Is Touch Of Inside "the teacher"

[RFranklin]

"TWIN" - touch of whatever is needed

That is called "A Touch of Whatever is Needed."

The Layout is the Teacher

You nailed it. I set up the shot again and then rolled out all the balls in 9 ball and I am not calling bs but inside just doesn't work. Pros use the rails for control and you cant play long positions off of the rails using inside. It doesn't even work on paper? So Tony In MD how much is your video? :grin:

 

[West Point 1987]

My question is when using Toi all the time and needing more inside or outside english for position. Example is a a slight cut to the left needing outside english for shape. Do I shift over slightly to the inside for toi and then swivel back to the right for the outside? Basically Im hitting closer to center or just to the right of center but it puts outside spin because Ive shifted over to the left for toi. Does this make sense?

Yes...use BHE to put outside on the shot. You should just try swinging it back to center CB or just a hair outside, the collision induced spin on the CB will probably be more than enough to swing it the way you want/need.

Don't get too hung up on the inside part...after a while, you will line up on it like it's your "new center", you won't hardly notice the inside offset. It's just a hair of inside, not a whole lot, and it will vary a little based on how thick/thin your shot is. The ideal offset is such that the CB has no spin coming off the collision with the OB. It "floats" along a totally predictable path. When you need to put outside/low on it to pinch draw it off the opposite rail, you only need about a half tip from that position to pull it flat across the table and back. You'll start to have a better feel on how much outside you really need when drawing it back off a rail to pull it back (past the side pockets) to get to the foot rail for shape. It took me some time to realize that I really didn't need nearly as much outside spin as I thought to get the job done, and now I rarely over run my position (which is a key indication that you've put too much pepper/spin on the shot).

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's ironic that something so simple could be so effective, and so difficult for....

I switched over to TOI back in July of 2013. I use it 100%, my game has definitely improved, my confidence has risen, and the game is once again fun.

Once you are lined up with a TOI cut, you can pivot the cue back to the outside if outside English is needed.

That is correct, when you need spin you simply pivot into position, using TOI as the reference point....instead of center. I can play for hours using pure TOI, and only spinning the shot when I need to change the angle off a cushion.

The Touch of Inside makes the game much easier because you are hitting the same side of the cue ball, using the same shot speed and creating the all the angles off center of edge by using the TIP as the "measuring stick"......more TOI creates more angle, what could be easier.....it's ironic that something so simple could be so effective, and so difficult for the majority to grasp. That's ok, the ones that are supposed to learn it will, that's all that matters. 'The Game is Your Teacher'

 

[AlexandruM]

I'm also using TOI, and I'm happy with it. On slow, old cloth the TOI is a cheater solution
My main problem was using TOI on fast Simonis cloth, for that cloth I lowered my stance, use a longer bridge, and grip the cue in the butt cap zone. It works, I'm playing pool for 4 years, and in the last month I made more break&runs than in all years before.

 

[The Renfro]

TOI will teach you new patterns and let you hedge your shot making... IF you don't spend the time to understand the cueball paths you won't be able to put it to use...

You still play to the proper side of the ball but you play a little steeper or shallower depending on your next shot.. To me it's about trying to stay around halfball hits and not having to do too much to whitey to get him in position to do the same thing next shot....

Chris

 

[Colin Colenso]

Some thoughts after trying some TOI

I found its main strength to be as an alignment aid, particularly on rail cuts, from just off straight to 1/4 ball.

I've long had a tendency to aim these shots too full, and use moderate outside english (OE) to throw the OB to the pocket.

As CJ mentioned, it takes some practice to determine the offset of tip to initially align with... I'd add that the one must also pay attention to, and make adjustments for bridge length and distance between CB and OB.

I'm yet to see any significant advantage on playing the actual shot with a touch of IE though... except the odd shot where position demands it.

As I use back hand english a lot, it's easy for me to just pivot for more IE, or to center CB or a touch of OE.

I'd disagree that just a hair of OE can send the OB way off the path, but it is true that on most shots, outside english produces more variation in throw than using IE.

Years ago we discussed and did some calculations for offset aim (straight) then pivot as a way to create the final aim. There is some guess work in it, particularly in estimating the offset, but it's surprisingly more accurate than one would imagine.

So it makes sense to me, that some shots which tend to be undercut, will meet more success when a fuller aim through TOI is practiced. The alternatives are to swerve, swipe, squirt or throw it in, or force the brain into seeing the thinner angle better. I guess it takes practice of each to see which way works best for each player.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Look for 5 advertisement threads in the main forum.



"Marketing is the Teacher"

You nailed it. I set up the shot again and then rolled out all the balls in 9 ball and I am not calling bs but inside just doesn't work. Pros use the rails for control and you cant play long positions off of the rails using inside. It doesn't even work on paper? So Tony In MD how much is your video? :grin:

 

[Ratta]

I was taking a couple of extra classes at one time also. Part of that included the teaching, learning roles of
seeing, hearing and kinesthetically. It made me realize what areas that I was best suited for in order to learn.

I guess that this is attributed to Ben Franklin. One shop that I worked in had this on the wall.

Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember, involve me and I learn.

Very well written!
And very very important to know how YOU learn best, too.

lg from overseas,

ingo

 

[CJ Wiley]

"we only recognize what we're familiar with", - TOI is the Sample Exampl

TOI will teach you new patterns and let you hedge your shot making... IF you don't spend the time to understand the cueball paths you won't be able to put it to use...

You still play to the proper side of the ball but you play a little steeper or shallower depending on your next shot.. To me it's about trying to stay around halfball hits and not having to do too much to whitey to get him in position to do the same thing next shot....

Chris

That's right, Chris ... "we only recognize what we're familiar with," and TOI made me familiar with parts of the Game that I would have never seen without that experience. No matter if you use TOI all the time or not, it's essential to know the "inside" information to win.

Watched the first few chapters and stopped. I'll get to the reason why in a few.

I've mentioned that I had been tinkering with the gist of TOI for a few weeks.

I've certainly had some off days as well as some that are decent. Still not a world beater. For example, last weekend on my practice day, If I was able to make a ball, I'd over run position then get too tentative and the next few only to come up way short so it was a mixture of mess. LOL.

Since I only watched the first few chapters before I stopped, I'm the type that makes notes, both mental and written. Then I proceed to just work on that until I have the full understanding of it before I move on.

I'm meticulous about detail so I find methods to try and make it simple without overwhelming or convolutions.

Today's routine was much better than usual but I'm still not a world beater.

FWIW, I was watching a little of the Swanee stream last night. I watched Ronnie Alcano thump on Warren Kiamco. Race to 7. Alcano closed the set 7-3 over Kiamco.

Anyone care to guess what technique Alcano was using? First 2 guesses don't count.

Again a hearty thanks to CJ for letting us all in on this fabulous little secret!
I've struggled with my position play for a long, long time - then I discovered CJ Wileys Touch of Inside DVD, and I've worked with it for a month. Not only has my ball potting improved greatly, but I still find it hard to believe how much better I control the cue ball and get the shape I need. When I do it correctly, that CB just floats to position. I don't post often here, but this just had to be said. Thank you CJ!

 

[CJ Wiley]

My main problem was using TOI on fast Simonis cloth

I'm also using TOI, and I'm happy with it. On slow, old cloth the TOI is a cheater solution
My main problem was using TOI on fast Simonis cloth, for that cloth I lowered my stance, use a longer bridge, and grip the cue in the butt cap zone. It works, I'm playing pool for 4 years, and in the last month I made more break&runs than in all years before.

Yes, the Touch of Inside Technique is most effective on worn cloth like you see in pool rooms. Tournament conditions require a different type game and strategy. Basically the player that makes the fewest mistakes will win tournaments.....but this won't "get the cash" in tough, gambling conditions.

The main difference with new, Simonis cloth is to adjust your "Shot Speed" and calibrate it to take advantage of the softer pockets (new cloth makes the pockets play much easier).

 

[Matt]

For me TOI is nothing revolutionary, but it does offer a unique perspective compared to most techniques.

For every shot, your control of what happens is (effectively) limited to the point on the cue ball you hit, the direction your cue is pointing, and the speed of the cue upon impact. The immediate result is the cue ball moving in a particular direction with a specific amount of spin on each axis. The successful execution of a shot depends on your ability to a) figure out the direction and spin we need to make the cue ball do what you want it to, b) work backwards from that to the impact point, cue direction, and speed necessary, then c) manipulate the cue to reproduce those parameters.

Most beginner pool players learn to pocket balls while simplifying the translation of cue motion to cue ball motion by hitting (near) the center of the cue ball. With center ball hits, the cue ball direction is the same as the cue direction and it continues in that direction until it hits something. Even with draw and follow along the center vertical axis, this holds true. Theoretically, you can actually accomplish quite a lot on a pool table with center, draw and follow. In practice, it makes the game difficult. Hitting the vertical axis on a cue ball, or even close enough to it to get the expected behavior, is tough to do consistently. The way an object ball reacts to a cue ball with no horizontal spin, is erratic because the amount of throw it produces is very sensitive to the angle and whether the cue ball is spinning, sliding, or rolling. Finally, not using english severely limits your possible position routes. Therefore, it's not long before english becomes a part of the game, and...

With english comes deflection/squirt, swerve, massé, and spin-induced throw, all of which are conspiring against you to make you miss the shots that you used to make with center ball. Deflection/squirt means that the initial direction of the cue ball isn't the same as the cue direction, swerve and massé (really the same thing) cause the cue ball curve, and spin-induced throw makes the object ball behave differently. In order to still make balls with english, we develop techniques to compensate for all of these factors. Some do it very well without thinking about it, some think about it a lot, and some use "shortcut" techniques that do some of the compensation for them. TOI is one of those techniques, and it works well for some people.

The unique thing about TOI compared to most techniques is that it doesn't really consider the intended line between the cue ball and the object ball. Instead, it uses a reference line (either center to center or center to edge) and a parallel shift of the cue to create enough squirt to produce the correct line, (hopefully) making the shot. The fact that you can combine it with backhand english (pivoting the cue without moving your bridge) means that if you have arrived at the correct alignment using the TOI technique and pivot back to where the cue is pointed straight through the center of the cue ball, you will have the cue pointed along the correct shot line. From that standpoint, the technique is theoretically sound. There are also some benefits to shooting with inside, arguably more than shooting with outside, the initial alignment process lends itself to shooting most shots with inside english (although, as already mentioned, you can use backhand english to pivot to a shot with outside if you want). Ultimately, you can shoot any shot (contact point, cue direction, and speed) by first aligning using TOI, but the tendency is to play with mostly inside, which often results in lots of stun shots.

Personally, I usually prefer to line up with the intended cue ball path as my starting point and compensate for any english I decide to use from there to find my new aiming point, but there are some shots where I have found it easier to use the parallel shift to change my shot line. In particular, shots that are nearly straight in or nearly a half ball hit seem easier to play this way. I'd like to give CJ credit for it, but I've been using that little mental "trick" since long before he debuted TOI and said you should shoot every shot that way. Now I just know what it's called. :wink:

 

[CJ Wiley]

No great pool players ever got to where they're at without going through PAIN

That's well stated, thanks for taking the time to write an advanced overview of your experience with 'The Touch of Inside' - it's certainly a "new dimension" in a pool game.

No matter what techniques and systems you may incorporate over your playing career, one thing will be certain. You must do things that make you uncomfortable and require pain to get through. No great pool players ever got to where they're at without going through a lot of pain.......but the suffering is optional.....suffering is when you get "stuck" and can't get any better....this is what I call "Pool Purgatory"..and it sucks for someone to get sentenced there for any extended period of time.

TOI will break someone out of "Pool Purgatory" because it requires some pain to do what's recommended. It only takes 3 hours to get your "dose" of TOI, but only a few people will be able to do something uncomfortable for that much time. No matter what, you will have to fight the inclination to go back to what's comfortable......you must be willing to fight the desire to not change....we all have to face it at some time in life to reap the benifits of what we've been missing, and satisfy our curiosity about "what could be". 'The Game is the Teacher'

For me TOI is nothing revolutionary, but it does offer a unique perspective compared to most techniques.

For every shot, your control of what happens is (effectively) limited to the point on the cue ball you hit, the direction your cue is pointing, and the speed of the cue upon impact. The immediate result is the cue ball moving in a particular direction with a specific amount of spin on each axis. The successful execution of a shot depends on your ability to a) figure out the direction and spin we need to make the cue ball do what you want it to, b) work backwards from that to the impact point, cue direction, and speed necessary, then c) manipulate the cue to reproduce those parameters.

Most beginner pool players learn to pocket balls while simplifying the translation of cue motion to cue ball motion by hitting (near) the center of the cue ball. With center ball hits, the cue ball direction is the same as the cue direction and it continues in that direction until it hits something. Even with draw and follow along the center vertical axis, this holds true. Theoretically, you can actually accomplish quite a lot on a pool table with center, draw and follow. In practice, it makes the game difficult. Hitting the vertical axis on a cue ball, or even close enough to it to get the expected behavior, is tough to do consistently. The way an object ball reacts to a cue ball with no horizontal spin, is erratic because the amount of throw it produces is very sensitive to the angle and whether the cue ball is spinning, sliding, or rolling. Finally, not using english severely limits your possible position routes. Therefore, it's not long before english becomes a part of the game, and...

With english comes deflection/squirt, swerve, massé, and spin-induced throw, all of which are conspiring against you to make you miss the shots that you used to make with center ball. Deflection/squirt means that the initial direction of the cue ball isn't the same as the cue direction, swerve and massé (really the same thing) cause the cue ball curve, and spin-induced throw makes the object ball behave differently. In order to still make balls with english, we develop techniques to compensate for all of these factors. Some do it very well without thinking about it, some think about it a lot, and some use "shortcut" techniques that do some of the compensation for them. TOI is one of those techniques, and it works well for some people.

The unique thing about TOI compared to most techniques is that it doesn't really consider the intended line between the cue ball and the object ball. Instead, it uses a reference line (either center to center or center to edge) and a parallel shift of the cue to create enough squirt to produce the correct line, (hopefully) making the shot. The fact that you can combine it with backhand english (pivoting the cue without moving your bridge) means that if you have arrived at the correct alignment using the TOI technique and pivot back to where the cue is pointed straight through the center of the cue ball, you will have the cue pointed along the correct shot line. From that standpoint, the technique is theoretically sound. There are also some benefits to shooting with inside, arguably more than shooting with outside, the initial alignment process lends itself to shooting most shots with inside english (although, as already mentioned, you can use backhand english to pivot to a shot with outside if you want). Ultimately, you can shoot any shot (contact point, cue direction, and speed) by first aligning using TOI, but the tendency is to play with mostly inside, which often results in lots of stun shots.

Personally, I usually prefer to line up with the intended cue ball path as my starting point and compensate for any english I decide to use from there to find my new aiming point, but there are some shots where I have found it easier to use the parallel shift to change my shot line. In particular, shots that are nearly straight in or nearly a half ball hit seem easier to play this way. I'd like to give CJ credit for it, but I've been using that little mental "trick" since long before he debuted TOI and said you should shoot every shot that way. Now I just know what it's called. :wink:

 

[Chrippa]

well said to both of you imo.

How would you teach a child to walk, - you do it by example not by words.
Copy the feelings and you will feel it. The limit is limitless.

Chrippa

That's well stated, thanks for taking the time to write an advanced overview of your experience with 'The Touch of Inside' - it's certainly a "new dimension" in a pool game.

No matter what techniques and systems you may incorporate over your playing career, one thing will be certain. You must do things that make you uncomfortable and require pain to get through. No great pool players ever got to where they're at without going through a lot of pain.......but the suffering is optional.....suffering is when you get "stuck" and can't get any better....this is what I call "Pool Purgatory"..and it sucks for someone to get sentenced there for any extended period of time.

TOI will break someone out of "Pool Purgatory" because it requires some pain to do what's recommended. It only takes 3 hours to get your "dose" of TOI, but only a few people will be able to do something uncomfortable for that much time. No matter what, you will have to fight the inclination to go back to what's comfortable......you must be willing to fight the desire to not change....we all have to face it at some time in life to reap the benifits of what we've been missing, and satisfy our curiosity about "what could be". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[SCCues]

Efren told me his secret was "NO SPIN"

This has to be a mistake.......Efren is the best ever at spinning the cue ball when other players would be trying to find another way. I've watched Efren play when I could for years and I have tons of Videos of him playing and i've seen him shoot so many finesse spin shots to get perfect position I couldn't count them all.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The "NO SPIN" effect is after object ball contact,

This has to be a mistake.......Efren is the best ever at spinning the cue ball when other players would be trying to find another way. I've watched Efren play when I could for years and I have tons of Videos of him playing and i've seen him shoot so many finesse spin shots to get perfect position I couldn't count them all.

He was referring to "Side Spin"... The "NO SPIN" effect is after object ball contact, not at the tip/cue ball necessarily.....it makes the cue ball appear to "float" into position.

 

[Colin Colenso]

He was referring to "Side Spin"... The "NO SPIN" effect is after object ball contact, not at the tip/cue ball necessarily.....it makes the cue ball appear to "float" into position.

The reaction of the CB has a linear progression between touch of outside, stun and touch of inside, and it varies with angles and speeds. This is a known physics fact and known to good players who have tested it. TOI simply comes off the rail a bit squarer and slower.

 

[gregcantrall]

Didn't say he couldn't spin the cue ball.

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley; Efren told me his secret was -NO SPIN-

This has to be a mistake.......Efren is the best ever at spinning the cue ball when other players would be trying to find another way. I've watched Efren play when I could for years and I have tons of Videos of him playing and i've seen him shoot so many finesse spin shots to get perfect position I couldn't count them all.

This reminds me of the line from Quigley Down Under.
"I didn't say I couldn't use one. I just said I did not have much use for one."

People assume that Efren can't shoot a jump shot, because they have never seen him shoot one. I have and it was the best jump shot I have ever seen executed in competition.

 

[Mitchxout]

Oh please, stop it, :slap:

 

[CJ Wiley]

I like the heavy ball because it holds up better under pressure

The reaction of the CB has a linear progression between touch of outside, stun and touch of inside, and it varies with angles and speeds. This is a known physics fact and known to good players who have tested it. TOI simply comes off the rail a bit squarer and slower.

The TOI gives the cue ball a heavier feel, while spinning the ball into position gives it a lighter feel. The touch of inside makes the cue ball look like it's "floating" into position, and sometimes it's referred to as "having the cue ball on a string"....it has a different look after contact than the regular spinning shot that many people use.

I like the heavy ball because it holds up better under pressure, although on new, fast cloth it's not as big of an advantage, especially when not playing on Gold Crowns. Most gambling matches are played in pool rooms where the cloth is worn and a bit slower.

 

[Colin Colenso]

The TOI gives the cue ball a heavier feel, while spinning the ball into position gives it a lighter feel. The touch of inside makes the cue ball look like it's "floating" into position, and sometimes it's referred to as "having the cue ball on a string"....it has a different look after contact than the regular spinning shot that many people use.

I like the heavy ball because it holds up better under pressure, although on new, fast cloth it's not as big of an advantage, especially when not playing on Gold Crowns. Most gambling matches are played in pool rooms where the cloth is worn and a bit slower.

I prefer the game played on older worn tables, where the CB grips the rails. I played on the IPT and the rails would hardly take side at all. My CB control went down 50%, which pretty much stuffed up most outs... obviously a lack of experience with newly clothed US tables.

I do get your point re firmer shots coming off the rails softer, hence floating. This can have advantages on some shots.