Ya but you're just a pro player with incredible talent. What would you know about it?
lol!
KMRUNOUT
My theory on Deflection
- Thread starter nineballsafety8
- Start date
Ya but you're just a pro player with incredible talent. What would you know about it?
lol!
KMRUNOUT
Ok the thing that so many seem to misunderstand, which is frustrating because it seems so obvious is this:
No matter what shaft you play with, no one hits the cue ball exactly where they intend 100% of the time. Thus there is a certain percentage of the time when they hit to the left or right of the intended *Cue ball* location. With a LD shaft, this error is minimized. Anyone who says you will "adjust" to the shaft you play with is saying something that is important *ONLY WHEN YOU DO IT RIGHT*. When you hit the spot on the cue ball you intend to hit, and are used to any shaft, the ball is going to go where expected. Is anyone actually disputing that?
The point is, for the many many times you do NOT hit the cueball where intended, a LD shaft will minimize that error. Perhaps to the point that the ball still goes in. This seems like the simplest thing, but I'm baffled how people just refuse to see it.
So you can feel free to "disgree" with me. Although I do not disagree with your statement above, I think I have pointed out why I do not think it is relevant to understanding the value of LD shafts. Its about accuracy *WHEN YOU HIT THE BALL WRONG".
On a side note, I've heard many people say that the principle reason pros miss shots is due to deflection. I don't know if this is accurate or not, but I found it interesting.
So, do we still disagree (not counting that last statement)?
KMRUNOUT
My God, this thread again?
Yeah, some of the pros learned to use and still use non-LD shafts. That's great for them, it is what they are used to, and switching to an LD shaft after learning what they have learned would be as much of an adjustment as when you had the brass ferrule installed.
Regardless, did Ben Hogan have the advantage of cavity back clubs to play with? Of course not, and he was the best of his age. Do the top golfers of today's age use the same clubs that Ben used? Of course not, there is this thing called technology and it tends to improve equipment.
As I have said many times, whatever shaft you get used to is the shaft that is best for you. For new players, it is easier to get used to an LD shaft once they start to use english as it is easier to adjust for english with an LD shaft versus a regular shaft with a hunk of brass on the end of it (using your example). Yes, of course, anyone who is used to something different will probably not appreciate or enjoy an LD shaft as it is an adjustment to their game and they will initially see a dip in their performance as they get used to the new shaft. This does not make LD shafts a gimmick or a con, it just means that for you personally, you don't think you can achieve an advantage from them as you feel that you can get used to playing with any shaft. That may be true for you, but for people that are learning to use spin to control the cue ball position, LD shafts make the process much simpler and quicker to learn.
I've said it before and I will say it again, LD shafts are a god-send for people that are at a certain stage of learning the game and are just starting to use english to control cue ball position. People that have been playing for years will pick up an LD shaft and feel as if they "stink" just because they are different, and I respect that. It doesn't mean that LD shafts are a gimmick though.
Yeah, some of the pros learned to use and still use non-LD shafts. That's great for them, it is what they are used to, and switching to an LD shaft after learning what they have learned would be as much of an adjustment as when you had the brass ferrule installed.
Regardless, did Ben Hogan have the advantage of cavity back clubs to play with? Of course not, and he was the best of his age. Do the top golfers of today's age use the same clubs that Ben used? Of course not, there is this thing called technology and it tends to improve equipment.
As I have said many times, whatever shaft you get used to is the shaft that is best for you. For new players, it is easier to get used to an LD shaft once they start to use english as it is easier to adjust for english with an LD shaft versus a regular shaft with a hunk of brass on the end of it (using your example). Yes, of course, anyone who is used to something different will probably not appreciate or enjoy an LD shaft as it is an adjustment to their game and they will initially see a dip in their performance as they get used to the new shaft. This does not make LD shafts a gimmick or a con, it just means that for you personally, you don't think you can achieve an advantage from them as you feel that you can get used to playing with any shaft. That may be true for you, but for people that are learning to use spin to control the cue ball position, LD shafts make the process much simpler and quicker to learn.
I've said it before and I will say it again, LD shafts are a god-send for people that are at a certain stage of learning the game and are just starting to use english to control cue ball position. People that have been playing for years will pick up an LD shaft and feel as if they "stink" just because they are different, and I respect that. It doesn't mean that LD shafts are a gimmick though.
Some people like to use back-hand english (BHE) to compensate for squirt. BHE works best on many shots when the bridging point is at the pivot point of the shaft. But the pivot point of a low-deflection (low-squirt) shaft is generally farther from the tip of the cue than one would normally like to use for a bridging point. So a regular-deflection shaft, with its shorter pivot point, may work better for the BHE user.
Listen stupid, it kills me to school you for free but this will be my last response.
These crimes, in order to be crimes, need to meet all the elements that constitute a crime.
The primary element for all forms of extortion is, "with intent to extort". That means that before there can be enough probable cause to arrest under any of the other elements provided in the definition of the crime of extortion, you as the arresting officer, has to be able to articulate "intent to extort".
In order to obtain an arrest warrant for the crime of extortion, the police officer needs to articulate in that application for warrant that there was probable cause to believe the actor, with INTENT TO EXTORT, CARRIED OUT THE OTHER ELEMENTS OF THE CRIME.
This kid in question gave up his cue without first receiving payment, NOT WITH THE INTENT TO EXTORT, but with the intent to help someone out.
On the other hand, it seems rather easy to reach the level of proof to obtain a warrant for this other idiot that in fact probable cause did exist to believe there was INTENT TO DEPRIVE a person of his property by never intending to pay for the cue.
That intent is also a primary element of a crime called larceny.
The kid you want to arrest is asking the guy for the money he was promised for the cue. He is explaining to the other party that he wants his money or he is going to call the police.
That is not extortion. That is explaining a fact. There was no initial or scheme put together to extort anything.
There is no crime for being stupid or there might be a waarant out for your arrest.
Perfect explanation. There is one more key to this (secret), i will keep it for the instructors who are making money teaching. But seriously, you nailed it.
Ha, too funny.
You do have a reading comprehension problem I never hinted that I want anyone arrested for extortion in the "cue deal" gone bad.
but the middle man, who brokered the deal did NOT lose a cue, he did not lose any money, and he cannot now go back and threaten to have them arrested for not paying the rightful person who was the owner of said cue.. IT WAS NOT HIS CUE. get it now ?
Oh, and why not address the debt collectors, banks, etc. that I brought up. You think it is a coincidence that NONE of them EVER use the threat of arrest or contacting the police to collect a debt.... hmmmmm, interesting huh ??
Here's a hint, because they are not legally able to do so... why do you think that is.... I can't believe you made it to retirement, but then again, BFE police dept does not require a lot of training or education...
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This is the point I was trying to convey in one of my previous posts, and I think it is the most misunderstood thing about "low deflection" shafts.
Also, citing examples of pros that don't use LD shafts doesn't make any sense when making a recommendation to an amateur. At the pro level, the cuing accuracy is so good that the advantage of an LD shaft is greatly diminished. It still seems like they would still want every advantage possible, but I suppose that their personal preference for a particular cue often outweighs their need for a cue with a wider margin of error.
I know a very good player here in New Orleans who swears there is no such thing as cue ball deflection. He uses a traditional maple shaft and says he is not compensating for any cue ball squirt when he uses sidespin. :withstupid:
JoeyA
And he is right. It's the way he always played and he aims by using memory.
Don't know why people want to deflect from the truth.:yeah:
I'm guessing he uses a short bridge length and applies sidespin with back-hand english. If you come up using that technique, and don't think about mechanics much, it does appear that the cue doesn't deflect with sidespin – because the pivot perfectly cancels out the deflection and the ball goes straight where originally aimed.
Back when I was learning the fundamentals of the game, I had an old-timer, a very good player, try to explain how to apply sidespin – he told me that you twist the cue clockwise for right english, and counter-clockwise for left english, and he sincerely believed that it was the twisting of the cue tip that applied the spin. He conveniently ignored or never noticed that his back hand was moving inwards when twisting his wrist clockwise, and outwards when twisting his wrist counterclockwise, which of course moved the tip right and left of center, respectively.
I think it was Bob Jewett who said it first, but there are basically two types of people – those who "get physics" and those who don't, and nothing you say will convert the latter group to the former group.
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I agree that it's all about skill and practice. I play with a 70 year old Rambow, and the shaft is down to 11 mm. It's extremely whippy, and I suppose there's a lot of deflection. But I love it, and play very well. I can't imagine playing with anything much different. In the 70's I saw a geat player named, Chuck Morgan grab a house cue off the wall and run around 250 balls. In golf there are new drivers made every year that claim to be the best, But The best golf I ever played was when the clubheads were wooden, and small. However I was also younger. I truly do not believe equiptment is the way to try to improve. Just practice. You should play better in time. But there are exceptions. I don't want to discourage anyone, but not everyone was meant to be a pro. Some people can play every day for years and never get much better. Others can win tournaments after a year or two of playing. But it is a game you can enjoy for a lifetime.
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Herein lies the problem with the term "deflection."
A small-diameter shaft can be whippy and "deflect" (with shaft flex) a lot after the CB leaves the tip, but it will actually create less cue ball "deflection" (AKA squirt) than a fatter shaft. For more info, see the squirt, deflection, and stiffness terminology resource page.
Again, a low-deflection (LD) shaft deflects (bends) more but creates less cue ball deflection (squirt).
Regards,
Dave
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First let me say I have tried LD shafts and could not adjust to them. However, from what I have read. Those that don't like or believe in LD shafts believe they do shoot straighter than a standard maple shaft. They also either believe it is not important to shoot straighter using side spin or they believe shooting straighter is not worth the money. They use muscle memory and heard some dude ran 400 balls with a maple shaft. So it's all hype. Just not sure how one could argue that shooting straighter because of equipment is bad. Even with a perfect stroke there is deflection, even with an LD shaft or am I missing something.
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I only ever use parallel english and I don't compensate at all for CB squirt. I use a pretty long bridge as well, and my cue shaft is 4.3 oz and 12.5mm at the tip, so it has plenty of endmass to cause problems.
I tried using BHE and I miss the ball by a mile. I started a thread on this last year and the best advice I got was that my brain somehow was taking over, and that was a good thing, and that I shouldn't over-think it and try to correct it.
Of course, I couldn't do that, so I set up shots across table that I thought were aimed spot on to a diamond using two full tips of english on either side and had my wife take a photo of me from across the table. Each time I hit the diamond smack dab in the middle with the CB, and each photo showed clearly that the stick was not aligned where I thought it was aimed, but I was compensating a fair amount for squirt and could not tell I was doing it.
We're all wired differently. Why not go with what's good enough and live with it if it's working for you? As the saying goes, the enemy of good is perfect.
I will positively never invest in a LD shaft, no matter how low the deflection or how inexpensive it is, but I'd probably pay dearly for a sweet custom maple shaft by a great maker if I had a good enough cue to screw it onto. Now, if somebody comes out with a low swerve shaft, well, I'm all over that idea. Lol
What about a high-tech carbon fiber shaft that is lighter but stiffer?
That is an excellent question. The answer isn't as simple as you might think. The carbon-fiber shaft can be light close to the tip, reducing the effective endmass. Howerver, it can also be very stiff, which allows the effect of the CB hit to be "felt" further down the shaft, which increases the effective endmass. For more info, see the 2nd paragraph on the endmass and stffness resource page.
Enjoy,
Dave
I use to have the same belief before I knew what deflection was. I didn't learn what deflection was until 2011. So for the first 17 years I played,in my mind I wasn't compensating for deflection at all. Now that I know I think it's pretty awesome how much you compensate when using a half or full tip of inside English.