My theory on Deflection

I disagree with this post. This is a pool forum where people exchange ideas and points of view. If someone feels that ld shafts are bunk, they should be allowed to express that opinion. So what if it's negative, you can only express positive opinions on products here now? Do a search for Meucci cues and see the flak they have had to put up with (deservedly so IMHO).

Please let me clarify what I said. I have no problem with anyone having their opinion. In fact, I think sharing can be a very good positive. What I don't think is right, and this is my opinion, is believing everyone else is wrong if they don't agree with me. Doing so, in my opinion is a negative. I don't mind that some players don't like LD products. I actually expect that. But it's ok that some do as well. You can't have one without the other.

The ld-shaft thing has been so over hyped that it is hard to tell what is true and what isn't anymore and manufacturers are to blame. I actually feel that OB is pretty good in this department, though, I can't remember any particularly bad claims in your advertising.

Thank you for recognizing that we don't make crazy exaggerated ads. I would ask, however, for some examples of other ads that have led you to feel this way. To be honest, I'm not aware of any crazy or exaggerated ads. At least not that I recall.

All that nonsensical advertising has done a lot of harm to pool knowledge. Some manufacturers claim you can put more spin on the ball with their shafts, that you'll have better cue ball control, that you will be more accurate etc. IMHO these claims are bogus. The ld shafts help you learn to play with english by reducing the amount of deflection you have to adjust for. That's it. There's no magic, you'll still have to adjust a bit, and in the end you will be at the same level that you would have without an ld shaft. I believe the ultimate level you can reach is only determined by practice and genetics as long as the equipment is above a certain minimum standard. I once saw a guy in a national tournament pick a cue off the wall and run 6 racks with it. Bear in mind that as far as I know he didn't even practice with this cue prior to the game for more than 5 minutes.

I think my comments above apply here as well. I'd really like to see some of the nonsensical ads.

Watch the Zero x videos, listen to John Schmidt and Corey Deuel, When at their level do you think that deflection is even on their mind when they shoot? They just see the shot and shoot it, after thousands of hours of playing with the same cue. Within reason what matter of cue it is is irrelevant, as long as it's design is not seriously flawed.


I'm curious. Have you gone back and looked at John's record of wins? He won the US Open prior to coming on board with us, and that was with his Bobby Hunter cue. But, after coming on board with us, he won several and placed high in a great deal more tournaments than before. He also won several TAR matches with our products. Take a look at Corey's record over the last several years. He's done quite well since he came on board with us. While you're at it, take a look at Alex Pagulayan's record. Other than the last several months in which he hasn't entered any events, he's played exceptionally well with our products. Take a look at our website under the "OB Pro's" section and you'll see other players as well like young Phil Burford, who's a strong up and coming player.

I'll be the first to tell anyone that choosing LD equipment is not a mandatory thing in order to play well. It's certainly not a requirement, and I'm not aware of anyone who has said it was.


In the world of snooker, lots of players play with cheap, ratty cues, many of which are not even close to being straight, and they shoot the lights out with them, because they've had them for years and years. And btw anyone claiming that snooker players don't use english is full of it. Snooker is a hard game, but they have not fallen for the equipment hysteria to the same extent that pool has, so players generally have a different outlook on equipment. Are they wrong? Should everyone start using ld cues for snooker? IMHO, NO!

Lots of people play with ld shafts (including myself) and they do seem to help a bit with the learning curve of english, especially in the beginning, but after you reach a certain level of proficiency, I don't believe ld to be much of a factor anymore. I have non-ld shafts and can switch back and forth, though since I've played mostly with ld-shafts from the beginning I tend to favor the ld. I actually feel that the smaller shaft diameter is the main thing, not the deflection! And that is exactly the op's point: play with what you have and get used to it.

I have agreed from the very beginning with the OP's point about not switching around. It's very hard to get good with anything if you switch around too much.

If you are a beginner and have the money for an ld shaft, you might as well go for it. It'll shorten the learning curve a little bit in my experience. If money is tight, then don't. Don't expect more english or better cue ball control and all that other hogwash. Only your stroke can help with that.



I hope that clears up what I'm trying to say at least.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
JossWest was charging $300.00 for a one piece Maple shaft. Many of the high end cuemakers get around $200.00. Do you whine about them also?

How much did you pay for your last pair of tennis shoes? What do you think they cost to make?

As for cost, since you have no idea the cost/time involved in making them you have no idea whether they are over priced or not. Your price arguments are off the mark, must have been your aim.

Just curious, what is it that you produce?

I also get emails from customers telling me their game has jumped by switching to my LD shafts, such as this - "The SS360 shaft is by far one of the best investment I have made when it comes to playing pool. As an APA player, my skill level went from a 4 to a 7 in 9 ball within 6 months playing with this shaft. I was also awarded Top Gun in my division this past season. It has a nice solid feel to it and it just feels natural and well made. I had a much easier time adjusting to a low deflection shaft with this than my previous Asian made one. Sold that in a heart beat. I highly recommend this shaft if your looking for a high quality, bang for the buck U.S. made LD shaft."
>

If you decide to produce custom cue shafts you have to charge 2 or 3 hundred dollars. There isn't enough of a market to allow for less.

Anyone who pays a lot for something always comes away thinking ooh aahh look what I have, its the best. psychological human nature.

Do you not hear me when I say that even among LD shafts there are a hundred different deflections. That, in and of itself should smack you in the back of the head and say .. oh, oh yeah huh .... aahhh

What to I produce? I produce a pension. A pension from 20 years of listening to crap and putting con men and bullsh!t artists in prison.

I've also been playing this game over 50 years, owned a poolroom with 18 GCs and a bar. Sold lots of those cheapo meuccis back when, to lots of happy people for just a few bucks over cost.

I'm not saying it doesn't cost plenty to make one of those shafts, I'm saying its not worth reinventing the wheel to get the results they produce for the price they cost to people who otherwise can't afford them but buy them looking for a magic bullet without giving them some food for thought.
 
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Another thing I've noticed is that players that don't play at a certain level truly believe there isn't a difference between regular and LD shafts. And some you can't convince. It blows my mind.

Agree it takes very high level of play to know the difference. Not many people know, not even some pros.
 
Read that back to yourself. Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds? Adjust less. In other words you’re still going to miss if you aim at the pocket, just differently. Differently than what? Differently than a standard maple shaft? Differently than some other LD shaft?

You make it sound like there is a conscious and discernable physical measurable adjustment being made with a standard shaft that isn’t being made with an LD shaft. Bullsh!t.

There shouldn’t be any conscious physical adjustment being made with either shaft once you are used to any shaft. You aim and deliver the CB and pocket your shot.

You are absolutely correct, that compensation should be a subconscious action. I don't think anyone is arguing that with you. The difference is that of margin of error. Whether you're compensating for squirt or not, you are human and you do miss. When the margin of error is less, then the error may not put the object ball outside the pocket and it still goes in. Don't over complicate it. It's really very simple.
The funny thing is, I've had countless people have told me that they were able to make that transition, from conscious adjustment to unconscious adjustment, after choosing one of our cue shafts. A transition that they were not able to make before. That's a good thing isn't it? I know that I made that transition long before LD, and it sounds like you might have as well. I'm just happy to see it when others do too.


I said before that within the realm of standard shafts, taking into account tip, taper, diameter, ferrule type, ferrule length, balance, weight, and I suppose another dozen variables there will produce differences in deflection.

The same is true of all the same factors with LD shafts of different types and mfg.

Now, with all those variables, with both types of shaft, with all those options, don’t you suppose there may even be an overlap in how they hit, or how they deflect?

I’ll bet there are some of both type shafts that feel and deflect similar to some of the other type shafts.

The real point is it doesn’t matter. I don’t care what the hell you or anyone else buys, it just pisses me off that they have the balls to charge 2 or 3 hundred dollars for a chunk of wood.

Oh, wait, you’re not only paying for the wood, you’re paying for the R&D, that BTW, failed. Ya see, they still deflect. Oops, we better call them “low deflection” shafts. People will still buy them, not to worry. Sucker born every minute.


I'm quite certain that you don't really understand what it takes to build one of our cue shafts. Maybe not even what it takes to have a successful business and keep your employees paid. But here is what I offer to you. If you can come to Dallas and let me walk you through all that goes into building our cues and cue shafts, I think you might have a different opinion as to whether or not our cues and shafts are just "chunks of wood".
You seem to think that LD shaft companies set out to eliminate cue ball deflection. I don't know about the others, but we certainly never had that expectation. It's simply not possible.


Hey … do what ya want. But if you go buy these gimmick shafts, I got a piece of 30 dollar chalk for ya too!.



All right, enough fun for me.

I have to go to work now.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
A samurai is only as good as his sword......

Musashi fought his most famous duel with a wooden sword he carved himself on the boat ride to the meeting place. His opponent had the reputation as the deadliest swordsman in Japan, but he met his end on the sand despite having the finest steel katana available to him.

Now, about those Indians... ;)
 
I'm quite certain that you don't really understand what it takes to build one of our cue shafts. Maybe not even what it takes to have a successful business and keep your employees paid. But here is what I offer to you. If you can come to Dallas and let me walk you through all that goes into building our cues and cue shafts, I think you might have a different opinion as to whether or not our cues and shafts are just "chunks of wood".
You seem to think that LD shaft companies set out to eliminate cue ball deflection. I don't know about the others, but we certainly never had that expectation. It's simply not possible.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Don't be so certain. Before I changed careers I owned a successful automotive repair facility. Shops from around the area would bring their problem cars to me.

I have custom fabricated tube chassis and motor designs for drag race cars and have races at least a dozen of my own.

I do understand how complex and time consuming it is to custom design something. That however doesn't necessarily justify the end result or cost.

I'm pretty certain that my attempt at reinventing the wheel with a custom designed car wouldn't result in anything that could remotely compare with the quality or dependability of the cookie cutter cars that Detroit pops off the assembly line.

That wouldn't make the time and effort any less. Hell, the pool industry at its highest level is little more than a niche industry considering its consumer base. None of that has anything to do with what I'm saying. Of course you need to charge a lot to maintain a staff and a profit. No one ever said otherwise.

I'm just saying that unless you like novelty, have money to piss away, or realize that you are not buying a magic wand, there is no need to spend a ton of money for a cue stick, let alone a cue shaft.

Now I'm merely a weekend warrior when it comes to pool these days. I'm in my 60s and don't even have the stamina to get out and play much.

I hate those smash em up rotation games that may expose deflection more than a good game of 14.1 or 1pkt. But .. hey, I'll hit ya with a 50 or 60 something ball run with my cheapo cue. You can bet on that.

I suppose being old comes with being frugal to some degree also. I'm not paying 5 bucks for a cup of coffee either.
 
If you can't practice enough ... then low deflection shafts will allow you to miss the pocket by a little less on shots that deflect.

Come on ... listen to you guys. If we agree that all shafts deflect until you get used to them, what the hell is the difference how much you miss by. :killingme:

Listen to you...

The difference, obviously, is that missing by 1/2 inch the ball may still go in. Missing by 2" probably not. Minimizing error is valuable. Its really that simple.

KMRUNOUT
 
Listen to you...

The difference, obviously, is that missing by 1/2 inch the ball may still go in. Missing by 2" probably not. Minimizing error is valuable. Its really that simple.

KMRUNOUT


These nuances are quickly realized and compensated for in our brains without conscious effort whether they be from a standard or LD shaft. We will have to agree to disagree.
 
In my opinion, it is a matter of numbers... when you are aiming to the object ball, you have a margin error of degrees that you think the ball will go to the pocket (not the real margin, just the margin of your mind). For example, if you have to hit 1/2 object ball, you can aim 1/2+0.01 to 1/2-0.01 and you still thinking you are aiming ok. When using side spin, with a LD shaft, that margin is smaller, so you have a smaller range to think about, lets say that the probability of choosing a valid cueball direction is higher.
 
Listen to you...

The difference, obviously, is that missing by 1/2 inch the ball may still go in. Missing by 2" probably not. Minimizing error is valuable. Its really that simple.

KMRUNOUT

:grin:


If you miss a shot by two inches by hitting the cueball in the center...it's not because of the shaft.:grin:
 
I know there is deflection in different shafts.

What I don't like is exaggeration like in this video.

His aim and stroke changes with the none deflection shaft.:mad:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1C_O8AO8yY
For those interested, the following videos might be considered more "realistic" and relevant:

NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II
NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Everyone has a theory about "deflection", "Squirt", "Swerve" et cetera and that's a good thing. Your idea about getting used to a particular shaft is spot on.

I normally look to the best shooters and see what they are shooting with to give me a little guidance as far as what type of shaft I should be using.

It is kind of fun to use different shafts with the Mark Wilson test that he has on his Facebook page concerning pocketing balls with maximum side spin.

JoeyA
 
If you bought a new cue and it deflected more than your old cue. Would you still shoot with it? If you bought a new cue and it deflected less than your old cue. Would you still shoot with it? Forget maple vs LD for a second. Take 10 cues with maple shafts all with the same feel and hit. Forget looks. They may have different pins, joints and ferrules. They all deflect differently. You only care about playability. Which are you going to choose?
 
Read that back to yourself. Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds? Adjust less. In other words you’re still going to miss if you aim at the pocket, just differently. Differently than what? Differently than a standard maple shaft? Differently than some other LD shaft?

What to I produce? I produce a pension. A pension from 20 years of listening to crap and putting con men and bullsh!t artists in prison.

!.

wow. you are stubborn... you never can look at both sides, it was "us" versus "them" mentality back in your days, huh?. But I sort of expect that cause you are the same guy I had to correct on a few "laws" you were also very unfamiliar with after touting your 20 years of experience in NPR...lol So, now OB guys and the rest are "con men" and "scammers" ... classy dude.

And how is it ridiculous. On most shots I don't have to adjust one mm, but on longer shots, with more English, I have to adjust only a little versus a lot with a maple shaft. I don't know if I have to adjust more than other LD shafts cause I only shoot with the same LD shaft only.... crazy huh ?
 
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Everyone has a theory about "deflection", "Squirt", "Swerve" et cetera and that's a good thing. Your idea about getting used to a particular shaft is spot on.

I normally look to the best shooters and see what they are shooting with to give me a little guidance as far as what type of shaft I should be using.

It is kind of fun to use different shafts with the Mark Wilson test that he has on his Facebook page concerning pocketing balls with maximum side spin.

JoeyA

Only issue i have with red highlighted is you do not know where pros are aiming!
 
wow. you are stubborn... you never can look at both sides, it was "us" versus "them" mentality back in your days, huh?. But I sort of expect that cause you are the same guy I had to correct on a few "laws" you were also very unfamiliar with after touting your 20 years of experience in NPR...lol So, now OB guys and the rest are "con men" and "scammers" ... classy dude.

And how is it ridiculous. On most shots I don't have to adjust one mm, but on longer shots, with more English, I have to adjust only a little versus a lot with a maple shaft. I don't know if I have to adjust more than other LD shafts cause I only shoot with the same LD shaft only.... crazy huh ?

Its not adjusting a lot if that is what you are used to. And, I am plenty familiar with the elements of the laws. Your specific statement back then did not deserve further comment.

Go see if you can get someone charged with extortion for demanding your money or you'll call the cops. You might have a half dozen cops spitting up their donuts when you call that one in. Sometimes the literal interpretation of laws are blabbered around by idiot desk jockey lawyers.
 
Yeah, when you've learned to play pro-speed and hit a million balls with a standard shaft, don't switch.

If you're a beginner, though, you might want to choose the one that's going to make it easier to learn and improve. And by "might", I mean "obviously".

-Andrew
I agree. Players who play a lot don't need a LD shaft because they have the natural allowance for deflection in their muscle memory from hitting so many balls, but for us folks who play once or twice a week for a couple of hours a quality LD shaft makes playing with English so much easier. Just my opinion based on my experience. I like the hit of a maple shaft better than my Predator shaft that I play with, but i'm more consistent with my Predator running a rack of balls. I don't play a lot and wish I did, but my pool time is limited and I guess that's why I like to play with my Predator shaft.
 
Go see if you can get someone charged with extortion for demanding your money or you'll call the cops. You might have a half dozen cops spitting up their donuts when you call that one in. Sometimes the literal interpretation of laws are blabbered around by idiot desk jockey lawyers.

Gosh, so you're telling me the collections guys, banks, and others can use the "if you don't pay us, we'll call the police and have you arrested" technique.... If they try it, they won't be employed very long, the company won't like the lawsuit, and possible to be charged with extortion if you don't live in a small town where the cops don't know the laws cause they never bothered to learn them.

20 years experience, huh ?? That's a long time not to pick up a few things !
 
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Well this thread is quite an eye opener! I just purchased an OB classic shaft for my schon, I have NEVER used a LD shaft before, so when I get this shaft tomorrow I will gladly post my results. I have weighed my options for years now on the pros and cons of LD shafts, shooting with an original Schon shaft took some time to get used to, and I plan on making some adjustments with the LD, how much depends on the so called 'hype'
of the LD. I plan on setting up several shots and shooting them with the original shaft and then with the LD to give you guys some real evidence on how much adjustment is needed.
 
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