fast break....

[Jude Rosenstock]

Whilst I agree that boasting about who has a few MPH more than the next-player is not especially interesting there is a very valid reason to learn how to break with the most speed you can without losing control.

The reason is breaking conditions change, even on the same table. A break that may work consistently at slower speeds (sub-20mph) on one table at one time may not work on another table, or even the same table at a different time. This is why I think a well-rounded player needs to learn a strong power break. You won't need it all the time but just like that 4-rail-force-follow-with-inside english shot it's a great tool to have handy when the situation calls for it.

One piece of advice I can't stand that you see in a lot of instructional books is to always break controlled and level and don't let the cue ball hop up on contact. Even the otherwise excellent book "The Great Break Shot" by Charley Bond gives the same advice but yet it has photos of multiple Pros breaking on the cover hopping the cue ball a foot off the bed of the table. If this is bad way to play a break shot you can bet the Pros would not be doing it. Yes, if you are a beginner player you can make many more mistakes breaking hard than soft, but sooner or later you have to learn how to do it or your game will be limited to situations where a soft break works well.

Of course just because you can break at 30mph does not mean you always should. Recently I was playing someone with a very powerful break, not sure the speed but consistently making 1-3 balls on every break in 9 Ball. However if he failed to get a shot on the next ball he would leave me a very easy spread, so it's a double-edged sword. You need to ensure your break is not better than the rest of your game!

Yeah, I agree with you. It's not bad to have. Although I don't exactly have earth-shattering speed in my arm, I do have a pretty sporty break when needed and I'll bring it out in select situations. Like, if I'm in a desperate situation and looking for a miracle. As well, barbox 8ball almost requires you to break as hard as you can (unless you're Corey Deuel, that is).

 

[9Ballr]

What's everyones tricks for these 30+ mph breaks? Pretty neat to see, and I'm just curious how people of all sizes can do it...

Come running at the table from about 20-30 feet back, lancer style.
Some people prefer the 20 foot sprint others need the extra ten for pick up and go for the 30 footer.
This is the only way to get a 30+ mph on your cue ball.

 

[CreeDo]

I still wonder about the hop. Just an unintended, unwanted side effect of a hard break?
Or does it have some value and we should try to make it happen.
I've heard a lot of theories and I'm not real sure which one is right.

Shane just says "You gotta pop the cue ball" in his instructional without going into why,
but he repeats it a few times and seems to strongly believe it.
A local pro, Brian Deska, told me he elevates a hair with a tall bridge and feels like
it just helps the 1 go back towards the corner, and the 2nd row balls go in the side in 10b.
Eckert told me he thinks it's mostly for positional purposes... the hopping causes unintended
spin to die, and if you get massive topspin and the ball bounces backwards, they cancel each other out.
I think Dr. Dave says it's just the natural result of your cue not being able to get 100% level
due to the rail being in the way, so all breaks are small jump shots.

One theory of mine is..
keeping the cueball airborne from the kitchen line to the spot is ideal.
If it's not airborne, or lands earlier, it loses some of its speed.
If it's TOO airborne, it skips off the top of the 1 and goes flying.

Shane's got the speed and angle down that the cue ball hits the felt
right in front of the 1 ball, then bounces up and rebounds off the face of the 1.

 

[Pse217]

I still wonder about the hop. Just an unintended, unwanted side effect of a hard break?
Or does it have some value and we should try to make it happen.
I've heard a lot of theories and I'm not real sure which one is right.

Shane just says "You gotta pop the cue ball" in his instructional without going into why,
but he repeats it a few times and seems to strongly believe it.
A local pro, Brian Deska, told me he elevates a hair with a tall bridge and feels like
it just helps the 1 go back towards the corner, and the 2nd row balls go in the side in 10b.
Eckert told me he thinks it's mostly for positional purposes... the hopping causes unintended
spin to die, and if you get massive topspin and the ball bounces backwards, they cancel each other out.
I think Dr. Dave says it's just the natural result of your cue not being able to get 100% level
due to the rail being in the way, so all breaks are small jump shots.

One theory of mine is..
keeping the cueball airborne from the kitchen line to the spot is ideal.
If it's not airborne, or lands earlier, it loses some of its speed.
If it's TOO airborne, it skips off the top of the 1 and goes flying.

Shane's got the speed and angle down that the cue ball hits the felt
right in front of the 1 ball, then bounces up and rebounds off the face of the 1.

My personal use of "popping" the cue ball is for a few reasons, one of which you stated and that is to cancel out the top spin and the cue ball coming backwards. But my main reason (if you can follow me on this) is because when breaking, it's almost impossible to hit dead center, meaning no left or right. If you think about what happens when you put a really good stroke on a force follow shot, if the cue ball never leaves the table, the ball spins all over the place, as you want in that case. However, if the cue ball leaves the table when you spin a ball, it stops and spins in its place. So if you hit a ball a little bit bad when you're breaking but the cue ball pops up, the spin actually holds the cue ball right where it lands. I know this sounds far-fetched but it works. Sometime try breaking with a measel ball and intentionally put a little bit of inside on it when you break and watch how the cue ball holds itself right where it lands. I'm not saying that I think you should break with english, but I am saying that popping the cue ball helps hold the ball when you don't have a perfect break stroke

 

[dr_dave]

I still wonder about the hop. Just an unintended, unwanted side effect of a hard break?
Or does it have some value and we should try to make it happen.
I've heard a lot of theories and I'm not real sure which one is right.

Creedo (and others interested),

Check out my break shot ball squat and hop resource page. I added some info to this page recently. I think the page and supporting resources address hop-related questions fairly well.

Shane just says "You gotta pop the cue ball" in his instructional without going into why, but he repeats it a few times and seems to strongly believe it.

With a a square hit on the 1-ball at fast speed, the CB will hop (AKA "pop"). Therefore, the "pop" is a good indicator of a good break. Therefore, his advice to "pop the ball" is good; although, this advice could be misinterpreted per in the info on my resource page and below.

BTW, here's a pertinent quote from a post I made in a related thread:

SVB hits the CB with the cue as level as possible to minimize how much the CB hops on the way to the rack, to deliver as much power as possible into the rack. If he elevated the cue more above level, the CB would jump and skip more on the way to the rack, possibly causing it to hit the 1-ball even more airborne, which would cause it to "pop" even higher. But this would not be good because less energy would be delivered to the rack (due to the losses during the initial and any subsequent hops).

BTW, SVB's break is good not because the CB "pops." It is good because he consistently hits the 1-ball very squarely with significant CB speed. When one does this, it is difficult to avoid the "pop." If people want to improve their break, IMO they should not be trying to force the CB to "pop" (e.g., by adding elevation to the cue). Instead, they should follow the technique advice on the break technique and equipment advice resource page. If one develops a good break, the CB will most likely "pop" (although, the "pop" is not really a good thing ... it is just the result of an accurate and powerful break).

One theory of mine is..
keeping the cueball airborne from the kitchen line to the spot is ideal.
If it's not airborne, or lands earlier, it loses some of its speed.
If it's TOO airborne, it skips off the top of the 1 and goes flying.

Actually, what would be ideal is if the cue were level and the CB didn't hop at all (because the CB loses energy each time it hops, even on the first hop after the tip drives the CB down into the slate slightly), but that's not possible on a real pool table where the cue needs to clear the rails. The next best thing is as you describe ... the CB is airborn and just about to land in front of the 1-ball. Then no energy would be lost in an additional hop into the rack.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ArtOfTheCue]

Actually, what would be ideal is if the cue were level and the CB didn't hop at all (because the CB loses energy each time it hops, even on the first hop after the tip drives the CB down into the slate slightly), but that's not possible on a real pool table where the cue needs to clear the rails. The next best thing is as you describe ... the CB is airborn and just about to land in front of the 1-ball. Then no energy would be lost in an additional hop into the rack.

Regards,
Dave

But the CB also loses energy due to friction with the cloth as it travels along the table. I always figured the hop kept that friction out of play and that you'd lose less energy to a single hop like he describes than if you were to keep it on the table as with a perfectly level cue. Now I'm wondering which is the bigger drag on the ball.

 

[mantis99]

30mph+ breakers are rare, and its not needed anyways. But to answer your question, its technique and timing, not power. Heres a video forum member Colin Colenso did a while back about timing etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U
Chuck

It's both timing and power if your hitting it that hard. That's like a 90 mph fastball. You need some God given gifts to generate speed along with impeccable timing to get it up to 30 mph.

 

[dr_dave]

Actually, what would be ideal is if the cue were level and the CB didn't hop at all (because the CB loses energy each time it hops, even on the first hop after the tip drives the CB down into the slate slightly), but that's not possible on a real pool table where the cue needs to clear the rails. The next best thing is as you describe ... the CB is airborn and just about to land in front of the 1-ball. Then no energy would be lost in an additional hop into the rack.

But the CB also loses energy due to friction with the cloth as it travels along the table. I always figured the hop kept that friction out of play and that you'd lose less energy to a single hop like he describes than if you were to keep it on the table as with a perfectly level cue. Now I'm wondering which is the bigger drag on the ball.

The amount of energy the CB loses as a result of a bounce is more than it does during sliding (over the distance the bounced CB would be in the air after the single bounce). If the CB bounces a 2nd time before hitting the 1-ball, even more energy is lost. I just did some rough calculations to check this using equations from TP B.10 (which applied to elevated-cue draw shots, but the physics is very similar). It checks out. The more level the cue is, the more energy will be delivered to the rack of balls (for a given cue speed).

When I can find some time, I'll write this up in a new TP (and maybe in a BD article).

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[RiverCity]

It's both timing and power if your hitting it that hard. That's like a 90 mph fastball. You need some God given gifts to generate speed along with impeccable timing to get it up to 30 mph.

Ill offer this as food for thought, Sarah Rousey who is about 5' tall 100 lbs soaking wet has been clocked at 28mph. How much of her break speed is power? Very little. Its in the timing of the movements. Along the lines of cracking a whip. While I agree most people cant do it, its not really muscle power thats accomplishing it. It is the ability/coordination to make it happen. Bustamante is a smaller framed thin man who can break over 30mph.
Chuck

 

[KMRUNOUT]

around what mph is shane's 10b break?

Shane breaks 10 ball between 21-24 mph...usually 21-22.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I heard 23 from one source, and 25-26 from another.
I think 23 is correct. People wanna overstate the power of it but it's the control
and that nice pop that makes it amazing. It's not that he crushes 'em 30 mph
and the rest of the world is stuck at 20.

If you have the break speed app, you can actually clock it just by watching
youtube videos of him, if they have good sound quality.
Keep the volume up and hopefully the breaks come through louder than the people talking.
You get a lot of false readings due to other noises, but when you get a legit one it's obvious...
real readings show 20+ mph, the fake ones like 10 or 40.

I did it for a few matches on 9 footers. At SBE it seemed shane was breaking softer
(for him), lots of breaks at 20.5, 21, 21.5.

Vs. Mike D. in this seminole tour video, lots of 23 and 24.
This video is kind of entertaining, mike gets up on almost every rack and complains
about something... like he sees a gap from his chair several feet away?
Looks like a move to me. Anyway eventually shane gets sick of it and does
one break from the far corner just for fun. Made a ball anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1qk5sYp68k

FYI, in the TAR match between Shane and Earl on the 10 footer, Shane was pretty consistently at 25mph and Earl was consistently at 28 mph. I doubt Shane can hit 30. Does anyone care? Shane would need radically different technique to hit that speed, and he has already grooved the technique he has.

I used to break WAY harder than I do now, back in my early 20's. I've hit 28 in the last few years, but now struggle to hit 25-26. Back then I probably hit 4-5 mph harder, probably in the 30 ballpark. My break is VASTLY better now. I have very good cueball control and almost always pop the head ball very square. I get better layouts and rarely scratch. My technique has changed and I just don't feel the things I used to feel in my stroke long ago when I smashed them. So I may never see 30 again in this life. Don't care too much. (Don't get me wrong it looks cool as hell!)

KMRUNOUT