Nice, but you'd never last a minute in Sasquatch Country with those.
Can Pro players get jobs and still compete?
- Thread starter PETROBOY
- Start date
Obviously you don't - if you did you would understand you should have
said something like, "I read perfectly well".
But my overall guideline remains - post on forums are a type of
'casual' conversation - so, no harm, no foul.
Howsomever, understand you well may, but much less well than I.
Dale(ornery and ostentatious)
not aimed at you.... just using your quote as a starting point....
The BCA makes it perfectly clear in their By Laws that professional pool is not on their radar. Don't care, Don't want to care. It is a trade organization (see by laws below). First sentence first objective "..to enhance the success of BCA members..." who are primarily business members.
Lastly, and more to the point of this thread. There is no definition of a Professional Pool Player (in the US), at least on the men's side, that I can find. If I wanted to be a pro golfer there is a clear path (and "Q school" ain't cheap).... so a question of can a pro do xy or z and still be a pro is very difficult to discuss because there is no common definition.
We get into this opinion based discussion of "OH Pete from Capital City is a pro... why I saw him give George the 7 out and just break him.... and George came in 3rd at the US Open... blah, blah, blah....)
I know an agreement can be had on AZ about "majority of income.." but does that mean a player going from one B level tournament to the next one making $9K for year and picking up another $5K doing something else, is a pro?
Until there is a clear path (qualifiers, minimum earnings, minimum skill requirements, organizational status, etc, etc) and definition I believe we are just talking about a pyramid (very good players down to causal player at the bottom) and so in order to pursue a hobby (which is all this is in the US at the moment) other sources of income are required. IMO
With really nothing else available, if we were to use the SBE definition developed as a guideline for amateur events .. there are maybe, maybe ... 20 men who meet the definition of Pro in the US. (The women's side is more clearly defined). And some of those 20 end up on the list because of a very good run at DCC or Turning Stone (an open regional event). (definition below). So Justin and Mark are right -- "Pro pool could be purchased for nothing in the US".. and a serious of 16 player tournaments could work... just include a clear why to qualify .... Until something changes it is a hobby, a passion, an obsession but not a Profession.
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Just to let you know, the BCA's mission was quite different years ago. What you have written is what they are now. The BCA shut the door -- no, SLAMMED the door on American professional pool.
It was up to the BCA to establish ranking points. They were supposed to be the American representative of pool to the world pool organization, yet they keep the title in their name and don't have a damn thing to do with professional pool anymore.
Yes, the industry members of the BCA get fat while the professoinal pool players of America scrape for crumbs a few of them throw their way.
I've backed pool players for millions of dollars through the years. As a matter of fact I backed an entire tour in 1996/99 called the PCA....you may have heard of it.
....
well aren't you just a smart-ass this morning? (FYI, today's coffee talk is "the players ass." @ ABR thread)
i meant: now?
and i'm asking you, because you're CJ Wiley. and you're one of the last ones standing; you're still here. you, apparently did something right, in your career of being a professional pool player. and STILL are.
you get auto-respect for your achievements. you have to earn it, personally....
but on this topic, i feel YOU, are probably qualified, the MOST - from everything that KK9 has taught me about Pool's History. what are (did) the failing "pros" doing wrong?
Just to let you know, the BCA's mission was quite different years ago. What you have written is what they are now. The BCA shut the door -- no, SLAMMED the door on American professional pool.
It was up to the BCA to establish ranking points. They were supposed to be the American representative of pool to the world pool organization, yet they keep the title in their name and don't have a damn thing to do with professional pool anymore.
Yes, the industry members of the BCA get fat while the professoinal pool players of America scrape for crumbs a few of them throw their way.
Yup.. I know what they were... I used to be skinny (LOL)... but today is today and they are honest about their focus. Could you tell me what you mean by" profession pool player of America" ... is this an accomplished player that could make a living at their passion if given the chance? To quote my favorite philosopher
Look, if you know what the BCA was, then you should be outraged at what they have become.
In case you have not noticed, there is a difference between a professional player and a social player. Think about it.
I can play golf recreationally, or I can join a women's tour, with the key emphasis on "TOUR."
There ain't no tour in America for professional pool. The BCA, being the representative for America to the world pool organization, is supposed to take on this task. They have turned their backs on it, and instead, they elect each other as Industry Member of the Year and go to banquets. Professional pool players were left out to dry, and it's every man for himself.
Then you have members of this pool forum blaming pro players for pool's problems. These pro players are trying to survive. While the industry members of the BCA eat filet mignon dinners, the pro players are thrown a bone with not much meat on it to share with not only themselves, but with non-American pro players. Mika went to a Chinese pool tournament on an American BCA slot. It's quite disgusting what the BCA is currently doing. In fact, it is outrageous, yet they will continue to grease each other's palms in their little good ol' boys' club a/k/a BCA.
Jam, I have to ask. What in your opinion is the answer to fixing the Pro Pool situation? You have been there with Keith and seen what it takes to make it on the road...hustling, gambling and must place in tourneys to live. Do you think that pool will ever loose that image? I would love to see a Pro tour like PGA has with nice payouts, but I don't think that will ever come to be due to lack of interest by sponsers. I know CJ is working on something, but I am curious to hear what you think will fix it. I am not hear to demean any pro (POS or great person) lord knows I have known plenty of pros that do it on their own. I have backed and helped several pros, but it wasn't just because I liked them, I was looking for a ROI. Thats the business end of it and anyone who says otherwise is either well beyond means or not telling the truth.
"Look" its a tweety bird... very aggressive and condescending.. but I appreciate your perspective from on high...
...anyway...
Ok I get your point we should sit around and ***** and moan about the BCA "They are the problem".
Great don't join the BCA, don't support member company's, let it be known dollars are being withheld. In fact YOU (I think you would be PERFECT) should start a Thread right here advocating a boycott of all BCA members until they show their commitment to creating Pro Pool in the US. List these members -- advertise against them! ask company reps to comment on why/how the can support or be a member of an organization that is so counterproductive. (Power to the People)
The problem is ... IMHO is there is NO DEMAND for a "Product" called Professional Pool in the USA. and to keep saying the Pro's this or the Pro's that.. is meaningless... who are they? buy what definition? is it like porn, I know it when I see it? There are pool tournaments that similar names win again and again but these are OPEN events so... these names are accomplished players YES.. but there is no "Professional Pool" in the US.... so do I feel bad for anyone that is highly accomplished at anything but yet can not earn a living at that talent, yes.
How about a thought experiment? If there was NO "Pro Pool" in the US (it isn't hard if you try..) how exactly would the pool world change? Accomplished players in the US, if they wish to make a living with their talent, would move. (ex. DAZ went from UK to Phillp to gain experience and now to here...) Could that path not lead to China or where ever the next meca is ?
If I am an oil worker I don't go to New York looking for work... I am in the Dakota's...
At the "Professional Level" the 1920" were possibly the peak, then a very brief time in the late 40's... then wilderness (The wilderness produced the stories of "The Road" because that is the only way they could survive if pool was the choice).. now were there periods of renewed interest - yes.. and local / regional tournaments provided a traveling player away to eat off their talent (60s, 70s, 80s). But even during these times 100% Professional Player was hard to come by, as most added to their income from gambling. Then the IPT .. the structure and dollars were what everyone believed a Professional Tour should look like ... but it was an illusion and not sustainable (why?).
The grieving process is hard and the "if a", "would a", "could a" 's kill you. The blame, the shame and finally acceptance. Pro Pool in the US is dead we have to understand this, if we are to understand the story....
Any how those are my thoughts... I leave you to yours... :thumbup:
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I do have some ideas, but I can't take the time to write them right this minute, as I'm trying to finish up a project at work.
Tomorrow morning, when I'm fresh and sipping my Pleasant Morning Buzz, I'll be back.
there will be a way with TV....the question is "who truly has the will?"
The "failing Pros" have been giving it away for free too long and it has caught up with them. 1996-99 we played a tournament on ESPN that was a GIGANTIC commercial for the Game. This made the Game more popular because it was in front of "main stream" America and sponsors were willing to play top dollar to support their chosen Pro.
There was a formula I was taught by Don Mackey to get pool on TV and one thing I can say about him is he knew "The Secret".....and I was lucky he shared it with me. When Don and I were both out of the Game no one ever called to see how we did it.....and pool all but disappeared from public view. Matt Braun is the only one left that understands how it's done with 'Challenge of Champions'......and I doubt if he'll share his techniques.
Now pool is mainly on streaming video going out to only pool fans (mainstream America barely ever watches sports on line) this money is no longer there, and "mainstream America" no longer sees pool (out of sight, out of mind). Without public TV in public bars, restaurants, sports bars, etc. any sport would eventually wither and die....pool's no exception, it's the "sample example".
Giving something away for free always has positive "short term results," and then it loses it's value and the "bottom drops out". We used to give away a free, happy hour buffet at my club in Dallas. By 10 PM we would have 1000 people go through the door and run up 10k in sales to get the night started.....then the customers with money started to be naturally filtered out by the ones that were "on a budget".
After 15 months were were left with the "bottom of the barrel" customers and had to make a significant change to get back the "top shelf" customers that would spend money again.
Pool's at this juncture, we have nobody left that will spend money on merchandise, and no "brand loyalty," so there's really nothing left......but to reinvent ourselves, and this takes courage and resources.
If there's a will there will be a way....the question is "who truly has the will?"
'The Game is the Teacher'
well aren't you just a smart-ass this morning? (FYI, today's coffee talk is "the players ass." @ ABR thread)
i meant: now?
and i'm asking you, because you're CJ Wiley. and you're one of the last ones standing; you're still here. you, apparently did something right, in your career of being a professional pool player. and STILL are.
you get auto-respect for your achievements. you have to earn it, personally....
The "failing Pros" have been giving it away for free too long and it has caught up with them. 1996-99 we played a tournament on ESPN that was a GIGANTIC commercial for the Game. This made the Game more popular because it was in front of "main stream" America and sponsors were willing to play top dollar to support their chosen Pro.
There was a formula I was taught by Don Mackey to get pool on TV and one thing I can say about him is he knew "The Secret".....and I was lucky he shared it with me. When Don and I were both out of the Game no one ever called to see how we did it.....and pool all but disappeared from public view. Matt Braun is the only one left that understands how it's done with 'Challenge of Champions'......and I doubt if he'll share his techniques.
Now pool is mainly on streaming video going out to only pool fans (mainstream America barely ever watches sports on line) this money is no longer there, and "mainstream America" no longer sees pool (out of sight, out of mind). Without public TV in public bars, restaurants, sports bars, etc. any sport would eventually wither and die....pool's no exception, it's the "sample example".
Giving something away for free always has positive "short term results," and then it loses it's value and the "bottom drops out". We used to give away a free, happy hour buffet at my club in Dallas. By 10 PM we would have 1000 people go through the door and run up 10k in sales to get the night started.....then the customers with money started to be naturally filtered out by the ones that were "on a budget".
After 15 months were were left with the "bottom of the barrel" customers and had to make a significant change to get back the "top shelf" customers that would spend money again.
Pool's at this juncture, we have nobody left that will spend money on merchandise, and no "brand loyalty," so there's really nothing left......but to reinvent ourselves, and this takes courage and resources.
If there's a will there will be a way....the question is "who truly has the will?"
'The Game is the Teacher'
In the mean time pool players will be struggling like all past artistic disciples (musicians, artists, spiritual leaders, writers, actors, etc).
But is the struggle worth it? I say yes. Ars gratia artis. If folks were content to wait on society to appreciate greatness or insight, then many of our modern amenities would not exist and historians would have much less ink to spill...
For those that have said that taking on a job would restrict tournament play.
I have been at my present job for close to 3 years, with the exception of time off due to a car accident.
I qualified for 3 weeks vacation and it doesn't take long to get up 4, 5 and 6.
Start a job early in life and you can qualify for 6 weeks paid time off.
I get one week of scheduled work and the rest call ins. I can work full time or juggle my hours like I usually do. I generally know how many hours I can put in before I get hit hard and am just paying the government to work.
I work less hours and make a bit more than a full time employee, because of my employment status. I have less deductions.
I mean thats not the norm for most people but there are jobs out there that can be modified somewhat to suit a persons needs.
There are jobs like that out there, thing is, one has to go and find them.
If you have a trade, you can go to the Union Hall and take on a job, when thats over, you don't have to go in until the next time you feel like working.
Drive a taxi. Those shifts are pretty flexible. Go in and grind for a few days and take the rest of the week off.
There are lots of part time jobs around where you can pretty much make your own hours and weeks.
Part time Sales for instance. The more you put into it, the more you can make in less time.
So, the idea to me, that a person can't work so as to be available for practice time and tournaments is a little far fetched.
Good excuse tho if you are looking for one so you don't have to work.
I have been at my present job for close to 3 years, with the exception of time off due to a car accident.
I qualified for 3 weeks vacation and it doesn't take long to get up 4, 5 and 6.
Start a job early in life and you can qualify for 6 weeks paid time off.
I get one week of scheduled work and the rest call ins. I can work full time or juggle my hours like I usually do. I generally know how many hours I can put in before I get hit hard and am just paying the government to work.
I work less hours and make a bit more than a full time employee, because of my employment status. I have less deductions.
I mean thats not the norm for most people but there are jobs out there that can be modified somewhat to suit a persons needs.
There are jobs like that out there, thing is, one has to go and find them.
If you have a trade, you can go to the Union Hall and take on a job, when thats over, you don't have to go in until the next time you feel like working.
Drive a taxi. Those shifts are pretty flexible. Go in and grind for a few days and take the rest of the week off.
There are lots of part time jobs around where you can pretty much make your own hours and weeks.
Part time Sales for instance. The more you put into it, the more you can make in less time.
So, the idea to me, that a person can't work so as to be available for practice time and tournaments is a little far fetched.
Good excuse tho if you are looking for one so you don't have to work.
Or the other side of the coin...I will say more when I get a moment!!!!!!
Pro players that know everything about pool and analyse the way they shoot and know why they miss if they ever did, should be able to compete with minimal warm ups preferably an hour or two before match, that is 9 , or 10 ball. For one pocket now warm up is needed, it is different, because 90% of shots in general (normal games) are short easy shots and banks so a pro will not miss short range shots.