Ivory Cue Joints

Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are two types of ivory cue joints in my opinion........Flat Faced & Piloted.

I know that there are ivory sleeve over steel cue joints but I view those to be faux ivory joints. Frankly, I 'd rather have
a joint made of Juma instead of an ivory sleeve if I had to choose between the two. But ivory cue joints have become
a pre-requisite for me and personally speaking, it's the only cue joint for me nowadays.

As you can see, I own a flat faced ivory joint Scruggs cue......Wow.....what an amazing hit and feel. I also own a Paul
Mottey cue that has one of his famous "piloted" ivory cue joints.......incredible play & feel as well. I have a new custom
being made that's due to be completed by March and it has a flat faced ivory cue joint. I can't imagine what the heck an
ivory sleeve offers versus the two ivory joints I play with.

There's a difference in the feel of my Scruggs and Mottey cues and I favor the feel of the flat faced ivory joint on my
Scruggs cue over my Mottey cue just a wee bit. And both cues weigh the same & have ivory ferrules with Kamui tips so
the comparison is very fair. That's why I ordered a flat faced ivory joint for my new cue with a Kamui tip. I know what I
like and what feels best to me so when it's a winning combination, you had better stick with it.

So I am asking what does a thin ivory collar over a stainless steel joint really accomplish? Is it essentially for the cue's
overall esthetics rather than performance and feel? I mean if you want the feel of an ivory joint, why not get one instead
of a just the look of an ivory cue joint. Maybe the ivory sleeve joint is more durable? However, my Mottey cue is 23 years
old and is in "perfect" condition so obviously piloted ivory joints are very durable, or at least Mottey's are.

So my conclusion is the ivory sleeve just attempts to change the appearance of a steel joint cue. From a performance
perspective, I'm imagining that an ivory sleeve cue basically plays the same as a stainless steel piloted joint and does not
come close to the feel of a flat faced ivory cue joint and most piloted steel joints.......I say most because Paul Mottey cues
are praised about having the best piloted ivory joint made but I do not know that to be factual.

I'd appreciate any knowledgeable AZers commenting on the difference of an ivory sleeve cue joint and AZers not in the know,
chime in any way as most of us, myself included, tend to do when we find the topic of interest. Everyone is entitled to their
opinions and but the bottom-line is that some matter a lot more than others.
 
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Well, one thing we can tell from your post is that your opinion means a lot to you.

I understand wanting to praise your own cues.
Most of us have a deep warm feeling for the ones that we have.
I just dont get why you have to try & run down what someone else has or likes when doing so.

SLIM
 
Ivory over steel will play like a steel joint cue, no way around it. Those that speak so highly of how well the ivory sleeved cues play may be right but it has nothing to do with that joint combination. A solid ivory joint will play closer to a piloted ivory joint just like an ivory sleeved joint will play like a steel joint. Take Tascarella or Searing for instance, they would be a good example because they are really nice well constructed cues. It would be interesting to take two cues, an ivory sleeved and a steel joint and tape the joint then have say a hundred people shoot with them to see how many could tell the difference.
 
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$TAKE HOR$E said:
Ivory over steel will play like a steel joint cue, no way around it. Those that speak so highly of how well the ivory sleeves cues play may be right but it has nothing to do with that joint combination. A solid ivory joint will play closer to a piloted ivory joint just like an ivory sleeved joint will play like a steel joint.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Ken
 
I have tried to many cues to list, all types of joints.

My players now are and will always be FF Ivory, 3/8-10.

No two ways around it........
 
Hey Slim.....I own some great cues admittedly......don't be jealous or bitter about it.
By the way, it's the billiard industry that considers Mottey's piloted ivory joints the best,
not me or are you ignorant about Paul Mottey's reputation as a famous cue-maker?

I asked a question about ivory sleeve and apparently you have no opinion so please
just move onto another thread you can assault and find fault with. Thanks to Stakehorse
and Ken_4fun for their posts and opinions. It great when someone understands the thread
and responds instead of just reacting to the poster like Slim's apparent penchant to do.

And by the way, you must have an aberrant mind to think this thread is running down what
someone has........I think phenolic cue joints are not the best joint and I do not care for them
at all......that's my opinion.....so in your mind I suppose that amounts to running down every
AZer that owns such a cue joint....... I can overlook your lack of cue expertise and overall
ignorance but your underlying motives appear to be suspect and tend to just be a personal
attack, But heck, it's a new year and I can give you a pass on that one, at least for now.
 
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Stakehorse....Ken...... does the shaft become a big factor?

I know wood used for shafts can vary and there's bound to be differences.
But if the cue joint played a little firmer, like I imagine the ivory collar design
would play, would a lighter shaft, say 3.5 ozs, feel and play softer or transmit
the feel/vibration better than a heavy shaft, say 4.3 ozs.. which I'm imagining
would amplify the firmness/stiffness of the play & feel of an ivory sleeve?

I also believe that the ivory sleeve joint design would play very close to a
piloted steel cue joint but I do not have a lot of experience playing with that
type of cue joint. I've seen them and they look pretty. Anyway, I've always
felt that it was a ivory joint façade. The cue looks like it has an ivory joint but
the cue plays like a piloted steel joint..... a really firm hit. So I was curious if
using a lighter shaft with an ivory sleeve cue joint might soften the feel a little.

It seems like if a player liked the look and design of an ivory cue joint but did
not care for the softer hit and feel, then the ivory sleeve design was perfect.
It looks as nice as true ivory cue joint does and plays firm like a stainless steel
cue joint would......so it offers the appearance of ivory, hence my earlier referral
to it as a "faux" ivory cue joint.
 
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I have a additional question related to Ivory Joints. If you want the "hit" of ivory can it be achieved by using a LD shaft with an ivory joint or will the feel of the "hit" be more related to the ferrule. Being that Ivory ferrules are not used on LD shafts, can you have the best of both worlds? I think I have phrased this the way I want, but if it doesn't make sense feel free to interpret. THx
 
Thanks Shooter.....great question.

I was wondering about the issue of the shafts and forgot to even think about LD shafts.
My preference in a shaft is for heavier weight shafts (4.0 ozs & heavier). I think these
play better with ivory joints....again, just my opinion.

The shafts hit and feel different.....I have 3 shafts for my Mottey......3.7 ozs. 4.1 ozs and
4.3 ozs and the heavier shafts just play a little better. My Scruggs shafts are all under
4.0 ozs at 3.7 and 3.8 ozs. but the cue has a flat faced joint so I think that works better
with shafts that aren't that heavy, or so it seems to me.

Now LD shafts I have zero experience with and all my cues have original shafts so it will
be interesting to see what type responses come forth.
 
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Shooter08 said:
I have a additional question related to Ivory Joints. If you want the "hit" of ivory can it be achieved by using a LD shaft with an ivory joint or will the feel of the "hit" be more related to the ferrule. Being that Ivory ferrules are not used on LD shafts, can you have the best of both worlds? I think I have phrased this the way I want, but if it doesn't make sense feel free to interpret. THx
Click to expand...

Ivory joint has really specific feel, no matter what shaft is no it- I have had lots of cues with ivory joints and was playing with regular shafts and LD and the feel of ivory joint was still there with all shafts. I personally dont like it thats why I sold all cues with ivory joints but one (I wish I could change it, but I know I will not just because it will not be all original and cutting ivory joint is just not right)

Ivory ferrule has specific feel too but I in my opinion joint and taper of shafts affect the hit more
 
I have a solid ivory jointed cue, flat faced with radial pin. It is also a full splice cue. These things together make for one hell of a hit. I have also hit with a piloted ivory cue made by the same maker as mine. I understand completely how you feel about ivory joints. The SS joint with an ivory sleeve must be for looks.
 
hey guys dont shoot the messenger
dan janes years ago taped up the joints of cues with different joints AND NO PRO COULD TELL THE DIFERENCE......:yikes:
i can tell you using ob1 shafts on many butts of different joints and pins they all play the same
although weight and balance makes them feel different
its the tip and shaft that makes the difference
jmho
icbw
 
Bavafongoul said:
There are two types of ivory cue joints in my opinion........Flat Faced & Piloted.

You forgot the 3rd type. Lambros 'Ivory Ultra Joint', wow!!!! I think Mike (hope you're doing well) should patent this name as well.

I have an 8 point Lambros with this joint and it also has 1 inch ivory ferrules. Incredible player with the Kamui Black Soft on shaft 1 and not to shabby with a Triangle on shaft 2.

I had an Ultra Joint without ivory and it played fantastic, but still not on par with this ivory 8 pointer.

I'm a fan of any type of ivory joint, but I'm a bigger fan of ivory ferrules. I just love the hit and the feedback that you get from ivory ferrules and they sound great, too.

I can't answer the question you posed, but I wanted to tell you about that Lambros. I'm sure there's several out there somewhere, but most aren't ivory.

By the way, I acquired a Mottey recently with a piloted ivory joint. Rock solid hit to say the least. Paul's piloted ivory joint is awesome. You better finesse the rock around with that joint for the most part or you'll overrun shape, but when you need that power stroke it's definitely got it. Wish I never would have got rid of my ebony Bill McDaniel with a piloted ivory joint and ivory ferrules(damn!!!!). That cue hit 2 tons, just like this Mottey.

Have a goodn', Jerry
Click to expand...
 
Larry...I don't recall Dan Janes doing this, but Bob Meucci sure did. He had most of the top pros using his cues, and he did the test with 8-10 of them. As you mentioned, none of them could tell a difference.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

bbb said:
hey guys dont shoot the messenger
dan janes years ago taped up the joints of cues with different joints AND NO PRO COULD TELL THE DIFERENCE......:yikes:
i can tell you using ob1 shafts on many butts of different joints and pins they all play the same
although weight and balance makes them feel different
its the tip and shaft that makes the difference
jmho
icbw
Click to expand...
 
I use to have a cue that's ivory joint flat face but can't recall whether it was sleeved or a solid joint. It was a long time ago and I believe it could have been sleeved because I cracked it from breaking with it.

I remember it definitely felt different shooting with it. It's feels strong without the stiff feel from a steel joint.

Can someone tell me what are we exactly feeling here? Lighter hit? The same with ferrules too, what are the benefits.
 
Scott Lee said:
Larry...I don't recall Dan Janes doing this, but Bob Meucci sure did. He had most of the top pros using his cues, and he did the test with 8-10 of them. As you mentioned, none of them could tell a difference.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

scott
dan janes told me the story.
he may have said meucci did it and i forgot
 
Bavafongoul said:
So I am asking what does a thin ivory collar over a stainless steel joint really accomplish? Is it essentially for the cue's
overall esthetics rather than performance and feel? I mean if you want the feel of an ivory joint, why not get one instead
of a just the look of an ivory cue joint. Maybe the ivory sleeve joint is more durable? However, my Mottey cue is 23 years
old and is in "perfect" condition so obviously piloted ivory joints are very durable, or at least Mottey's are.

So my conclusion is the ivory sleeve just attempts to change the appearance of a steel joint cue.
Click to expand...

My assumption was that a steel inner sleeve protected the ivory joint for tightly fit piloted shafts. So you can have the looks of ivory and the tight compression fit of stainless steel. It would serve a similar purpose as a fiber pad is supposed to provide for a ferrule. Whether you need either of those will be the subject of polarized debate.

I'm not a cuemaker, so what do I know?
 
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken
 
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