Are Elite Athletes Born or Made

Ken_4fun said:
It appears that I disagree with most here.

You cant take a plow horse and win the Kentucky Derby, I don't care how much "Desire", or "Practice" or whatever, it isn't going to happen, ever.

Most things in life we can affect, but we cant change them. It is mostly genetics.

Keith McCready, (don't kill me JAM), I have read has incredible eye sight, and a natural great hand and eye coordination (plays about the same with either hand). His life, was pool, as a child and he had tons of hours practicing it. I have heard so many times he was pool prodigy. But if he didn't have eagle eyes, and great hand and eye coordination, it wouldn't have made any difference how many hours he played, he wouldn't have been an elite player with all of them. Keith is a freak, like Secretariat, Muhammad Ali, Babe Ruth, where all the genetics, lined up and he luckily was able find a sport or game that he could capitalize those genetics. (I re-read that and felt like I should give a better explaination of freak, it is not 1 out of 100, or 1 out of 1000, it is probably 1 out of 1,000,000.)

I don't know how many times I have met great pool players, who were great golfers too. This is another game that uses almost same skills as pool and IMO, there is never a surprise when a golfer plays pool or a pool player plays golf.

Its the genes, we like to think we all could be like Keith, or Efren, or Sigel, or Hall, but the sad fact is their genetics give them such an advantage it cannot be overcome. So to answer the question, "Are elite athletes born or made?", my answer is if you have the superior genetics to become elite, then they could be made. If you don't have then genetics, you can be great, but you can never be elite.


Ken
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Bingo! Just watch Jacoby Ellsbury (Center field. Yankees) steal a base....that kind of speed can be fine tuned by learning the techniques of base running, but you need to be born with those fast legs to begin with. Some people are just born to become elite athletes. How well they develop that talent is up to them.
 
pwd72s said:
Bingo! Just watch Jacoby Ellsbury (Center field. Yankees) steal a base....that kind of speed can be fine tuned by learning the techniques of base running, but you need to be born with those fast legs to begin with. Some people are just born to become elite athletes. How well they develop that talent is up to them.
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And you can take that example and show that there have been many major leaguers equally as fast afoot as Ellsbury over the years, yet nowhere near as good at stealing bases because they didn't put the work into learning th craft, and studying pitchers tendencies.

Born and Made.
 
Wow, after reading your comments on my post you guys understood what I was trying to say.

Sometimes, I have hard time communicating my thoughts.

Ken
 
Texas Dolly

easy-e said:
Lol. Doyle Brunson, the elite athlete.
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Funny you would mention it, but as a side note, Doyle Brunson was a very good athlete. I believe he ran track and played basketball at the collegiate level, and was even recruited by the Minneapolis Lakers to play basketball.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Trust me, a champion thoroughbred like Secretariat has a very strong desire to not see any other horse's ass in his face. ;)

I don't think any other living animal has more heart than a racehorse. The best of them will die rather than quit on you. Having been around these magnificent beasts for several years in my youth, I feel very strongly that this is an inherited quality.
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I once read that in an autopsy it was discovered that Secretariat's heart was 5 times the size of most horse's.
 
With both pool and athletic sports, it is a combination of both, but it's more of a talent factor with the athletic sports.

If I were to practice 8-10 hours a day for the next 3 to 5 years, I could definitely compete in any pool tournament. Does this mean I would be as good as guys like Shane, Orcullo, Thorsten, etc? No, but I'd be able to play them and actually have a chance of winning.

Now if I were to do the same for an athletic sport like baseball. Practice 8-10 hours a day, and have a ton of coaching. The best I could ever hope for is to be decent in the minors, but I'd have NO SHOT at being in the majors.
 
BJTyler said:
Funny you would mention it, but as a side note, Doyle Brunson was a very good athlete. I believe he ran track and played basketball at the collegiate level, and was even recruited by the Minneapolis Lakers to play basketball.
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I mean right now, not in college. How about we use another example. Greg Raymer: world champion. Elite athlete???
 
I am of the belief that natural talent is often way over-rated, and also way under-rated. Yes, that sounds wishy-washy, but it's really not. I do believe that God have given all of us some kind of talent. It is up to us to find out what it is, and nurture that talent. At the same time, I believe that most use "I don't have a natural talent for that" as an easy excuse to not even give an honest effort at trying something new. It gives them a built-in excuse to fail and not work hard.

I believe men have a higher natural talent for pool than women do. This is due to the way our brains are wired differently. Yet, while the women may never be able to equal the elite of the men, they are fully capable of achieving a very high level of play, well into the "pro" range. Just not at the very top of the pro range.

I also believe that "normal" people are able to achieve the level of pro in pool with proper instruction and dedication and practice. Some will get there sooner than others, and with less work. But, that does not equate to the reasoning some have that they can't get there at all.

Also, when it comes to pool, it is extremely difficult to narrow down just what "natural" talents are even needed. Some are obvious, such as eye-hand co-ordination. However, how much of eye-hand co-ordination is even a talent, and not just training??

If I take a newborn, and give him/her a mobile to stare at, and a few small toys to touch and play with, then as soon as possible, start gently tossing that fluff toy to the child, that child will be learning eye-hand co-ordination possibly years before the child that has nothing to play with, but is only read to all the time. The boy that plays ball will build up EHC must faster than the girl that plays with dolls. Then, when put on a pool table, the guy will "naturally" be better at the get-go than the girl is. But, what you fail to see, is that the guy had a lot of training already.

Yes, the elite most likely have something that the rest of us do not. But, we can still achieve a very, very high level and be competitive. The problem with pool is, who wants to work that hard for ego being the only goal at the end?
 
easy-e said:
I mean right now, not in college. How about we use another example. Greg Raymer: world champion. Elite athlete???
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...would you believe that Greg Raymer was actually a D1 level gymnast in his prime?

btw...I of course agree that poker requires a minimum of athletic ability...perhaps related to stamina.
 
justadub said:
And you can take that example and show that there have been many major leaguers equally as fast afoot as Ellsbury over the years, yet nowhere near as good at stealing bases because they didn't put the work into learning th craft, and studying pitchers tendencies.

Born and Made.
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I prefer born THEN made. The talent can be born with, but then there also must be the burning desire to work with the natural talent that genetics gifted the person with.
That's what turns a "born" athlete into an elite one.

Nearly 93% of the time when stealing a base, Jacoby was successful during last season. That's one amazing stat. The Red Sox should have paid the price & kept him. I'm no Yankees fan, but kudos to Jacoby. He's come a long way from the Warm Springs reservation of Oregon.

"There is more to being a great base stealer than just being fast. Yes you need a considerably fast top speed, but you need incredible reaction time, you need to accelerate clean off the bag, and you need the instinct to slide, dive, or do whatever it takes to avoid tags. And as important as all of it is one’s ability to get on base. It is all of these attributes working together that makes a Ricky Henderson, Lou Brock, Tim Raines, Joe Morgan, Dave Roberts, or Jacoby Ellsbury. Here is a look at the top base stealers of 2013 ranked by way of Stolen Base Percentage (Qualifying players had at least 30 stolen bases).


2013 Base Stealers




SB

CS

SB%

OBP

1. Jacoby Ellsbury 52 4 92.9% .355
2. Alex Rios 42 7 85.7% .324
3. Carlos Gomez 40 7 85.1% .338
4. Elvis Andrus 42 8 84.0% .328
5. Mike Trout 33 7 82.5% .432
6. Jason Kipnis 30 7 81.1% .366
7. Nate McLouth 30 7 81.1% .329
8. Eric Young Jr. 46 11 80.7% .310
9. Leonys Martin 36 9 80.0% .313
10. Jean Segura 44 13 77.2% .329
11. Alexei Ramirez 30 9 76.9% .313
12. Starling Marte 41 15 73.2% .343
13. Jose Altuve 35 13 72.9% .316


Created by BaseballAnalytics.org on 1/8/2014"
 
Born. Each person has a ceiling they can reach but not everyone can reach elite status. A 5`8 person want be a guard in the nfl nor a center in the nba. Also each sport relies on different traits. Take me for example. I could run the 100m in 10.8 sec which is good for a high school kid. I worked, trained, lifted and everything else under the sun but I was never going to be a usaine bolt. It wasn't cause of desire it was because my body had reached its peak capabilities. Same way everyone can't bench 600lbs no matter how much they work at it. I think what it comes down to is you have to be born with the natural talent and then it's up to you too reach that potential. I also don't consider pool, checkers, chess, or poker a sport
 
BeiberLvr said:
With both pool and athletic sports, it is a combination of both, but it's more of a talent factor with the athletic sports.

If I were to practice 8-10 hours a day for the next 3 to 5 years, I could definitely compete in any pool tournament. Does this mean I would be as good as guys like Shane, Orcullo, Thorsten, etc? No, but I'd be able to play them and actually have a chance of winning.

Now if I were to do the same for an athletic sport like baseball. Practice 8-10 hours a day, and have a ton of coaching. The best I could ever hope for is to be decent in the minors, but I'd have NO SHOT at being in the majors.
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You would have zero chance of winning , don't care how much you practice ,,


1
 
pwd72s said:
I prefer born THEN made. The talent can be born with, but then there also must be the burning desire to work with the natural talent that genetics gifted the person with.
That's what turns a "born" athlete into an elite one.

Nearly 93% of the time when stealing a base, Jacoby was successful during last season. That's one amazing stat. The Red Sox should have paid the price & kept him. I'm no Yankees fan, but kudos to Jacoby. He's come a long way from the Warm Springs reservation of Oregon.

"There is more to being a great base stealer than just being fast. Yes you need a considerably fast top speed, but you need incredible reaction time, you need to accelerate clean off the bag, and you need the instinct to slide, dive, or do whatever it takes to avoid tags. And as important as all of it is one’s ability to get on base. It is all of these attributes working together that makes a Ricky Henderson, Lou Brock, Tim Raines, Joe Morgan, Dave Roberts, or Jacoby Ellsbury. Here is a look at the top base stealers of 2013 ranked by way of Stolen Base Percentage (Qualifying players had at least 30 stolen bases).


2013 Base Stealers




SB

CS

SB%

OBP

1. Jacoby Ellsbury 52 4 92.9% .355
2. Alex Rios 42 7 85.7% .324
3. Carlos Gomez 40 7 85.1% .338
4. Elvis Andrus 42 8 84.0% .328
5. Mike Trout 33 7 82.5% .432
6. Jason Kipnis 30 7 81.1% .366
7. Nate McLouth 30 7 81.1% .329
8. Eric Young Jr. 46 11 80.7% .310
9. Leonys Martin 36 9 80.0% .313
10. Jean Segura 44 13 77.2% .329
11. Alexei Ramirez 30 9 76.9% .313
12. Starling Marte 41 15 73.2% .343
13. Jose Altuve 35 13 72.9% .316


Created by BaseballAnalytics.org on 1/8/2014"
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Ellsbury is a very interesting and apt ecample for this exercise, because "heart" or lack thereof has been in the discussion with him for years now.

His apparent lack of willingness to play while hurt has dogged him over the last few years, and that is no doubt part of the reason Boston didn't try to match the Yankees in order to sign him. (Full disclosure, I'm a Sox fan.)

It gets complicated, of course, when heart is compromised by money, and Ellsbury is represented by Scott Boras, who has tremendous influence. It is very likely that there were times that Ellsbury could have played but did not, under guidance of Mr. Boras, in order to not jeopordize his future contract negotiations.

Either that or he simply isn't tough enough. I prefer to place the responsibility with Boras.

The Yankees will never get the value out of that contract, which is why Boston chose not to go to that length with him. Will he be missed, yes. But the Sox won't be hamstrung with that contract in the future, either.

Sorry for the derail.

Still, he is proof=born talent, made elite.
 
Celtic said:
I dont think Bieber understands that humans are in fact primates and simply another form of animal. He obviously feels like we are the special little butterflies of the universe.
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Humans -- whether considered animal or not are clearly able to control their instincts and even shape them to a certain extent.

I'm certain that was all he was getting at. Must everything be picked apart on this site?

I mean if you really want to give the Biebs a hard time -- give him one based on his assessment that he could become a very good minor league ball player. :thumbup:
 
First, pool is a sport. It belongs in the category of aiming sports with others such as shooting, archery, and golf. Aiming sports are far more mental focused than physical and there are elite athletes in all of these aiming sports.

Deliberate practice mentioned in earlier posts was also referred to in a short white paper by the Harvard Business Review in 2007 (The Making of an Expert).

The concluding sentence: "New research shows that outstanding performance is the product of years of deliberate practice and coaching, not of any innate talent or skill."
 
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