A ferrule conversation - please join the fun

prewarhero

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Please help me understand a few things and decipher myth from fact. I am trying to get that ping with a very firm stiff hit and accomplish lower deflection with a standard high grade stiff shaft and not an LD shaft.

The ping sound typically comes from a harder ferrule. T/F

The heavier the ferrule the more deflection. T/F?

Therefore a hard but light ferrule gives that ping sound without generating more deflection?

A softer tip muffles the ping?

Now that that is out of the way,
can someone recommend what is the best hard but not heavy ferrule?

How does ferrule length add into the mix?

Can you guys explain the whole caped no cap and...
threading? is bigger the thread better?


Not a cue maker, just trying to find the best option for finishing some not easily found shafts and educating myself as it relates to the business end of my stick.

Lastly, if the old real deal micarta is the way for me to go (although I heard it falls on the much heavier end of the spectrum) what is the true real old school stuff? I know there are a lot of versions of "the real deal".

Thanks in advance guys......
 
Please help me understand a few things and decipher myth from fact. I am trying to get that ping with a very firm stiff hit and accomplish lower deflection with a standard high grade stiff shaft and not an LD shaft.
Your goals are going to fight each other and make it very hard to do what you want. Ping and low deflection are opposites when it comes to ferrules.

The ping sound typically comes from a harder ferrule. T/F
True. But things like stainless joints and super hard tips also contribute.

The heavier the ferrule the more deflection. T/F?
Maybe. But I am not totally convinced this one is always true.

Therefore a hard but light ferrule gives that ping sound without generating more deflection?
I doubt it. It is the medium range of softness of the ferrule that gives a little when striking the cue ball and causes your shot to go straighter.

A softer tip muffles the ping?
True.

Now that that is out of the way,
can someone recommend what is the best hard but not heavy ferrule?
No suggestions that meet your criteria.

How does ferrule length add into the mix?
The longer the ferrule the more of the ferrule's charateristics is added to the hit. Soft, hard etc..

Can you guys explain the whole caped no cap and...
threading? is bigger the thread better?
Capped is stronger. To me threading is better. Bigger is not always better.

Lastly, if the old real deal micarta is the way for me to go (although I heard it falls on the much heavier end of the spectrum) what is the true real old school stuff? I know there are a lot of versions of "the real deal".
Dale can probably give more information on what you have to look for in the old stuff. I only deal in the new stuff.
 
I agree with Chris, I don't feel the 2 things necessarily go together under most circumstances.

As for low deflection, in general, less tip weight is a huge part of the formula. The ferrule material is not only lighter weight in some situations, but the length and sidewalls of the ferrule are often cut down to remove even more weight. this usually requires a cap, to help to add some extra durability against cracking, but I still always recommend against breaking with such a ferrule. There are other methods used by some to remove more material from the end of the shaft, thus lightening It up even more.

The pingy sound is very subject, people even love it or hate It, but the materials used to create It are usually on the other side of the spectrum when compared to a low deflection shaft.
 
This is all theory of coarse, but I should also add that materials alone may not be the only factor to creating the sound, as the construction technique/design of the machine work has a huge impact as well, and some of machining on low deflection shafts removes material that may otherwise help enhance the ping.
 
Thanks for the replys.
I guess I am still confused. I was playing with a cue that was proported to be less deflection. However, that was not the case. Maybe the weight at the end of the cue provided that basis but the shaft itself was not stiff (what is the oppositie of stiff? Whimmpy?). The shaft itself was causing a lot of deflection.

I am trying to maintain a stiff shaft. I need to look to ferrule and tip options that will provide the ping and not create anymore deflection.

The current shaft, which I like has an LBM ferrule (not a ton of ping) and in the absence of any suggestions I will stick with that, but is there a harder ferrule (more ping) that will not create more deflection then LBM?

Thanks guys.
 
A ferrule's primary objective is to protect your shaft from splitting like firewood. That's all. With that simple logic in mind, if ferrule material dictates the way your cue hits, feels, sounds, and deflects, then you have done something terribly wrong and you should seriously reconsider your build techniques. If you have done everything correctly in your wood choices and construction, then the material you choose for the ferrule should be nothing but a minute factor in the cue's personality.

No need to offend anyone so I won't go into my thoughts too much on construction techniques. But I will say that it's pointless to put so much time & effort into meticulously building a solid cue with awesome woods and absolutely perfect shafts, only to have all its energy buffered through a ferrule. If you're a confident builder who prides yourself in solid, great playing cues, then chances are good you have found a way to negate the affects a ferrule can have on the cue's performance. These guys choose ferrule material for almost every reason except playability. Playability is built into the entire cue, not reliant on or dictated by the ferrule. On the flip, I too often see builders putting too much emphasis on ferrule choice. This tells me they have a lot more to learn about cue making.

It went both ways for me as I have progressed as a builder. In the beginning, I was amazed at the difference one ferrule can have from another. It was a never ending journey trying to figure out which material hit which way, and which played & sounded the way I preferred. Then it morphed into install technique differences, adhesives, etc. It was a science I couldn't fully grasp because each cue was different. It took many, many, many cues & experiments & careful observation as a player to acquire a solid idea of what & how.

As the years went by I began paying attention to the not so subtle differences in shafts. The wood density, tonal characteristics, dimensions & shape, etc. More experiments on taper, tone, etc. and it eventually got out of hand to the point of obsession. I got a saw mill & began logging, milling, drying, & processing shaft wood. Not for sale, either, but merely to satisfy my own curiosities. I had to know why one cue plays this way and another plays that way, to the point where I realized it all begins with the tree. Yes it's extreme, but I am probably a little OCD. I eventually had a pretty fair grasp on things shaft related, and moved my focus yet again toward the butt.

It amazes me how much difference wood choice can make in the butt. I have experimented with numerous "A" joint techniques, adhesives, dimensions, etc. and have found nothing that contributes to hit more than wood choice. It all matters, for certain, but wood choice is paramount. Not only choosing wood, but marrying it to other woods to either enhance or drown certain characteristics. Yet again, another science to obsess over. Eventually I gathered enough experience to begin grasping the hows & whys of what makes one butt different than another. Even the bumper makes a not insignificant difference.

Anyway, much of this learning went on simultaneously over years, with spells of time being more focused on one aspect than another, and likewise. But over time I began to realize that I had it all wrong in the beginning. The ferrule isn't that important after all, and I shouldn't be using it as a performance defining component. I can control the hit & feel & sound of my cues by building it into the cue. The ferrule is merely a reinforcement to hold the shaft together at the point of impact. Completely opposite line of thinking from when I first began doing cue work. And knowing what I do now, I find myself snobbing down on builders who put so much emphasis on ferrule material. I have to remember that I am wrong, and think back to when I was in the same boat, and still built some great playing cues. When I step back and look at the whole, I realize that my cues don't necessarily hit so much better than they used to, but that I have over time learned why & how so that I can more consistently achieve that hit.

Some of my cues in the beginning hit awesome and some not so much. I knew I could tinker with ferrule materials & install technique to tweak the hit a little this way or that, and I became too reliant on ferrules. Only through experience & the desire to understand things did I learn that it's not the ferrules at all, or at least shouldn't be. If my cue is solid & sound, and I have done everything correctly, then I want that ferrule to be as unnoticeable as possible. Where I used to depend on it, I now want it to play a minimal or no role at all. Now I don't care what the material is so long as it's white, clean, cuts nice, sands nice, and looks good.

Sorry for the long post. Hope it helps somebody. Point being, there are things much more important than ferrules, and if ferrule choice makes that much difference, then you have more to work on somewhere else.
 
is there a harder ferrule (more ping) that will not create more deflection then LBM?

No. Good melamine is as good as ferrule material gets. If the ferrule is capped, try changing to a ferrule that isn't capped, or else shave the cap off of that one. The best & most natural sound you'll get will come from no ferrule at all, but I prefer to have a ferrule for protection. I use a thin wall ferrule with no cap, so the tip glues directly to wood and there's not enough ferrule material on the sidewalls to affect the hit, but enough to protect the shaft.
 
Efren won the US Open, World 9 and World 8 using a cue ball ferrule that was glued with wood glue .:eek:

Ferrule talk is a can of worms. Done a lot of them in different materials and configs.
Among my conclusions ? Uncapped melamines eventually crack. I have two in the making here as per request, so I'm gonna use carbon fiber backing.
The lightest most durable ferrule material readily available now I can trust to have big threaded tenon and no cap , is Mason's micarta.
Juma makes a funny sound when drawing the cueball. It weighs as much as melamine but hits much softer. It does not like wood glue or poly glue.
It has to be epoxied imo.
1" long ferrules are passe'. Shorter ferrules are the in thing now.
Then again, SW still does 1" long uncapped melamine, press-fitted and white glues ( I believe ).

Truth be told, a good player can play with a cheap fiber ferrule glued with Titebond just fine.
 
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A ferrule's primary objective is to protect your shaft from splitting like firewood. That's all. With that simple logic in mind, if ferrule material dictates the way your cue hits, feels, sounds, and deflects, then you have done something terribly wrong and you should seriously reconsider your build techniques. If you have done everything correctly in your wood choices and construction, then the material you choose for the ferrule should be nothing but a minute factor in the cue's personality.

No need to offend anyone so I won't go into my thoughts too much on construction techniques. But I will say that it's pointless to put so much time & effort into meticulously building a solid cue with awesome woods and absolutely perfect shafts, only to have all its energy buffered through a ferrule. If you're a confident builder who prides yourself in solid, great playing cues, then chances are good you have found a way to negate the affects a ferrule can have on the cue's performance. These guys choose ferrule material for almost every reason except playability. Playability is built into the entire cue, not reliant on or dictated by the ferrule. On the flip, I too often see builders putting too much emphasis on ferrule choice. This tells me they have a lot more to learn about cue making.

It went both ways for me as I have progressed as a builder. In the beginning, I was amazed at the difference one ferrule can have from another. It was a never ending journey trying to figure out which material hit which way, and which played & sounded the way I preferred. Then it morphed into install technique differences, adhesives, etc. It was a science I couldn't fully grasp because each cue was different. It took many, many, many cues & experiments & careful observation as a player to acquire a solid idea of what & how.

As the years went by I began paying attention to the not so subtle differences in shafts. The wood density, tonal characteristics, dimensions & shape, etc. More experiments on taper, tone, etc. and it eventually got out of hand to the point of obsession. I got a saw mill & began logging, milling, drying, & processing shaft wood. Not for sale, either, but merely to satisfy my own curiosities. I had to know why one cue plays this way and another plays that way, to the point where I realized it all begins with the tree. Yes it's extreme, but I am probably a little OCD. I eventually had a pretty fair grasp on things shaft related, and moved my focus yet again toward the butt.

It amazes me how much difference wood choice can make in the butt. I have experimented with numerous "A" joint techniques, adhesives, dimensions, etc. and have found nothing that contributes to hit more than wood choice. It all matters, for certain, but wood choice is paramount. Not only choosing wood, but marrying it to other woods to either enhance or drown certain characteristics. Yet again, another science to obsess over. Eventually I gathered enough experience to begin grasping the hows & whys of what makes one butt different than another. Even the bumper makes a not insignificant difference.

Anyway, much of this learning went on simultaneously over years, with spells of time being more focused on one aspect than another, and likewise. But over time I began to realize that I had it all wrong in the beginning. The ferrule isn't that important after all, and I shouldn't be using it as a performance defining component. I can control the hit & feel & sound of my cues by building it into the cue. The ferrule is merely a reinforcement to hold the shaft together at the point of impact. Completely opposite line of thinking from when I first began doing cue work. And knowing what I do now, I find myself snobbing down on builders who put so much emphasis on ferrule material. I have to remember that I am wrong, and think back to when I was in the same boat, and still built some great playing cues. When I step back and look at the whole, I realize that my cues don't necessarily hit so much better than they used to, but that I have over time learned why & how so that I can more consistently achieve that hit.

Some of my cues in the beginning hit awesome and some not so much. I knew I could tinker with ferrule materials & install technique to tweak the hit a little this way or that, and I became too reliant on ferrules. Only through experience & the desire to understand things did I learn that it's not the ferrules at all, or at least shouldn't be. If my cue is solid & sound, and I have done everything correctly, then I want that ferrule to be as unnoticeable as possible. Where I used to depend on it, I now want it to play a minimal or no role at all. Now I don't care what the material is so long as it's white, clean, cuts nice, sands nice, and looks good.

Sorry for the long post. Hope it helps somebody. Point being, there are things much more important than ferrules, and if ferrule choice makes that much difference, then you have more to work on somewhere else.



It's probably been discussed a thousand times or more, and I don't think there's any argument there.To me, as with most people I know of, It's a given that wood selection is huge factor in feel and sound of cue, especially with an uncapped ferrule, if it wasn't then I sure would have an easier time deciding which shafts I would prefer to use, but if someone was to tell me different, I wouldn't be able buy into the fact that a capped ferrule or a shaft with a hole bored in the end of It has nothing to do with, or doesn't make an impact, and although I can't speak for others, that is what I was making reference to. Regardless of woods, If the ferrule is capped as some materials have to be then It definitely has an effect on sound, and can dampen the tone depending on the material "IMO". We all have our opinions and that's mine.

Not sure who you referring to maybe me or maybe anyone and everyone that thinks differently, but I'd be the first to tell You that I'm still learning, and probably always will. Although no matter how much I learn, and not to offend here, but I would feel I was being somewhat self righteous to assume another maker has a lot to learn based on a few words out of context in a forum or that my thinking is better then everyone Else's. Like I mentioned though, I don't see an argument here. In fact my thinking is not unlike yours when I build a cue, as I prefer uncapped Myself for much the same reasons,mainly tonal qualities being transferred and not dampened, but on the repair side, you may not have control over these factors unless you build a new shaft, and even then you are at the mercy of the handle that the shaft is being made for. Another thing with that is not everyone likes that sound. Nothing wrong with having a signature feel, hit and tone, there will always be a percentage that prefers It, but like many things It is very subjective, not all 2 people are the same, and some people will think there is something wrong with the cue, as where others may love it..


I agree with Joey that some uncapped melamines can crack, I have personally seen this many of times with repair work that has came in. I even had one of My own crack one time.
 
I have a lot of respect for the cuemakers who have given their opinions here and have heard some great things about how their cues play. But the thought that the ferrule material should not effect the way a cue plays is a very strange idea to me. In my opinion next to the tip the ferrule has the most to do with the way the cue plays. After that the shaft and then the forearm and joint and so on. As far as cue contruction goes the farther the part is from the tip the less effect it has on the way the cue plays and the ferrule is just behind the tip.
 
Chris, I feel that some things could be expressed them in a better way, but I Have the up most respect for everyone's opinions too. I have probably picked up and learned a thing or 2 from everyone here over the years, and for that I am thankful. I also respect the research people do on Their own. All of It is valuable knowledge in some way or another.

With that said, like You, I feel they have an effect too. builds aside, and me just looking at It from a repair side, with the years of people wanting changes to be made to either dampen a cues ping or the other way around have shown me that. A capped ferrule seems to have even more effect, and the tip could not be left out of that either, because like you say It's the first point of contact.

It's hard for me to see any sort of argument other then that, because I do also agree with part of what else has been mentioned about woods playing a roll. yes they play a huge roll too. I am just not of an opinion that one completely cancels out the other.
 
Efren won the US Open, World 9 and World 8 using a cue ball ferrule that was glued with wood glue .:eek:

Ferrule talk is a can of worms. Done a lot of them in different materials and configs.
Among my conclusions ? Uncapped melamines eventually crack. I have two in the making here as per request, so I'm gonna use carbon fiber backing.
The lightest most durable ferrule material readily available now I can trust to have big threaded tenon and no cap , is Mason's micarta.
Juma makes a funny sound when drawing the cueball. It weighs as much as melamine but hits much softer. It does not like wood glue or poly glue.
It has to be epoxied imo.
1" long ferrules are passe'. Shorter ferrules are the in thing now.
Then again, SW still does 1" long uncapped melamine, press-fitted and white glues ( I believe ).

Truth be told, a good player can play with a cheap fiber ferrule glued with Titebond just fine.

I'll let you know if melamine glue holds Joey...I just started trying it...
 
Chris, I feel that some things could be expressed them in a better way, but I Have the up most respect for everyone's opinions too. I have probably picked up and learned a thing or 2 from everyone here over the years, and for that I am thankful. I also respect the research people do on Their own. All of It is valuable knowledge in some way or another.

With that said, like You, I feel they have an effect too. builds aside, and me just looking at It from a repair side, with the years of people wanting changes to be made to either dampen a cues ping or the other way around have shown me that. A capped ferrule seems to have even more effect, and the tip could not be left out of that either, because like you say It's the first point of contact.

It's hard for me to see any sort of argument other then that, because I do also agree with part of what else has been mentioned about woods playing a roll. yes they play a huge roll too. I am just not of an opinion that one completely cancels out the other.

It would be an easy thing to prove if a maker made three identical shafts and put a different ferrule material on each shaft like Ivory, Linen Melamine and ABS with the same type of tip. Then hit some balls and see if they all feel and play the same. That would tell the story about how much the ferrule actually effects the hit of the cue. I did something like this years ago and settled in on Linen Based Melamine.
 
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I started out with threaded and capped ferrules just for safety reasons.. I didn't want any failures. Now I do slip fit and uncapped and never had a failure. I have repaired many cracked and loose failures by big name companies but never another cue builder. I have seen many ferrules glued with wood glue come loose.

My opinion is that an uncapped ferrule gives a little more feel from the hit and a capped ferrule softens the feel.

Kim
 
I started out with threaded and capped ferrules just for safety reasons.. I didn't want any failures. Now I do slip fit and uncapped and never had a failure. I have repaired many cracked and loose failures by big name companies but never another cue builder. I have seen many ferrules glued with wood glue come loose.

My opinion is that an uncapped ferrule gives a little more feel from the hit and a capped ferrule softens the feel.

Kim

I agree with you on the softer feel part provided the ferrule material is soft. For instance a Juma ferrule should have a softer feel is capped, but Melamine seems to feel slightly softer if left uncapped. I think what happens is you get more of the feel of the ferrule material if capped. So a harder ferrule material capped will feel harder and softer ferrule material capped will feel softer. There are probably exceptions to the rule, but that has been my experience.
 
My ferrules crack on occasion, but it's almost always the tip getting worn down to where it's almost ferrule on cue ball that causes it. Otherwise it happens with guys that have extremely strong breaks. Aside from that, there's no issue.

As for capped ferrules giving softer feel, it depends on the material and install technique. The less material you have, the more natural the hit will feel, and the more consistent it will be from shaft to shaft, considering you have a clue how to choose shafts. The worst common install technique, IMO, is the capped ferrules on a tenon threaded with those 5/16-18 dies. This leaves everything about the cue's hit dependent upon your choice of ferrule material, and you can kiss consistency goodbye. One shaft might seem awesome where the next seems horrible. Generally soft material gives soft hit and hard gives hard hit, plastic feels like plastic and ivory feels more natural. But it doesn't have to be that way. The effect a ferrule has can be negated, minimized, mostly removed from the equation. However, that takes knowledge and a willingness to do so. Some builders are scared to death that their cue might get damaged during play, and ruin their reputation. It's too much risk so playability is sacrificed in lieu of durability.

To me, seeing my cues beat up means that somebody is using the hell out of it & if they are using it that much, then everybody at the pool hall knows the cue well. Just so happens the cue has my name on it, and cues that get used that much don't belong to your weekly league bangers. It's a real player, likely one of the better in the room, and he's using my cue. What better advertisement? So what if I have to fix a ferrule or do a refinish once in a while? And why doesn't he play with a cue that has a more durable ferrule system? Because he's good enough to know the difference in playability. He may not be able to pinpoint exactly why one is better than the other, but he notices there is a difference. One feels like a hunting dog that can't wait to get to work for its master, and the other feels like a piece of wood and plastic with leather on the end. For me, playability trumps durability. The ferrule, in the entire scheme of the cue, should ideally have about as much effect on playability as the bumper, IMO. That opinion is subject to change as I am often wrong & often fail, which means I'm often learning ;)
 
Can of worms.
I knew I shouldn't have put in my two cents.
Predator and OB sell thousands of shafts
They have thin capped or lined ferrules.
World titles have been won with them.

PS
I need to re-read this thread. I think one person changed his mind
on this thread . That or he disagreed with himself.
 
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Please help me understand a few things and decipher myth from fact. I am trying to get that ping with a very firm stiff hit and accomplish lower deflection with a standard high grade stiff shaft and not an LD shaft.

The ping sound typically comes from a harder ferrule. T/F

The heavier the ferrule the more deflection. T/F?

Therefore a hard but light ferrule gives that ping sound without generating more deflection?

A softer tip muffles the ping?

Now that that is out of the way,
can someone recommend what is the best hard but not heavy ferrule?

How does ferrule length add into the mix?

Can you guys explain the whole caped no cap and...
threading? is bigger the thread better?


Not a cue maker, just trying to find the best option for finishing some not easily found shafts and educating myself as it relates to the business end of my stick.

Lastly, if the old real deal micarta is the way for me to go (although I heard it falls on the much heavier end of the spectrum) what is the true real old school stuff? I know there are a lot of versions of "the real deal".
Thanks in advance guys......

You heard wrong.
They are light .
When Schon was the nuts of production or semi-custom cues, they had them.
1" long and capped.
 
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