How beneficial is an aiming system?

Just like hitting baseballs. Watch all the videos you want. Read all the books you want. If you don't bring your kid to the ballpark and ruin batting gloves from him hitting so many balls he will never be a solid hitter. He needs to learn how to hit good pitches. Bad pitches. Borderline pitches. Practice. Repition. Experience.

If your choosing to make money by selling something then yeah I understand plugging it at every chance you get too.

But practice and muscle memory with a good loose stroke. Same for baseball and pool.
 
Aligning the CB edge to a/b/c aim points on an OB and CB center to OB edge is not hard. The rotation I admit, can be tricky. But like anything it takes work and can be mastered. I like that better than trying to see something that is just not there. I used to be an aim by feel/instinct, ghost ball, contact point player. But no longer, now that I have learned CTE PRO 1.

I don't think I have ever seen a post where Stan side-stepped or back-peddled. What science do you need? The beauty of CTE PRO 1 is that it is all about visual and physical intelligence with the objectivity of known aim points and a physical rotation that puts you on the correct path to the pocket.

You want proof of someone getting better? My personal story is that I recently started playing again after a four year layoff. I completely stopped playing during that time. I started playing around again this past December. Since then I started playing in a nine ball league and was rated as an A player. Shortly after I discovered Stan's system and ordered his DVD2. I worked on it daily and within eight weeks I improved to a AAA and placed 3rd in a local 10 ball tournament with some really good local talent.

What science do I need? I don't know.. whatever science shows that it works?

You also didn't make it sound easier aligning points instead of just shooting the ball where it needs to go to make the other ball fall.

Again, your story is very vague, but I've said that in a previous post regarding that as proof.

Take an APA 3 that's been stuck there for years, turn them into a 7(or even a 5 or 6) and show me their APA stat history because that can be looked up rather easily on their site.

If anybody wants to provide proof that it works as claimed, feel free to start a thread in the aiming forum stating such. Until then, I'm still not buying into it.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled threads..
 
Just because something is in a book does not make it fact.

Mark does NOT understand real CTE nor can he use the system. That MUST be taken into account. If what I say about real CTE connecting to a table is true then assumptions that others make about what CTE is without true knowledge has to be factored in.

Stan Shuffett

And....the best player in Mark's program uses ProOne on every shot.



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I guess you figure that if you post that nonsense enough times, people will believe it. But why you even want people to believe it is still beyond me. There have been numerous posts about the science of it, and why it cannot be mathematically shown, and even if it could, it would mean nothing to you. There have also been numerous posts, including mine, and Gerry's, of people getting better using it. You can say we were already "good", but that term is very subjective. Good compared to whom?

If you don't want to learn a different way to aim, then don't. It's that simple. But for you and others to get on here and do nothing but bash something you know nothing about when others are trying to help someone, well, what do you call that? How is that helping the OP at all? So, since you aren't trying to actually help anyone here, what is your point of posting at all?? Just to cause angst on here?? And, that is not just for you, but for the others that have no idea what they are even talking about.

I'm not the one posting "nonsense". People keep saying it will make you better than Jesus, but provide no proof. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Yet, you call my questions nonsense? That's a good one. If you call questioning something and asking for proof, "bashing".. then, yes, I guess I'm "bashing" something by asking for proof.

If you don't mind, I've got to go back to being an APA 2 and throwing my stick at the ball.

As I said in my previous post.. feel free to put up a thread in the Aiming Forum showing proof and then I'll check it out. M'kay, buh-bye.
 
To the ops question...

I don't want to get pulled into an aiming system argument, but I will address the ops question.

Gaining ability in pool is more about obtaining knowledge than anything. The knowledge that goes into top flight pool is so vast, it is difficult for most to grasp.

There is no such thing as a total feel player. Players who rely on instinct typically have tons of knowledge that they are applying along with gobs of practice and usually relatively sound fundamentals which goes back to knowledge again.

There are basically two types of knowledge that apply to pool. There is game specific knowledge and there is personal knowledge.

Game specific knowledge is best illustrated by top one pocket players. They usually had someone coach and show them this knowledge. It is very rare for people to attain game specific knowledge on their own. They are usually taken under the wing of someone at a young age because they show promise or a strong desire.

While this type of knowledge is necessary to attain high levels of play the knowledge that usually leads to the most improvement is personal knowledge.

Personal knowledge is knowledge about your game. What stance works best for you, what bridge, what preshot routine.

Personal knowledge is knowing what you do wrong when miss and what you do right when you do what you want.

There is a danger in using HAMB or other "Instinctual" learning systems. This is positive reward for negative behavior.

If both your aim and your stroke is flawed, you will make balls and reinforce those flaws in your game.

This is the biggest reason why people usually have to start at a young age with a good mentor.

Once those negative behaviors are positively reinforced, it becomes VERY difficult to get rid of those behaviors and people will often wonder why they miss even when they feel they stroked it right, or "Knew" they were aiming right.

This is where aiming systems can help. If you have an aiming system that you KNOW is accurate, it can help to isolate flaws in your stroke.

Here is the downfall in this though. There are TONS of variables that any aiming system has to account for.

There's squirt, CIT, swerve, etc...

However, once you have a starting point AND you practice a LOT, you can better learn how to adjust for these factors and develop the personal knowledge to know what best works for you.

There's a reason that stagnation occurs and gains in ability seem to occur in huge jumps followed by periods of lackluster play or even reversions to lesser ability of play.

It's because you are having to learn all of these minute changes and then adjust your style of play to fit your new personal knowledge.

This is one reason why there are specific progressions people should follow if they want to maximize their ultimate ability.

1) you shouldn't be hitting balls until you can readily repeat a good stroke with a solid follow through.

2) When you do start hitting balls, you should be using a simple, easy to use aiming system like ghost ball that is not too convoluted.

3) You shouldn't be trying any English without first understanding what is involved in it. I.e., understanding tangent line, stun, parabolic curves for follow and draw, CIT for certain angles and conditions, squirt, swerve for sidespin. These are some of the prerequisites for advanced position play.

4) advanced understanding only comes with knowledge and experience using that knowledge.

I can't reiterate enough how much knowledge plays a part in advancing your ability. The biggest reason for stagnation is a lack of attaining greater knowledge in pool.

There is a tendency when gaining greater ability, to think you know it all and that all you have to do now is practice. You never have too much knowledge and you rarely if ever have enough, depending on what your ultimate goal in pool is.

Jaden
 
Just because something is in a book does not make it fact.

Mark does NOT understand real CTE nor can he use the system. That MUST be taken into account. If what I say about real CTE connecting to a table is true then assumptions that others make about what CTE is without true knowledge has to be factored in.

Stan Shuffett


By the same token, just because *you* say something does not make it fact either.

Lou Figueroa
just sayin'
 
What science do I need? I don't know.. whatever science shows that it works?

You also didn't make it sound easier aligning points instead of just shooting the ball where it needs to go to make the other ball fall.

Again, your story is very vague, but I've said that in a previous post regarding that as proof.

Take an APA 3 that's been stuck there for years, turn them into a 7(or even a 5 or 6) and show me their APA stat history because that can be looked up rather easily on their site.

If anybody wants to provide proof that it works as claimed, feel free to start a thread in the aiming forum stating such. Until then, I'm still not buying into it.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled threads..

I've gotten better.

I don't play APA (or any other leagues).

How would you like me to prove my improvement to you?
 
Translation:

My info is out there loud and clear = buy my DVD.

Lou Figueroa
and if "the truth"
doesn't work for you
it's your fault

In my case I did buy his DVD and I found the only proof I found was that the very concerns and flaws people express about CTE were shown loud and clear.

Not trying to start an aiming system war, but since the topic is "How beneficial is an aiming system?" I will offer my opinion that stance and fundamentals are much more important. By a long shot. The aiming tends to come near automatically while practicing everything else.
 
[/B]

Good point. I really had not thought of it that way.I do use some aiming tricks.But not a "system" as others are touting.
For instance I shoot long shots and long straight shots good enough for people to ask how I do it.The "system" i use is self taught and probably used by others,but nobody told me about it. It just came to me.
I get my aim by looking thru the ball at a spot on the rail and shoot for that and just let the object ball "get in the way".
Long straight shots i pick a spot in the back of the pocket and aim for that and just let the object ball get in the way.
So yes I guess i use a system of sorts but it's all mainly self taught thru trial and error.

And, one of the differences between your "system" and the SYSTEMS out there, is that the SYSTEMS have broken down each step to do. You learned your system through trial and error and never had the need to break it down into each step. Yet, it works for you. The SYSTEMS have just "written out" a series of steps so that others can also learn how to do it. There are many, many, many aiming systems out there. Some are actually rather stupid, some are fantastic. But, no one is making two balls in a row without some kind of aiming system.
 
So basically at this point in my game would it be beneficial for me to look into an aiming system? I'm afraid of "cluttering" my head with things that are best left to the subconscious. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Well you certainly picked a controversial question.

Short answer is yes. Long answer is that aiming is only one part of the process but is the first part.





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In my case I did buy his DVD and I found the only proof I found was that the very concerns and flaws people express about CTE were shown loud and clear.

Not trying to start an aiming system war, but since the topic is "How beneficial is an aiming system?" I will offer my opinion that stance and fundamentals are much more important. By a long shot. The aiming tends to come near automatically while practicing everything else.

shinobi

You didn't try hard enough.
You didn't work with it long enough.
You didn't come to it with an open mind.

Stan, did I leave anything out? Can he get a refund on the DVD?

Lou Figueroa
I know, I know
No on the refund
 
Interesting Comment

In my case I did buy his DVD and I found the only proof I found was that the very concerns and flaws people express about CTE were shown loud and clear.

Not trying to start an aiming system war, but since the topic is "How beneficial is an aiming system?" I will offer my opinion that stance and fundamentals are much more important. By a long shot. The aiming tends to come near automatically while practicing everything else.

Shinobi,
That's an interesting comment, Stan seems to have a lot of support what bothered you about CTE?
 
By the same token, just because *you* say something does not make it fact either.

Lou Figueroa
just sayin'

My work is totally out there about a subject that I have thoroughly studied.

Mark has not studied CTE to any significant degree, hardly at all and I am sure he would concur.

Mark and I agree on a ton stuff.

Stan Shuffett
 
What science do I need? I don't know.. whatever science shows that it works?

You also didn't make it sound easier aligning points instead of just shooting the ball where it needs to go to make the other ball fall.

Again, your story is very vague, but I've said that in a previous post regarding that as proof.

Take an APA 3 that's been stuck there for years, turn them into a 7(or even a 5 or 6) and show me their APA stat history because that can be looked up rather easily on their site.

If anybody wants to provide proof that it works as claimed, feel free to start a thread in the aiming forum stating such. Until then, I'm still not buying into it.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled threads..

I've gotten better.

I don't play APA (or any other leagues).

How would you like me to prove my improvement to you?

One more thing.

Your logic is completely flawed.

I can travel the globe and gather every single ghost ball user out there, and I'll bet $10,000 of John Barton's money that there will be more players that aren't any significantly better than they were 5 years ago.

I guess that means ghost ball doesn't work either, right?

Heck, all you need to do is look at our resident ghost ball/arrow/contact patch expert, Duckie. He's been going at it for years now, and still sucks at pool.
 
shinobi

You didn't try hard enough.
You didn't work with it long enough.
You didn't come to it with an open mind.

Stan, did I leave anything out? Can he get a refund on the DVD?

Lou Figueroa
I know, I know
No on the refund

He mirrored EXACTLY what you did. Much of nothing.

You squealed refunds even after you sold yours for $30.
Boy, that says something!

Stan Shuffett
 
My work is totally out there about a subject that I have thoroughly studied.

Mark had not studied CTE to any significant degree, hardly at all and I am sure he would concur.

Mark and I agree on a ton stuff.

Stan Shuffett


You offer no sound arguments to support your point of view. It's always the same thing: I've studied it (so what); Mark has not studied but would concur (how do you know); Corey would benefit (you don't know that); and blah, blah, blah.

If just once you put forth a hypothesis, gave your supporting data and arguments, and defended your position in a logical manner at least that would be something.

But you don't.

Lou Figueroa
 
One more thing.

Your logic is completely flawed.

I can travel the globe and gather every single ghost ball user out there, and I'll bet $10,000 of John Barton's money that there will be more players that aren't any significantly better than they were 5 years ago.

I guess that means ghost ball doesn't work either, right?

Heck, all you need to do is look at our resident ghost ball/arrow/contact patch expert, Duckie. He's been going at it for years now, and still sucks at pool.

So, my logic is flawed, but making claims without any proof to back it up is just dandy?

I'm well aware of Duckie. I'm also well aware of players like Bartram. The issue before us is whether or not proof exists for the claims that are being made here. Not when I was involved in previous threads years ago, nor now, has anybody provided one shred of evidence to support the claims being made.
 
He mirrored EXACTLY what you did. Much of nothing.

You squealed refunds even after you sold yours for $30.
Boy, that says something!

Stan Shuffett

Since you would not honor your claim that your DVD would "stand alone," a refund should have immediately been in order for me and all those who were dissatisfied.

But no, you took the dough and ran.

I sold because you would not refund.

Lou Figueroa
 
I don't want to get pulled into an aiming system argument, but I will address the ops question.

Gaining ability in pool is more about obtaining knowledge than anything. The knowledge that goes into top flight pool is so vast, it is difficult for most to grasp.

There is no such thing as a total feel player. Players who rely on instinct typically have tons of knowledge that they are applying along with gobs of practice and usually relatively sound fundamentals which goes back to knowledge again.

There are basically two types of knowledge that apply to pool. There is game specific knowledge and there is personal knowledge.

Game specific knowledge is best illustrated by top one pocket players. They usually had someone coach and show them this knowledge. It is very rare for people to attain game specific knowledge on their own. They are usually taken under the wing of someone at a young age because they show promise or a strong desire.

While this type of knowledge is necessary to attain high levels of play the knowledge that usually leads to the most improvement is personal knowledge.

Personal knowledge is knowledge about your game. What stance works best for you, what bridge, what preshot routine.

Personal knowledge is knowing what you do wrong when miss and what you do right when you do what you want.

There is a danger in using HAMB or other "Instinctual" learning systems. This is positive reward for negative behavior.

If both your aim and your stroke is flawed, you will make balls and reinforce those flaws in your game.

This is the biggest reason why people usually have to start at a young age with a good mentor.

Once those negative behaviors are positively reinforced, it becomes VERY difficult to get rid of those behaviors and people will often wonder why they miss even when they feel they stroked it right, or "Knew" they were aiming right.

This is where aiming systems can help. If you have an aiming system that you KNOW is accurate, it can help to isolate flaws in your stroke.

Here is the downfall in this though. There are TONS of variables that any aiming system has to account for.

There's squirt, CIT, swerve, etc...

However, once you have a starting point AND you practice a LOT, you can better learn how to adjust for these factors and develop the personal knowledge to know what best works for you.

There's a reason that stagnation occurs and gains in ability seem to occur in huge jumps followed by periods of lackluster play or even reversions to lesser ability of play.

It's because you are having to learn all of these minute changes and then adjust your style of play to fit your new personal knowledge.

This is one reason why there are specific progressions people should follow if they want to maximize their ultimate ability.

1) you shouldn't be hitting balls until you can readily repeat a good stroke with a solid follow through.

2) When you do start hitting balls, you should be using a simple, easy to use aiming system like ghost ball that is not too convoluted.

3) You shouldn't be trying any English without first understanding what is involved in it. I.e., understanding tangent line, stun, parabolic curves for follow and draw, CIT for certain angles and conditions, squirt, swerve for sidespin. These are some of the prerequisites for advanced position play.

4) advanced understanding only comes with knowledge and experience using that knowledge.

I can't reiterate enough how much knowledge plays a part in advancing your ability. The biggest reason for stagnation is a lack of attaining greater knowledge in pool.

There is a tendency when gaining greater ability, to think you know it all and that all you have to do now is practice. You never have too much knowledge and you rarely if ever have enough, depending on what your ultimate goal in pool is.

Jaden

Great post except for number two. Most players have no clue what they are doing wrong that is holding them back, no real desire to learn that knowledge, and think all they have to do is hit more balls. Nothing could be farther from the truth. That old adage of "you don't know what you don't know" really fits when it comes to playing pool. Perfect example is that guy that posted that every APA 6 knows how to aim properly. He just doesn't know what he doesn't know.
 
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