My theory on Deflection

[TATE]

I use to have the same belief before I knew what deflection was. I didn't learn what deflection was until 2011. So for the first 17 years I played,in my mind I wasn't compensating for deflection at all. Now that I know I think it's pretty awesome how much you compensate when using a half or full tip of inside English.

What Donnie has said in this thread has been right on the money. The better the player, the more likely they are to be aware of the differences in shaft squirt and their own performance.

That being said, not all top level players perform best with a low squirt shaft. Some don't play to their maximum efficiency for some reason with them. I know for a fact several pro caliber players who dropped their perfectly good Predators after a year or two in favor of a conventional shaft because they felt their game had eroded.

Some conventional shafts are also low squirt - it's just not as easy to find one as it is an OB, Tiger or Predator.

 

[dr_dave]

That is an excellent question. The answer isn't as simple as you might think. The carbon-fiber shaft can be light close to the tip, reducing the effective endmass. Howerver, it can also be very stiff, which allows the effect of the CB hit to be "felt" further down the shaft, which increases the effective endmass. For more info, see the 2nd paragraph on the endmass and stffness resource page.

Another potential issue with carbon-fiber shafts is that they don't flex as much during and after a hit, so when you apply extreme spin (side, bottom or top), where the CB doesn't move away from the tip as quickly, there is a chance for a double-hit (which won't be directly noticeable, but the CB will appear to deflect or squirt more than expected). A maple shaft flexes away from the CB providing clearance as the cue decelerates. If the end of the shaft is too stiff, this doesn't happen as well and a double hit can occur at large tip offsets. For related info, see:

"Coriolis was brilliant ... but he didn't have a high-speed camera - Part IV: maximum cue tip offset" (BD, October, 2005)
cue vibration resource page
maximum sidespin resource page

Regards,
Dave

 

[Matt]

I agree that it's all about skill and practice. I play with a 70 year old Rambow, and the shaft is down to 11 mm. It's extremely whippy, and I suppose there's a lot of deflection. But I love it, and play very well. I can't imagine playing with anything much different. In the 70's I saw a geat player named, Chuck Morgan grab a house cue off the wall and run around 250 balls. In golf there are new drivers made every year that claim to be the best, But The best golf I ever played was when the clubheads were wooden, and small. However I was also younger. I truly do not believe equiptment is the way to try to improve. Just practice. You will play better in time.

I'm sure one of these days the golf pros will see the light and pick up a set of 30 year old clubs from the secondhand store.

I can understand how some people don't think it's worth the money or adjustment period to play with a LD shaft, but they are proven to be more forgiving than a standard shaft, and it's not fair to new players or the makers of LD shafts to suggest otherwise. If you're missing by a diamond every time you try to spin the ball, it's not going to matter, but for those times where you have aimed correctly and cued poorly, the ball might just go in instead of rattle if you're playing with an LD shaft. Is that worth playing with an LD shaft? Decide for yourself, but as an amateur player that doesn't mind spending a few extra bucks on an already expensive hobby, I'll stick with mine.

 

[Roger Long]

I only ever use parallel english and I don't compensate at all for CB squirt. I use a pretty long bridge as well, and my cue shaft is 4.3 oz and 12.5mm at the tip, so it has plenty of endmass to cause problems.

I tried using BHE and I miss the ball by a mile. I started a thread on this last year and the best advice I got was that my brain somehow was taking over, and that was a good thing, and that I shouldn't over-think it and try to correct it.

Of course, I couldn't do that, so I set up shots across table that I thought were aimed spot on to a diamond using two full tips of english on either side and had my wife take a photo of me from across the table. Each time I hit the diamond smack dab in the middle with the CB, and each photo showed clearly that the stick was not aligned where I thought it was aimed, but I was compensating a fair amount for squirt and could not tell I was doing it.

We're all wired differently. Why not go with what's good enough and live with it if it's working for you? As the saying goes, the enemy of good is perfect.

I will positively never invest in a LD shaft, no matter how low the deflection or how inexpensive it is, but I'd probably pay dearly for a sweet custom maple shaft by a great maker if I had a good enough cue to screw it onto. Now, if somebody comes out with a low swerve shaft, well, I'm all over that idea. Lol

My experiences are identical to yours. I once thought that I was getting almost zero cue ball deflection as long as I contacted the ball above its horizontal center. Like yourself, I could line up a shot using parallel English and send the cue ball straight to the target. Dr. Dave and Patrick Johnson tried to tell me that the squirt was still present, but that my subconscious mind was compensating for it. I didn't believe them until I built a device that would keep the cue on a parallel line to the intended line of travel. That's when I found out that they were correct. I haven't filmed myself shooting, but I now believe that what I do is "dial in" whatever amount of BHE I need to get the cue ball to go to where I want it to go. And I'm not even aware that I'm doing it!

Also, like yourself, I am not a fan of LD shafts. Why not? Well, let's look at it this way: Say my shaft causes 1-inch deflection on a particular shot, whereas a LD shaft would cause only 1/2-inch on the same shot. Sure, I would have to compensate for only half as much deflection with the LD shaft, but if my subconscious mind has been programmed for twice as much on any given shot, then that's just the way it is, and that's the way I want it to stay.. Why would I want to be forced to learn how to aim every shot all over again?

But this is just my personal opinion. Everyone else is free to make their own choices, of course. As a matter of fact, I sell billiard equipment, so I'd be more than happy to sell anyone here any LD shaft they're looking for.

Roger

 

[BRussell]

Which of these statements is true?

1. Pool is a game of skill, and no amount of equipment changes will make you play well if you suck.
2. LD shafts are a bit better at sending the cue ball where you point them than standard shafts.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

That is an excellent question. The answer isn't as simple as you might think. The carbon-fiber shaft can be light close to the tip, reducing the effective endmass. Howerver, it can also be very stiff, which allows the effect of the CB hit to be "felt" further down the shaft, which increases the effective endmass. For more info, see the 2nd paragraph on the endmass and stffness resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave

I was thinking of that special cue that Florian Kohler uses. I have no idea about the end mass of that cue, nor do I know what the core is made of, but it must be pretty stiff with that Kevlar/carbon fiber cloth weave. I know guys up in Lake Placid that use that stuff for the gunwales of their ultralight pack canoes and that is some pretty rigid stuff in the layup they use. Seems Florian would not want to deal with more deflection than is necessary since he spins the cover off the ball and still needs it to go exactly where he needs it to go.

BTW what exactly are transverse elastic waves? How fast do they travel? What direction do they move in? Can they be easily felt by the cueist? Can it be that they are responsible for the "hit" the player feels when he strokes the ball?

I hope these are all excellent questions as well. I enjoy playing "Stump the Engineer", even if I never win.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Which of these statements is true?

1. Pool is a game of skill, and no amount of equipment changes will make you play well if you suck.
2. LD shafts are a bit better at sending the cue ball where you point them than standard shafts.

Neither statement is true.

 

[Horsetrader]

Come on RJ... you know what I meant...

Stop continually buying shafts, in hopes that it will make you a world beater... familiarity with your equipment, confidence in your ability, and PRACTICE, is the only real way to be a champion.

Amen brother!

 

[bdorman]

This argument reminds me of the ones I used to have with friends about anti-lock brakes. Everyone loves them...except me.

I did a couple of years of racecar driving. I know what to expect when the brakes lock up and how to use brake lock-up to get the car where I want it to go.

Anti-lock brakes are just an expensive gimmick that the car companies are "hyping" on an unsuspecting public.

And the lazy, stupid public is buying it because it wants everything to be easy. Learn how to lock up the brakes, people! Stop thinking that spending more money will make you a better driver.

Rant out.

 

[shinobi]

One thing I like about big name brand shafts like Predator and OB is, I can switch cues like water, and easily find a compatible Predator or OB to put on it, and my aiming is the same.

I can also switch between LD shafts from Predator and OB and not need to adjust my aiming particularly, because they deflect within such a close range.

I can borrow a cue from a friend and more often than not, they are using an LD shaft. No adjustment needed.

When I want to keep a cue in my trunk for a few days for impromptu play, I put a brand-name LD shaft on a cheap sneaky pete cue. No adjustment needed.

If you play with a custom pool shaft by "Maker X", sometimes...
1) Maker X shafts may change over time
2) Maker X may go out of business

...which would mean that conceivably, at some point you'd need to re-learn aiming when changing cues/shafts, unless you used that cue 100% of the time until death do us part.

A lot of the custom makers are attempting to incorporate LD into their shafts, too.

For the budget minded, I have yet to try a CueTec R360 or Players LD shaft, so I have no idea how well or how consistent they perform.

 

[shinobi]

This argument reminds me of the ones I used to have with friends about anti-lock brakes. Everyone loves them...except me.

I did a couple of years of racecar driving. I know what to expect when the brakes lock up and how to use brake lock-up to get the car where I want it to go.

Anti-lock brakes are just an expensive gimmick that the car companies are "hyping" on an unsuspecting public.

And the lazy, stupid public is buying it because it wants everything to be easy. Learn how to lock up the brakes, people! Stop thinking that spending more money will make you a better driver.

Rant out.

ABS technology gets better all the time. There are now only limited situations where a professional driver can match or beat a good ABS system.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The big problem with equipment improvement that I see is that if all that high-tech stuff really improves your playing, it does so for everybody that has the money to buy it. Pretty soon, everybody has it and the standard is raised across the board. Now all the C players are shooting like B players, but the same guys still beat the same other guys every day of the week all other things equal. Who gains from that? The equipment makers, not you.

Soon you absolutely have to have that stuff or get left behind. Forget pool equipment, we're still in the Stone Age. Look at the recent Sochi Games, with the Space Age biathlon guns, special speed skates, skis, snowboards, visors, BMW carbon fiber bobsleds, etc. Are these guys really better than the athletes of old? How would we ever tell?

Just give a look at a modern Olympic archery bow and then look at a master Zen archer making the same shot with almost the same accuracy (and probably a lot more grace under fire) and ask yourself who you are more in awe of.

Or maybe this guy (the action begins at 1:45).

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU

So, is it the Hun or is it the arrow?

 

[CreeDo]

Which of these statements is true?

1. Pool is a game of skill, and no amount of equipment changes will make you play well if you suck.
2. LD shafts are a bit better at sending the cue ball where you point them than standard shafts.

Neither statement is true.

The LD shaft sends the ball closer to where you are pointing the stick.
Not EXACTLY where you're pointing, but closer than non-LD shafts.
I assume you're quibbling over his wording and not saying the LD shaft doesn't deflect less.

 

[dr_dave]

That is an excellent question. The answer isn't as simple as you might think. The carbon-fiber shaft can be light close to the tip, reducing the effective endmass. Howerver, it can also be very stiff, which allows the effect of the CB hit to be "felt" further down the shaft, which increases the effective endmass. For more info, see the 2nd paragraph on the endmass and stffness resource page.

I was thinking of that special cue that Florian Kohler uses. I have no idea about the end mass of that cue, nor do I know what the core is made of, but it must be pretty stiff with that Kevlar/carbon fiber cloth weave. I know guys up in Lake Placid that use that stuff for the gunwales of their ultralight pack canoes and that is some pretty rigid stuff in the layup they use. Seems Florian would not want to deal with more deflection than is necessary since he spins the cover off the ball and still needs it to go exactly where he needs it to go.

I would guess that most masse cues, even the carbon-fiber ones, have significant endmass and squirt (AKA "cue ball deflection"). They are usually very stiff (especially with carbon fiber) and beefy. Luckily, squirt is not much of an issue with the aiming of most powerful masse trick shots.

Regards,
Dave

 

[CreeDo]

The big problem with equipment improvement that I see is that if all that high-tech stuff really improves your playing, it does so for everybody that has the money to buy it. Pretty soon, everybody has it and the standard is raised across the board. Now all the C players are shooting like B players, but the same guys still beat the same other guys every day of the week all other things equal. Who gains from that? The equipment makers, not you.

?

If I play better, (for example I'm a C who is now shooting like a B) then I gained from it.
Just because other people got better too, doesn't mean my personal improvement
never happened or doesn't matter. It matters to me.

But of course, nobody is saying "instant B player, just add shaft!".

The point is not "I must have LD or I can't hang with the best",
it's "LD might shorten my learning curve". That's all.

LD shafts are not like an LZR swimsuit.

 

[Cornerman]

BTW what exactly are transverse elastic waves? How fast do they travel? What direction do they move in? Can they be easily felt by the cueist? Can it be that they are responsible for the "hit" the player feels when he strokes the ball?

The transverse is the wave down the shaft created by the side load (The lateral force) from the off-center. In slow motion, you can see the transverse wave as the shaft bends to the side. The amount of bend you can see while the tip is in contact is theoretically the amount of mass of the shaft "in effect" of the cue tip collision.

This transverse wave is slow at about 3-5" per millisecond or there about. Since the contact time is measure at 1 - 1.5 milliseconds, we can hand-wavingly say that the first 5 or 8" of the shaft is the most important as far as the amount mass "in effect" is concerned.

Freddie <~~~ same ol', same ol'

 

[dr_dave]

BTW what exactly are transverse elastic waves?

It is the sideways deformation of the cue, which starts at the tip and works its way toward the butt. For video illustrations, see the cue vibration resource page.

How fast do they travel?

I don't know off hand, but some of the cue vibration videos show the running time, so you can see for yourself.

What direction do they move in?

transverse = sideways = perpendicular to the cue

Can they be easily felt by the cueist?

With a firm shot with and off-center hit, you definitely feel the transverse wave in your bridge hand. In fact, when I practice power draw shots with my open bridge, my index finger usually hurts after a while due to the powerful downward motion of the cue, which hyper-extends my finger a little. For an illustration of the wave and when the bridge feels it, see part 2 of my grip-bridge video starting at the 2:32 point.

Can it be that they are responsible for the "hit" the player feels when he strokes the ball?

The "hit" and "feel" depends on many factors. For more info, see the "feel," "hit," "feedback," and "playability" resource page.

I hope these are all excellent questions as well.

Not bad.

I enjoy playing "Stump the Engineer", even if I never win.

I enjoy it too ... especially the "never win" part. :grin-square:

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The LD shaft sends the ball closer to where you are pointing the stick.
Not EXACTLY where you're pointing, but closer than non-LD shafts.
I assume you're quibbling over his wording and not saying the LD shaft doesn't deflect less.

Quibbling, yes, but certainly not playing head games.

Where exactly is anybody "aiming" the stick? If you asked me if a machine is throwing the stick directly at the ball which cue will send the ball down the line straighter at a two-tip offset, well, we all know the answer to that question. But we're not machines, we are biological organisms who are largely controlled by anatomy, physiology, our perception, our experience, and some pretty mysterious wetware making decisions we're not even aware of.

As for myself, even if I am using something concrete like the tip of the shaft to aim the ball like Shane does, how can I be sure I'm really lined up the way a machine might be designed to do the same job? If you remember the last podcast when Shane asked Efren if he used his shaft to aim Efren just laughed and asked, "How could I see that from up here?"

 

[BRussell]

Neither statement is true.

I'd love to see you defend that!

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

?

If I play better, (for example I'm a C who is now shooting like a B) then I gained from it.
Just because other people got better too, doesn't mean my personal improvement
never happened or doesn't matter. It matters to me.

But of course, nobody is saying "instant B player, just add shaft!".

The point is not "I must have LD or I can't hang with the best",
it's "LD might shorten my learning curve". That's all.

LD shafts are not like an LZR swimsuit.

Sorry, man, I respect your opinion a lot, but I gotta disagree with you here. They are exactly like a LZR racing suit. Maybe not as pronounced a difference, but if it is true that the best players miss less with LD shafts then you really have to have them because everybody else has them. In a sport where the difference between winning a $40,000 purse and coming in second may be one missed ball, you can't afford to go without. In fact, these are the guys who need them the most, not you, and certainly not me. Shit, you'd prolly whip my ass using the butt of the cue. Or maybe we'd play even then. Does that mean we'd both have the same skill then?