that one single 4 iron, into a long driver, a sand wedge, or a putter, whatever he needed !..It was very humbling to watch... He would rarely shoot over par, playing that way !

It is the same as a top notch pool player, playing with a broom, one handed, no chalk, whatever !..If he is good enough, it doesn't really matter what he uses for a cue !..The unwary pigeon CANNOT win !..Roger helped me win a lot of $$$$, using the same theory playing one pocket, with a crooked house cue, sometimes with NO tip.. (ask Bucktooth. :wink:)
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I do not care what anybody else says. I agree with 100% of your last paragraph
 
Cornerman said:
I'm sorry Neil, but as an athlete, this is and has been one of the most misleading statements in pool on the internet for 15+ years. The coordination of more muscles is the definition of advancement in athletics. Or, to say it better, coordinating the right number of muscles to make the most efficient use of the motions. There isn't a single physical activity that differentiates excellence or even decent versus also-rans that violates this. Pool has never been different regardless of all the feel good sayings. It seems like only those who don't know a thing about athletics nor think about pool as a physical endeavor say things like "less muscles are better" or some such thing in pool.

Even the dart professionals move their arms and elbows all over the place! Why? Because it would hurt if they kept trying to keep their elbow still.


The idea of the dropped elbow is at its simplest a method to not retard your motion. It takes more effort to not drop your elbow on that full out stroke. I completely agree that keeping the elbow from dropping leads to good repeatable stroke on most average shots. But what differentiates excellence versus average is the above average shots and the ability to make the average shot even easier, as coordinated excellence affords. That's why pros are pros.

I'm sure everyone here is an athlete now, so everyone can give me their feel good story. But I'm an athlete and have been a coach. The study of motion in pool is no different.
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+1

I have been wanting to make a post along these lines for years, but I
could never have said it so well, nor so succinctly.

I do think I have a fairly sporty(some pun intended) example.
if this fewer muscles, less motion malarkey were right,
then we would shoot free throws by holding the basketball
against the middle of the chest and shoving one hand out in a straight line.

Dale(once upon a time point guard... before the term was invented)
 
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He still got 5th in the US OPEN when he came back

jay helfert said:
After a few years Kim attempted a comeback, basically playing with one eye. He still played well, just not the championship speed he was used to.
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He still got 5th in the US OPEN when he came back and beat a lot of great players. Kim was also a great money player and matched up with me in Morristown Tenn. at Frank Seal's place. He had me on the ropes for many, many hours, playing flawless pool.

He was also runner up to Mike Sigel in one of the Bicycle Club tournaments and had hight finishes in many Pro tournaments. I believe he won a Major Pro Event in North or South Carolina is seems.....can't remember which one that was, it was around 1986 or 87.
 
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