My theory on Deflection
- Thread starter nineballsafety8
- Start date
Thanks, Fred. You set me straight about the speed of sound in wood a while back. Some piddling little detail about using the wrong units or sumpin'.
So, aside from how these waves relate to effective end mass, would they be strongly felt by the player's hand in the familiar form of cue "hit"?
It not only shortens the learning curve, but it's largest assest is that it is less susceptible to small inaccuracies of hit on the cb. Please look again at KMRUNOUT's post #102. He explained very well what the main advantage of an LD shaft is. And, that advantage is bigger than some care to give it credit for.
Everyone likes to think they hit the cb where they are trying to hit it. But, unless one has had specific training on it, very few actually do.
Thanks, Fred. You set me straight about the speed of sound in wood a while back. Some piddling little detail about using the wrong units or sumpin'.
So, aside from how these waves relate to effective end mass, would they be strongly felt by the player's hand in the familiar form of cue "hit"?
The transverse wave in conjunction with the materials and joint fit I think make up "the hit." Vibrational analysis I believe is at the core of "the hit," the bulk of which are from the transverse wave and the material interaction.
Freddie
Maybe you mean this: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Houle.txt but that kind of says the two groups can't mix in either direction.
But related to Donny's comment about his realization of what the cue ball was doing, in 1980 I often played a pretty good player (who was giving me 30 on 100) and I set up the standard 90-degree cut of a ball frozen to the middle of the end rail. He made it on the first or second try with a lot of side spin. I asked him where his stick was pointed when he shot, and he gave the right answer -- he didn't know. It's not clear that you really want to know.
RBC
Deceased
I think we would agree that a good driver will stop quicker and have better control over their car without anitlock brakes. It's a subject I know well as I was a factory technical expert and trainer with Subaru of America many years ago.
However, where I think we might disagree is on whether or not it's good for the general public. You see, I feel that I am better without them, but I will promise you that I want every family member I have to have them on their car. They simply don't have the skills and understanding of what's happening to do the right thing in a panic situation. Believe it or not, my 17 year old daughter would be the one most likely to learn it, but getting her attention right now just isn't possible. At least not when you're her father.
Royce
I think most of the sound (the ping, or not) is from the longitudinal wave which is going to be about 1000 Hz compared to the transverse which will have a fundamental of about 25Hz. One of the ultra-high-speed videos from the Russian cue maker (I don't have the link handy) actually shows the longitudinal wave.
RBC
Deceased
I remember about 5 or 6 years ago, we were having dinner at Sullivan's steak house after the Super Billiards Expo was over. It was myself, Don Owen who is my business partner, John Schmidt who was our newly sponsored player at the time, and another pro player who I won't name because I don't have his permission to do so. I will tell you that he is an extremely prominent player from Europe, and is respected world wide. During our dinner, Don asked a rather tough question to our European guest. He asked him what was the one biggest thing that has made it more difficult, over the last several year, for him to earn a good living through playing professional pool. The answer was surprising. He answered almost immediately with LD cue shafts. It's not exactly what I was expecting! His reasoning was this. Many years before, he could travel to any country in the world and expect to place well enough to pay his way and make a little profit. Back then, according to him, there was a small group of top level players that was separated from the larger group below by skill. They were just able to beat most of the players back then. Now, according to him, when Predator came out with their cue shafts, the gap went away and the group of players who had a good chance at placing high in any tournament was much larger. Usually the previously top group still averaged better than the lower group, but now anyone could end your tournament. His exact statement was "now I may lose to someone I've never even heard of because he can make more of the hard shots with side spin".
Of course, he played then and plays now with LD equipment. He believed that, even though he could play very well without it, he couldn't afford to allow any advantage by the other player to go un-checked. "After all", he said "it's how I make my living".
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
At the B and C level LD or HD cues does not really matter much they miss too many shots mainly due to stroke errors. At high level missing one or two shots it will mean the game and probably the match. IMO switching to LD will certinly improves potting skills especially when stun is not used.
Thinking that playing with something that makes it easier to pocket balls is not worth while is simply silly. If the shaft makes the shot easier why is this a bad thing? Decreasing the variance in aiming from the actual line of cut angle can be harmful how? Customers write me letters all the time telling me their game has improved, so please tell me how it is only the Indian and not the arrow? (and, no Royce, this is not directed at you). Also, the idea that it is only the last few inches that make a difference in deflection... regardless of the speed of sound reference above... are easily disproved by simply putting the shaft on a variety of butts and seeing the difference in reaction to shots.
It wasn't the speed of sound Fred and Dave were referring to, it was the transverse wave. That's something that can be seen physically as an actual motion in the shaft. The speed of that wave is much slower than the speed of sound.
The end mass of the shaft is being displaced in space, which causes an equal but opposite reaction in the CB, sending it in the opposite direction. So, if the CB departs from the tip before the wave has time to move farther than 8" or so, how can the butt possible have any effect on deflection at all?
I think we are blessed to have guys like Freddie, Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, Mike Page, etc. on this board to give us the straight dope. What we do with that knowledge is an individual choice. I try not to think about any of it because very little of it affects my game, but I refuse to deny what they demonstrate through careful experimentation and scientific analysis.
FYI, links to the Russian videos, along with related videos and links, can be found on the cue vibration resource page.
Enjoy,
Dave
So in response to this, I have to ask a question, and it's just for arguments sake... but if someone were able to develop a shaft with NO DEFLECTION... does that mean that the number of top level pros would significantly go up? According to what you posted above, the understanding of deflection, and use of LD mitigating the need for this knowledge affected the game in such a fasion that it made it hard for a top level competitor to get into the money...
anyone can interject their opinion here, but Royce's opinion is desired lol
I'm glad you see my point.
It isn't that it really bad, it's just the way it is in our world today. Times are changing rapidly, and folks have been conditioned to "keep up with the times" or fall behind. As a result, we've become techno-geeks at the expense of real art.
Personally, I have an artist's soul, and at my level these things wouldn't make a dent in my game, so the choice for me is obvious. But if I was a pro depending on this game to put food on the table, yeah, I wouldn't want to miss a single ball that my less skilled opponents could make simple by virtue of purchased technology.
Anyway, may you and your company sell millions of these cues and prosper. You make a great product, otherwise champions like John would have nothing to do with them. They're not for everybody, but then, I'm quite sure you already know that.
My opinion is that if deflection was completely eliminated, the phenomenon known as "squerve" would cease to exist and we'd be fighting pure swerve on almost every shot. Deflection, after all, only affects shots hit off the vertical axis.
Some degree of deflection can serve a purpose at times.
Just to be a little clearer on one point... a shaft with no deflection will squirt the cb a ton. When speaking about the actual shaft, you want a lot of deflection IN the shaft. The more deflection IN the shaft, the less deflection or squirt in the cue ball.
As to the number of people that would then reach the elite level, that depends on how many are on the cusp of it now, and just what is actually holding them back from being elite. If it is just that they make the occasional miss, then theres a good chance of yes. Usually though, it is mental that holds one back from being elite. The non-elite mental attiude alone will cause one to screw up now and then, and that is all it takes at that level to stay non-elite.
Shoot the CB with english with the butt of a broom stick.:wink:
I have, it squirts the cb quite a bit. Try putting a tip on a metal shaft and watch what happens.
I wasn't saying a shaft that does deflect... that would be a shaft made of concrete... I meant a shaft that has ZERO CB DEFLECTION
I think a lot of us sometimes jump the gun and just assume the other guy doesn't really understand the issue at hand. I know I'm guilty of that.
I've also been accused by some (and on other forums) of refusing to accept the science. Which I find very humorous because if they went and looked again at all my posts they'd see that I'm constantly pushing the scientific view, even when I feel it may not really apply to the situation. Maybe that's because I was trained in school by scientists and actually worked in research for awhile.
In the case of LD shafts, I think it may be just a case of unfortunate nomenclature. If we used the term "CB squirt" from the get-go we might not have this problem.
Still, though, I'm not sure how well the name "low squirt shaft" would go over. I fear most dudes would assume we were speaking of some sort of serious sexual disorder and would steer clear away from them.