Are Elite Athletes Born or Made

I didn't read many replies in this thread but I'll share my observations as someone who competes at the highest level in an athletic endeavor which, similar to pool, isn't aerobic. It is more athletic than pool, but shares many of the same mental states, IMO. I don't mean to be cryptic, I only hope to add some validation to my perspective without openly and harshly critiquing friends of mine on the internet.

Seems to me that high level athletes are born and made, and those who are truly special in the sense of records, longevity, or otherwise superior achievement are those that were born with something extra. This something extra may be a mental game or a body type, but I generally believe it to be "talent." I'm not foolish enough to endeavor to define THAT word.

I have a friend who was the number one ranked guy in the world, he has the perfect body type, a great mental approach, AND he works extremely hard, great coaching and support, etc. I have a friend who achieved lower elite level, but worked much much harder, took longer to get there, and has more difficulty maintaining it.

Conversely, I have another friend who works just as hard, has the same coaching and possibly even more desire that the prior two, but who after years of dedicated and exclusive training has failed to reach even the lowest tier of elite.

To my mind this is evidence that innate ability exists and that elite athletes, in some circumstances, can become elite by hard work with merely adequate talent.

Sorry I'm wordy.
 
lol...yall Buddy hall was skinny and tall and ran around the table running racks when he started playing pool,in pool he was an athlete,he was the rifleman man. Its a combination of all things to make a champion. Body structure,fundamentals,starting young,practice,good mentors,drive to win,need to win,timing of the afore mentioned. All of these things have to work together to create a chanpion. So its nature and nurturing...;)
 
Lucky_Lew66 said:
lol...yall Buddy hall was skinny and tall and ran around the table running racks when he started playing pool,in pool he was an athlete,he was the rifleman man. Its a combination of all things to make a champion. Body structure,fundamentals,starting young,practice,good mentors,drive to win,need to win,timing of the afore mentioned. All of these things have to work together to create a chanpion. So its nature and nurturing...;)
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While I believe that a pool player can be an athlete, I don't think it's because he plays pool. Some of these fit little Europeans may be great athletes but not because they can draw their ball. Also, the discussion is not whether "champions" are born or made, it's "elite athletes".

When I hear "elite athletes" I think Bo Jackson, not Steve Mizerak. Of course this is just an opinion. We all have different interpretations of the terms "elite", "athlete", and "sport".
 
A very interesting recent book on this subject is "The Sports Gene". The book does not provide conclusions, exactly, but it does provide a great deal to think about.

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Celtic said:
If you take 100 babies from birth, raise them in nearly identical fashion, put them all into rigorous training for the same sport where shear size is not an overwhelming factor to success (like basketball and being 5 foot 9) after 20 years some of those kids would be "great" at that chosen sport.

BUT you are going to have a statistically normal curve showing that most of those 100 kids fall into a central lump of fairly strong play, some of those kids despite being brought up in the game are going to be lower then the curve, there will be an outlier or two way below the curve that simply could not do it and who never played at the speed of the norm, and there will be one or two outliers at the top of the curve who simply rose faster then all of the other kids, they showed dominance early and as the training progressed their skills increased far faster then the norm and they pulled farther and farther away from the pack.

You cannot simply dedicate 10,000 hours into something and be a pro. If you could I WOULD go play golf for 10,000 hours and become a pro, I would LOVE to have that life. But I know for an absolute fact that in that game that 10,000 hours simply would not get me even close to the lower ranks/tours of pro level golf. I might be a 70-something golfer after that time, single digit handicap, and for me that would be outstanding, but it would still completely suck compared to the pros.
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I agree that you cannot just dedicate 10,000 hours into something and expect to become an expert. The research summarized by Malcolm Gladwell did not in fact conclude "10,000 hours = pro", but that is what some of the general media and public have gotten as the take-home message. What Gladwell actually said was the it was hard to find an expert in pretty much any field that had not spent at least 10,000 hours at deliberate practice. It basically stated that 10,000 was so common amongst experts that it was nearly a "rule", and that it is almost unheard of to have an expert at something who has spent only 1000 or 2000 hours honing their craft.

But something still seems to separate mere experts from the world-class elite at the top, despite both groups having put in countless hours of deliberate practice. Whether that's mostly genetics or some other intangible quality would make an interesting area for study.

Gladwell also brought up some interesting examples of so-called prodigies who have reached expert status at very young ages, but when you really look at their history, they have ALSO put in their 10,000 hours. When you see an 11-year old running a perfect game, you can be pretty much assured that they had a cue in their hand at 4 or 5 years of age.
 
easy-e said:
I agree that you can be fat and still an athlete, like many professional football players. I guess I just don't consider pool to be athletic. I also don't consider it a sport, but let's not all go down that road for the millionth time:eek:.
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I don't consider pool a sport either, but what the hell do I know?
Poker in some cirdles is considered a sport.. LMFAO
 
opinion

easy-e said:
I agree that you can be fat and still an athlete, like many professional football players. I guess I just don't consider pool to be athletic. I also don't consider it a sport, but let's not all go down that road for the millionth time:eek:.
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You're entitled to your opinion.

Since you don't consider pool a sport, I guess you'd rather not see it on ESPN...or in any "sports" magazines, or mentioned on the sports portion of the news, or on the sports pages in newspapers.
 
It appears that I disagree with most here.

You cant take a plow horse and win the Kentucky Derby, I don't care how much "Desire", or "Practice" or whatever, it isn't going to happen, ever.

Most things in life we can affect, but we cant change them. It is mostly genetics.

Keith McCready, (don't kill me JAM), I have read has incredible eye sight, and a natural great hand and eye coordination (plays about the same with either hand). His life, was pool, as a child and he had tons of hours practicing it. I have heard so many times he was pool prodigy. But if he didn't have eagle eyes, and great hand and eye coordination, it wouldn't have made any difference how many hours he played, he wouldn't have been an elite player with all of them. Keith is a freak, like Secretariat, Muhammad Ali, Babe Ruth, where all the genetics, lined up and he luckily was able find a sport or game that he could capitalize those genetics. (I re-read that and felt like I should give a better explaination of freak, it is not 1 out of 100, or 1 out of 1000, it is probably 1 out of 1,000,000.)

I don't know how many times I have met great pool players, who were great golfers too. This is another game that uses almost same skills as pool and IMO, there is never a surprise when a golfer plays pool or a pool player plays golf.

Its the genes, we like to think we all could be like Keith, or Efren, or Sigel, or Hall, but the sad fact is their genetics give them such an advantage it cannot be overcome. So to answer the question, "Are elite athletes born or made?", my answer is if you have the superior genetics to become elite, then they could be made. If you don't have then genetics, you can be great, but you can never be elite.


Ken
 
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I'll repeat my earlier assertion, as I think many folks have gotten away from the actual question...."Are elite athletes born or made?"

The truly "elite"...meaning the best of the best, not simply among the best...they must be both born and made. No matter how much time and training is spent, only those who have an innate apptitude for whatever the sport (or any activity, be it music, or the arts, whatever) to truly become "elite".

The flip side applies, as well. Sports history is littered with examples of phenoms who squandered their amazing talent and abilities by not working at their craft, and putting the time and effort in to remain "elite". Ray Allen is considered one of the best free throw shooters in NBA history, yet he still shoots hundreds in practice each day.
 
It's ESPN and Sports Illustrated's fault for blurring the lines.

When they choose to make billiards a part of their coverage then they are saying clearly that they consider billiards to be sport and if that then the people who play billiards are athletes. Now whether or not billiards athletes have certain genes that make them predisposed to becoming top level players is the question.

Obviously if a body type is wholly unsuited to an activity then it's probably nearly physically impossible for a person with that body type to perform at the top level. That is so obvious that it's almost a red herring to the debate.

I think that the Sports Gene does a good job of uncovering the genetic part of performance. Furthermore neuroscience is uncovering the biological part of performance. Science is unlocking the mysteries here that govern why we are what we are. When that happens ask yourself this.......

IF you could go in for a procedure that would make you be able to perform a task at the highest level possible would you do it?

If you could take a drug that would clear away any mental blocks and give you the requisite desire to hone your skills to the highest level humanly possible would you do it?

If you could choose your child's career in the womb would you do it?

If the entire world was full of people who were using all of their mental and physical capabilities to the highest possible level would that be a better world?

And lastly is this what the alien overlords have been pushing us towards? :-)
 
Donny Lutz said:
You're entitled to your opinion.

Since you don't consider pool a sport, I guess you'd rather not see it on ESPN...or in any "sports" magazines, or mentioned on the sports portion of the news, or on the sports pages in newspapers.
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Correct on all accounts.
 
krupa said:
.... What if all of those violinists are the talented ones and the non-talented ones simply realized they weren't going to make it and went off and did something else? It's probably more accurate to say that not only do you have to be talented, you still need to work very hard at something for 10 years to be the best.
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Not even that. Meet Ashley Bathgate:

http://www.ashleybathgate.com/


I first met Ashley when she was 14 years old. Her father brought her to me to do some work on her cello and bow. I made a couple of minor adjustments to her instrument and asked her to play for me. It was instantly apparent to me that this young lady was already an extremely accomplished cellist.

I quickly deduced that she:

A. Was a prodigious natural talent.

B. Had begun as a very young child, starting with the violin, then graduating to the cello as she grew.

C. Had a much better instructor than any of the local professionals, because she was better than any of them, and I knew them all.


Well, I was right about the natural ability part.


Ashley took up the cello on a whim just two years prior to our meeting. Both Mom and Dad were professional rodeo people, and were not musicians at all. Ashley lived on the road with them for most of her childhood. Although her parents were not musicians, they fostered a love of all kinds of music in her. So, when her middle school began to offer instruments to interested students...


"I picked the cello, ’cause I felt like it, and I started playing it, but I was like a normal kid, I wanted to go outside and play every day after school, I didn’t want to practice, I didn’t want to do any of this stuff, but I did, and actually after a year, I was going to quit. I told everyone “That was fun, but now I’m going to play the clarinet”, and everyone was like “NO! NO NO NO NO NO!! PLEASE DON’T QUIT! PLEASE DON’T STOP!” because I guess I was maybe showing some sort of promise towards the instrument, so, I said “All right If you feel that strongly about it!”


So, one year of lackluster practice (typically 1-2 hours a day, 4-5 days a week for most school kids), maybe totaling 500 hours or so, then one year of serious and dedicated practice after that before we first met. She was still in junior high during this time, so the most she may have practiced is four hours a day. So in total for the two years, I'm gonna estimate a maximum of 2000 hours. Probably a lot less.

What is so intriguing to me about this young lady is that she didn't fit the standard model of a young cellist who played at this level. She wasn't a child prodigy, she wasn't surrounded my great musicians her whole life, she didn't have a great teacher at all, and yet she emerged as a fully-formed musician basically on her own, at an age where most child prodigies' careers are over. Add to that the fact that she didn't just get through the music technically like most accomplished youths. She PLAYED it, like a very seasoned adult recitalist.

If you were to compare her abilities after two years to those of a recognized pool player, I'd say she played at Jeremy Sossei or maybe Shaun Wilkie speed. Not yet elite, but pretty damn impressive. Check out her website to see where she is as a musician today.
 
JB Cases said:
Science is unlocking the mysteries here that govern why we are what we are. When that happens ask yourself this.......

IF you could go in for a procedure that would make you be able to perform a task at the highest level possible would you do it?

If you could take a drug that would clear away any mental blocks and give you the requisite desire to hone your skills to the highest level humanly possible would you do it?

If you could choose your child's career in the womb would you do it?

If the entire world was full of people who were using all of their mental and physical capabilities to the highest possible level would that be a better world?

And lastly is this what the alien overlords have been pushing us towards? :-)
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If you are asking if we believe in eugenics, racism, and a Brave New World because we believe that talent can have strong genetic components, the answer from my viewpoint is NO WAY!
 
Ken_4fun said:
It appears that I disagree with most here.

You cant take a plow horse and win the Kentucky Derby, I don't care how much "Desire", or "Practice" or whatever, it isn't going to happen, ever.

Most things in life we can affect, but we cant change them. It is mostly genetics.

Keith McCready, (don't kill me JAM), I have read has incredible eye sight, and a natural great hand and eye coordination (plays about the same with either hand). His life, was pool, as a child and he had tons of hours practicing it. I have heard so many times he was pool prodigy. But if he didn't have eagle eyes, and great hand and eye coordination, it wouldn't have made any difference how many hours he played, he wouldn't have been an elite player with all of them. Keith is a freak, like Secretariat, Muhammad Ali, Babe Ruth, where all the genetics, lined up and he luckily was able find a sport or game that he could capitalize those genetics. (I re-read that and felt like I should give a better explaination of freak, it is not 1 out of 100, or 1 out of 1000, it is probably 1 out of 1,000,000.)

I don't know how many times I have met great pool players, who were great golfers too. This is another game that uses almost same skills as pool and IMO, there is never a surprise when a golfer plays pool or a pool player plays golf.

Its the genes, we like to think we all could be like Keith, or Efren, or Sigel, or Hall, but the sad fact is their genetics give them such an advantage it cannot be overcome. So to answer the question, "Are elite athletes born or made?", my answer is if you have the superior genetics to become elite, then they could be made. If you don't have then genetics, you can be great, but you can never be elite.


Ken
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I scanned the very first line about "elite" and it didn't stick. :grin-square:

So I vote ELITE athletes are BORN, and don't have to work as hard as other non-Elite athletes to obtain the same level of skill. If they (elite athletes) work harder than their specialty gene counterparts, there is no contest.

STILL: Each and every year, there are stories of athletes that have achieved phenomenal success in their respective sports and almost every one of them involves HARD WORK, not just a select group of genes that make them faster, stronger or more coordinated than their peers.

JoeyA
 
BeiberLvr said:
Probably because a horse can't comprehend desire :)
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Trust me, a champion thoroughbred like Secretariat has a very strong desire to not see any other horse's ass in his face. ;)

I don't think any other living animal has more heart than a racehorse. The best of them will die rather than quit on you. Having been around these magnificent beasts for several years in my youth, I feel very strongly that this is an inherited quality.
 
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