Bonus Ball...Revisited--AGAIN !

SJDinPHX

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JCIN said:
All I know is what would of happened to me if I pulled any single one of the moves BB management has pulled on the players and fans. From making players show up knowing they were not going to play to "the check is in the mail" to charging people for a whole season then leaving them in limbo for months.

I guess if you sell the dream hard enough to desperate people they will forgive all sins. <--The 'dream' was OK, BB is not a bad game..Its everything else that really sucked, big time !

One thing is certain. Whoever is finding investors for BB is a damn genius to sell that same crap over and over again.
Click to expand...

Perfect assessment, Justin !.. I am going to try one more time, to express my thoughts on the subject, and then I promise
to drop it !..It seems to be falling on deaf ears anyway...If there is EVER going to be mass acceptance of any form of pool,
it is NOT going to be one pocket (my favorite) or 9 or 10 ball, and it is sure as hell is NOT going to be Bonus Ball !

There is only one game, that EVERYONE knows how to play, and that is 8 ball..Even Trudeau (with good advice from Mike Siegel) saw that, from day one !.. Every man on the street knows the basics, and it is a very good game, when played at the professional level. To make it a little more challenging for the pro's there are many simple 'tweaks' that could be put in play (last pocket, bank the 8, etc.) without losing its simplicity.

For the most part, the players (not all) who are in love with BB, have never excelled at one pocket !..They are finally experiencing a game, where intelligent safety play, is rewarded..They also appear to be blind to the fact, that except for us hardcore guys, who understand all the intricacies of ALL the different games... pool is NOT a very exciting spectator sport..How many times have we heard.."Big deal, he had 'em all straight in" !

There are numerous seldom promoted, sports/games, that have much more spectator appeal, then pool...Do you think the average man on the street, (not a pool degenerate) would not rather watch a 'well played game of 'hand ball' or even 'arm wrestling', than a pool game ?..We need to face those facts !

I have no crystal ball, to determine what it will take to turn that around !..I do know, FOR SURE, that inventing a new, even more confusing game, is not the answer..We already have about fifty regularly played games, played on a dozen different sized tables, and nothing has REALLY caught on yet !.. Maybe a reality type show, IS our only hope ?

So Lenny, Roger, Scott, Schmidt, CJ...Give it a rest !..'Bonus Ball' (or 2 shot foul 9ball)..will NEVER be pool's savior !..It is pretty obvious, it cannot even sustain itself !... Like Justin said, Mr. Cibarok must be the worlds greatest salesman !..Lets hope someday he will get on board, and promote a pool concept that actually works.
 
Last edited:
SJDinPHX said:
Perfect assessment, Justin !.. I am going to try one more time, to express my thoughts on the subject, and then I promise
to drop it !..It seems to be falling on deaf ears anyway...If there is EVER going to be mass acceptance of any form of pool,
it is NOT going to be one pocket (my favorite) or 9 or 10 ball, and it is sure as hell is NOT going to be Bonus Ball !

There is only one game, that EVERYONE knows how to play, and that is 8 ball..Even Trudeau (with good advice from Mike Siegel) saw that, from day one !.. Every man on the street knows the basics, and it is a very good game, when played at the professional level. To make it a little more challenging for the pro's there are many simple 'tweaks' that could be put in play (last pocket, bank the 8, etc.) without losing its simplicity.

For the most part, the players (not all) who are in love with the BB, have never excelled at one pocket !..They are finally experiencing a game, where intelligent safety play, is rewarded..They also appear to be blind to the fact, that except for us hardcore guys, who understand all the intricacies of ALL the different games... pool is NOT a very exciting spectator sport..How many times have we heard.."Big deal, he had 'em all straight in" !

There are numerous seldom promoted, sports/games, that have much more spectator appeal, then pool...Do you think the average man on the street, (not a pool degenerate) would not rather watch a 'well played game of 'hand ball' or even 'arm wrestling', than a pool game ?..We need to face those facts !

I have no crystal ball, to determine what it will take to turn that around !..I do know, FOR SURE, that inventing a new, even more confusing game, is not the answer..We already have about fifty regularly played games, played on a dozen different sized tables, and nothing has REALLY caught on yet !.. Maybe a reality type show, IS our only hope ?

So Lenny, Roger, Scott, Schmidt, CJ...Give it a rest !..'Bonus Ball' (or 2 shot foul 9ball)..will NEVER be pool's savior !..It is pretty obvious, it cannot even sustain itself !... Like Justin said, Mr. Cibarok must be the worlds greatest salesman !..Lets hope someday he will get on board, and promote a pool concept that actually works.
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely, Dick, that the masses aren't now, never have been, nor will they ever be interested in watching 1pkt. As a straight pool purist, I'll also have to admit that the only game that has mass appeal is 8ball. Outside of that, pool has very little chance of ascending to poker's popularity. With that said, I commend Larry for taking a shot here. His business plan has been flawed, but his intentions are good. For that, BB has my support, even though I acknowledge it has little chance of success. My best friend plays on one of the teams, and for his sake, and the sake of the the other pros, I hope at least something positive comes from this experience, aside from a few checks.
 
NYC cue dude said:
I agree with you completely, Dick, that the masses aren't now, never have been, nor will they ever be interested in watching 1pkt. As a straight pool purist, I'll also have to admit that the only game that has mass appeal is 8ball. Outside of that, pool has very little chance of ascending to poker's popularity. With that said, I commend Larry for taking a shot here. His business plan has been flawed, but his intentions are good. For that, BB has my support, even though I acknowledge it has little chance of success. My best friend plays on one of the teams, and for his sake, and the sake of the the other pros, I hope at least something positive comes from this experience, aside from a few checks.
Click to expand...

Thanks for somewhat agreeing with me NYC..I have several good friends heavily involved in Bonus Ball, (Scott, Fast Lenny to name a few)..I get a lot of flak for knocking the game to them, but I am trying to prepare them for the inevitable..The thing that has most aggravated me about the whole thing, is the way it has, and continues to be, the most horribly presented business model I have ever seen !..(not to mention some outright lying !)

Pool player's are good at overlooking business decisions !..I'm just trying to convince them, that "I" have a better chance of knocking out Mike Tyson, in the first round, than BB has of succeeding !..Sad to say, but NBC, or HBO in prime time, could not save it..Much less ESPN 3 !

image014.jpg
 
Last edited:
The problem I have is this...

The only problem I have is this.

When people come on and say that something new and different doesn't have a hope of success. People who say this don't know their dick from a flag pole.

The only thing you KNOW won't be a success is what has already been tried. Even that isn't necessarily true because climates change. You SURELY don't know that something new and different won't work.

Things work all the time that are horrible and have no intrinsic value. IT is called marketing. You get the right marketing behind ANYTHING and it can be successful.

The other problem I have is people saying that it is a horrible game or that anyone who says they like it, must be getting paid.

I would love bonus ball to become a success. One reason is that I love pool and want anything to do with pool to become a success. Another reason is that I love the game.

I don't believe there is any game that better incorporates the best aspects of the best games in a way that can be enjoyable to watch.

How anyone who loves pool and sweating sports matches could watch the playoffs and not absolutely love this game is beyond me.

It is designed to cause turnovers and punish errors, both in execution, but more importantly in decision making.

The team aspect makes it more marketable than any other pool game around.

Yes there have been issues with BB getting started, but most would have bet against the playoffs even happening and would've bet against even the finals aired on a major network(even a minor aspect of a major network like espn3) and especially LIVE!

Now we have people saying that only 8 ball has a chance to succeed. What a joke. Those are probably the same people that were shooting down the IPT when it came along.

Jaden
 
I disagree.

Straightpool_99 said:
Jaden please read the thread I made on power snooker. This game had Barry Hearn organizing it, and a lot of promotion. Even in a country that is mad about snooker on tv, it failed (although I found that there are plans for another tournament).IMHO if there is another tournament it is just because of sheer stubbornness from Hearn. It's similarities to Bonus Ball are so many it's uncanny there's even a bonus ball (power ball).

Not all predictions about the failure of a particular venture is about being a negative person. If a person says he is going to jump the english channel with a longjump, one is right to be sceptical, no matter how it is worded. Sometimes the experience is the teacher. Pool has been on tv and failed. Even 8 ball (IPT) failed. Womens pool failed. Power snooker failed. Of course you can say that for every successful venture there are thousands of failures. And you are right.

But in the case of Bonus Ball the person jumping the english channel does not even have a running start. He's wearing lead boots and is buried to the neck in sand. The people running it have proved to be clueless about marketing and public relations even though they have redeemed themselves a little bit by getting on tv.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvk2wNWmB20
Click to expand...

Bonus ball has done something that NO other pool venture has done. They have a better chance at success for this ONE reason than any other pool that has aired on television, with the exception of the Mosconi cup which has been hugely successful in Europe and with more interest in pool in the US would be more successful here.

They have created teams. It was a mistake to have a single venue in Vegas. They needed to go to the individual locations, have the ability to have more people in seats and use traditional marketing to get the locals behind the matches.

I understand WHY they did it that way, the way to do it right was WAY more expensive. But it was the wrong way.

You have to create a connection with potential audiences in your marketing. Once you do that, you can create an audience for it.

Teams based in regional locations is the way to do that.

Long before Bonus Ball, I had the idea to create a team based 10 ball match up. I even talked at length about it with Mark Griffin.

I think it is a mistake to try and go straight to tv. You have to market it in a way to get butts in seats just like every successful sports did when starting out.

But with teams that people can associate with and get behind, BB, has the highest chance of success of any attempt thus far. They haven't showed an ability to properly market it, so I don't know that they have a high chance of success, but the potential is there.

I also think that having a new type of game is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

It encourages people, once captured by associating with their home team, to become engrossed and try to understand the game.

While the nuances of BB can be difficult to grasp, the commentators have been fairly good at explaining them, and it really isn't that difficult to understand and to start to see things yourself (for laymen). At least it is not as difficult as say a game like one pocket or 14.1.

For those games to be properly explained, it cannot be done in real time.

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
The only problem I have is this.

When people come on and say that something new and different doesn't have a hope of success. People who say this don't know their dick from a flag pole.

The only thing you KNOW won't be a success is what has already been tried. Even that isn't necessarily true because climates change. You SURELY don't know that something new and different won't work.

Things work all the time that are horrible and have no intrinsic value. IT is called marketing. You get the right marketing behind ANYTHING and it can be successful.

The other problem I have is people saying that it is a horrible game or that anyone who says they like it, must be getting paid.

I would love bonus ball to become a success. One reason is that I love pool and want anything to do with pool to become a success. Another reason is that I love the game.

I don't believe there is any game that better incorporates the best aspects of the best games in a way that can be enjoyable to watch.

How anyone who loves pool and sweating sports matches could watch the playoffs and not absolutely love this game is beyond me.

It is designed to cause turnovers and punish errors, both in execution, but more importantly in decision making.

The team aspect makes it more marketable than any other pool game around.

Yes there have been issues with BB getting started, but most would have bet against the playoffs even happening and would've bet against even the finals aired on a major network(even a minor aspect of a major network like espn3) and especially LIVE!

Now we have people saying that only 8 ball has a chance to succeed. What a joke. Those are probably the same people that were shooting down the IPT when it came along.

Jaden
Click to expand...

You've misunderstood me. I'm rooting for BB's success. I have an emotional interest. I can't say I'm hopeful, but I'll be disappointed if it ultimately fails.

As far as 8 is concerned, I base my opinion on 30 years involved in the game. The IPT would most certainly would have been successful had our govt not stepped in to outlaw Internet gambling. That was their downfall, which was separate to the the special kind of scumbag Trudeau was. It would have been successful despite his involvement.

Now, as far as how to right our ship is concerned, I think the answer lies in getting our country's amateur league championships televised can be very successful. Televising these tournaments can attract the majority of today's players. They need to be conditioned to watching pool on TV. The average guy will watch because they know it could've been them and might next year. That's what made poker popular. A regular joe could win. After pool gets reintroduced, it'll be easier to transition to showing the top level pros, too.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Thanks for somewhat agreeing with me NYC..I have several good friends heavily involved in Bonus Ball, (Scott, Fast Lenny to name a few)..I get a lot of flak for knocking the game to them, but I am trying to prepare them for the inevitable..The thing that has most aggravated me about the whole thing, is the way it has, and continues to be, the most horribly presented business model I have ever seen !..(not to mention some outright lying !)

Pool player's are good at overlooking business decisions !..I'm just trying to convince them, that "I" have a better chance of knocking out Mike Tyson, in the first round, than BB has of succeeding !..Sad to say, but NBC, or HBO in prime time, could not save it..Much less ESPN 3 !

View attachment 318069
Click to expand...

But I don't understand why you've got to be THAT guy. All these guys are adults. Let them learn on their own. Just be their with your friendship, whether it works out or not. No one is forcing you to be the contrarian.
 
Jaden said:
The only problem I have is this.

When people come on and say that something new and different doesn't have a hope of success. People who say this don't know their dick from a flag pole.

The only thing you KNOW won't be a success is what has already been tried. Even that isn't necessarily true because climates change. You SURELY don't know that something new and different won't work.

Things work all the time that are horrible and have no intrinsic value. IT is called marketing. You get the right marketing behind ANYTHING and it can be successful.

The other problem I have is people saying that it is a horrible game or that anyone who says they like it, must be getting paid.

I would love bonus ball to become a success. One reason is that I love pool and want anything to do with pool to become a success. Another reason is that I love the game.

I don't believe there is any game that better incorporates the best aspects of the best games in a way that can be enjoyable to watch.

How anyone who loves pool and sweating sports matches could watch the playoffs and not absolutely love this game is beyond me.

It is designed to cause turnovers and punish errors, both in execution, but more importantly in decision making.

The team aspect makes it more marketable than any other pool game around.

Yes there have been issues with BB getting started, but most would have bet against the playoffs even happening and would've bet against even the finals aired on a major network(even a minor aspect of a major network like espn3) and especially LIVE!

Now we have people saying that only 8 ball has a chance to succeed. What a joke. Those are probably the same people that were shooting down the IPT when it came along.

Jaden
Click to expand...

The current crop of Europeans didn't grow up with the lore of the sharp hustler that we Americans labor under. Their experience makes them more amenable to team play.

If bonus ball does nothing else, perhaps it will succeed in bringing our players closer together. And that may be just what the doctor ordered to make America competitive again in the Mosconi cup. Just a thought....
 
NYC cue dude said:
But I don't understand why you've got to be THAT guy. All these guys are adults. Let them learn on their own. Just be their with your friendship, whether it works out or not. No one is forcing you to be the contrarian.
Click to expand...

It is not a matter of being a contrarian, it is a matter of FACTS !..I hate to see anyone, especially a friend, be deceived, lied to and taken advantage of..It would be fine with me, if Bonus Ball proved to be the thing that brought pool to the masses..
Is it wrong to say I don't think it has a prayer of doing that ?.. I am only expressing my very educated opinion.. If I'm proven wrong, I will be more than happy to admit it.. I would lay very big $$$ odds, on that NOT happening, but I would never find anyone foolish enough to take my bet !

I was against it from time I first saw the, "screw everyone else in the business" way it was being presented !..The one or two good things about BB, could NEVER overcome all the negatives.. I would like ANYONE to show me, where ALL my concerns and doubts, have not PROVEN to be true !..I am also (like Mark and Justin) amazed that there are grown men, continuing to sink untold thousands into this ill conceived venture..It will eventually become just another 'nail in the coffin' for the game I love as much, (or more) than ANYONE who is naïve enough to think that Bonus Ball, has even a remote chance of succeeding !
 
"Think about it, hot, young women bending over tables and still they could not get enough old perverts to watch, for it to be profitable."

I always watched the pro women play on TV to watch the matches. Now if one of them was playing in a micro-mini this old pervert would miss a lot of the shots. But that would never happen as the WPBA had a dress code from the 1960's. :(. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
"Think about it, hot, young women bending over tables and still they could not get enough old perverts to watch, for it to be profitable."

I always watched the pro women play on TV to watch the matches. Now if one of them was playing in a micro-mini this old pervert would miss a lot of the shots. But that would never happen as the WPBA had a dress code from the 1960's. :(. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

Let me get this straight Johnny...You are saying you would rather watch hot chicks, (who can't make a ball).. than
watch Scott Frost, coaching Tommy Kennedy at Bogus Ball ?..(ME TOO !) :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
Lots of good ideas here.

Strangely enough I agree with most of them.

I do see the advantage, and I had not thought of was, the local support. This assumes that the Atlanta team all lived in Atlanta and didnt just travel to Atlanta for the matches. Basically, they could live, work, etc. and maybe have the matches on the weekends, with fans etc. Some weekend they travel away, and some weekends they play at home.

I am living in Charleston West Virginia, pretty much the most nowhere place I have ever lived, and they have a minor league baseball team here. Maybe we need to think like that.

Example,
"So what you doing this weekend?"
"Well NY is coming into to play OUR Atlanta Scorpions, I was thinking it might be fun to see Earl and his team play"

Maybe the approach would be to try to get local TV to pick it up and then get bigger, instead of trying to get national from the get go. The key is advertisers, especially non pool advertisers.

I do think this is a good discussion.

Ken
 
Ken_4fun said:
Lots of good ideas here.

Strangely enough I agree with most of them.

I do see the advantage, and I had not thought of was, the local support. This assumes that the Atlanta team all lived in Atlanta and didnt just travel to Atlanta for the matches. Basically, they could live, work, etc. and maybe have the matches on the weekends, with fans etc. Some weekend they travel away, and some weekends they play at home.

I am living in Charleston West Virginia, pretty much the most nowhere place I have ever lived, and they have a minor league baseball team here. Maybe we need to think like that.

Example,
"So what you doing this weekend?"
"Well NY is coming into to play OUR Atlanta Scorpions, I was thinking it might be fun to see Earl and his team play"

Maybe the approach would be to try to get local TV to pick it up and then get bigger, instead of trying to get national from the get go. The key is advertisers, especially non pool advertisers.

I do think this is a good discussion.

Ken
Click to expand...

Good point, good idea. Could their be enough spectators to offset travel costs etc.? Probably not but whenever the Toronto Blue Sharks were at home against whomever, I would want to be there.
 
Ken_4fun said:
Lots of good ideas here.

Strangely enough I agree with most of them.

I do see the advantage, and I had not thought of was, the local support. This assumes that the Atlanta team all lived in Atlanta and didnt just travel to Atlanta for the matches. Basically, they could live, work, etc. and maybe have the matches on the weekends, with fans etc. Some weekend they travel away, and some weekends they play at home.

I am living in Charleston West Virginia, pretty much the most nowhere place I have ever lived, and they have a minor league baseball team here. Maybe we need to think like that.

Example,
"So what you doing this weekend?"
"Well NY is coming into to play OUR Atlanta Scorpions, I was thinking it might be fun to see Earl and his team play"

Maybe the approach would be to try to get local TV to pick it up and then get bigger, instead of trying to get national from the get go. The key is advertisers, especially non pool advertisers.

I do think this is a good discussion.

Ken
Click to expand...

I think the long-term ideal of the WPBL has always been to have teams based right in their home towns and then have them traveling to play the other teams, just as all other sports do. For right now, though, it's impossible to do it that way, so the next best option was to name the teams after different cities, but have them play in one location. If the league survives and thrives, the moves to the different locales will come later.

Roger
 
What I had conceived was this...

thewhiffer said:
Good point, good idea. Could their be enough spectators to offset travel costs etc.? Probably not but whenever the Toronto Blue Sharks were at home against whomever, I would want to be there.
Click to expand...

I had conceived a trial run of San Diego and Los Angeles. Five man teams like Mosconi cup. To start by having team captains choose two other players and have a tournament where the top two finishers round off the team, but eventually have team owners that would bring in players like in other team based sports. Introducing new teams as success allows.

On a Saturday have the two teams match up. Use traditional print and radio advertising with and word of mouth (especially to the leagues) to get people to buy (reasonably priced tickets).

Have concessions, and a prize fund of $25,000. 3500 to each winning player and 1500 to each losing player. total costs would be ~35-45K.

At $15 a ticket you would need to get 4500-5000 people to make it a success.

With the right promotion, I think this is doable, but no one will know if they don't try; however, when it takes close to 50K to do that with no reasonable guarantee of a ROI it's not really simple.

Jaden
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top