How beneficial is an aiming system?

[mista335]

I don't mind if you want to challenge me on my words. It's far better than random insults about being closed minded, that's for sure

It wasn't the 15/30 perception that was based on experience, it was the pivot from right to left, or left to right. Watch the video, as I'm curious what you feel about the two example shots which are quite similar, and are certainly the same style or cut, just a little different yet requiring different pivot directions.

This is what I do to choose a pivot direction.

Once you have acquired your visuals, look at the shot.

For a cut to the left:

Does the shot need 'thinning' to make it? Use a left pivot.

Does the shot need 'thickening' to make it? Use a right pivot.

Be aware that a left 'A' pivot is the same as a right 'B' pivot.

If you are down on the shot, most people can see if the shot is not going in, either going to overcut or undercut. Just use the opposite pivot.

Once you have a lot of successful shots under your belt it really becomes second nature and you'll rarely think about it.

 

[shinobi]

This is what I do to choose a pivot direction.

Once you have acquired your visuals, look at the shot.

For a cut to the left:

Does the shot need 'thinning' to make it? Use a left pivot.

Does the shot need 'thickening' to make it? Use a right pivot.

Be aware that a left 'A' pivot is the same as a right 'B' pivot.

If you are down on the shot, most people can see if the shot is not going in, either going to overcut or undercut. Just use the opposite pivot.

Once you have a lot of successful shots under your belt it really becomes second nature and you'll rarely think about it.

Thanks for your explanation. I'll give that a shot, especially what you said about the thicker versus thinner cuts.

 

[Gerry Williams]

Very well said. A and B are the same as described below within 4 diamonds. B is not a Pro One visual after 4 diamonds on the 9 footer.

The experience comes from table time - I now know exactly what visual and sweep to use before I even line up. This is the experience that Stan mentions.

When I first started I struggled to pick the right visuals and sweeps - but it does click when you stay with it. As you develop with CTE it makes aiming and the PSR so consistent that it is scary. This is why people get frustrated with all the nonsense - not only does it work well, it works better than anything I have seen in 20 years of playing.

I pick the visuals up immediately and sweep - I am not thinking about it at all. I see what needs to happen and I do it.

There is nothing for Stan or anyone else to prove - the system is different and for whatever reason is met with a lot of resistance.

This is what I do to choose a pivot direction.

Once you have acquired your visuals, look at the shot.

For a cut to the left:

Does the shot need 'thinning' to make it? Use a left pivot.

Does the shot need 'thickening' to make it? Use a right pivot.

Be aware that a left 'A' pivot is the same as a right 'B' pivot.

If you are down on the shot, most people can see if the shot is not going in, either going to overcut or undercut. Just use the opposite pivot.

Once you have a lot of successful shots under your belt it really becomes second nature and you'll rarely think about it.

 

[JB Cases]

CTE/ProOne and other aiming systems are like having a set of keys for almost any lock.

Feel/Ghost Ball is like having a set of lockpicking tools.

With CTE you literally have a small set of keys where one of them will work for any shot you face. Sometime two keys will work for one shot. With practice it becomes easy to instantly see which keys don't work and thus narrow down the choices to the the ones that probably work. With more practice the right key jumps to the front.

Ghost ball/Feel are ways to unlock shots as well but you have to spend more time using a set of generic tools to find the right combination. Having a set of master keys is way easier in my experience.

All the word wars are not needed. No one can prove with words that something does or does not work. I say it does you say it doesn't. The poor guy reading has no clue who to believe and walls of words make it worse.

The bottom line is that there are enough people who have put the time into these methods and coaches who teach them that they are worth looking into because they cannot hurt your game.

Recently I found out that Ron Vitello filmed his 90/90 video at the Accu-Stats arena. He did a three and a half hour video edited from much more footage to get this method preserved. I feel in my heart that Pat Fleming, himself a former professional player, would not allow his equipment to be used to produce something that scams the buyers.

These methods exist so for those of you who are interested in them go try them. You may find tremendous benefit and really grow your love of the game as you see your shotmaking skills increase by a lot.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[duckie]

So simple a cave man can use it......

 

[mista335]

So simple a cave man can use it......

As usual, another incredibly insightful analysis of CTE, coming from your comprehensive knowledge of the the subject and your amazing analytical mind.

I think your brain, like Einstein's, should be preserved for all time - preferably this week.

 

[bwally]

As usual, another incredibly insightful analysis of CTE, coming from your comprehensive knowledge of the the subject and your amazing analytical mind.

I think your brain, like Einstein's, should be preserved for all time - preferably this week.

I second that!

 

[Gerry Williams]

There is a ton of video proof - you just choose to ignore it. Like Stan said - show one shot that doesn't have a solution in CTE...

Didn't think so. The sad part is your hate is holding you back from discovering a wonderful way to play the game.

Stan and others contribute real value to the industry.

The burden of proof is not on me. You are the one selling something

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

So I'll start with some background on me. I started playing pool about 2.5 years ago at the age of 23 by joining my friends APA team. I had pretty much 0 experience but knew that I would love it as I am very competitive, and love physics and geometry. Bowling and drumming are two other things I excelled at previously, which require a lot of repetitive hand eye coordination type practice so I figured pool would be perfect for me.

Here's where I'm at now. I'm a 6 in the APA and i win about 65-70% of my matches each session. I know that APA skill levels are not the best indicator but it's the only way I can describe my "speed" on the internet in a way that most everyone can relate to. I'm proud of the fact that I've gotten to where I am in a relatively short time but know that I am still a VERY small fish.

I'm wondering now what is the best way to improve further. Obviously its practice practice practice, but what KIND of practice. Some people tell me to just "feel" and others preach aiming systems, and TOI, and all that jazz. One of the best players I've ever seen, Shannon Murphy from cinncinnati, said he pretty much just feels what he's doing. I think this is a little unfair though since he started playing at a VERY young age and has had some extremely good instruction throughout his life.

So far in my progression I've tended to try both. I've watched most of Dr. Dave Billiards videos and they have given me an understanding of what is actually going on from a physics standpoint. I then try and see it for myself on the table and put it in my memory banks. I know about cut induced throw/spin, spin induced throw/spin, rail spin reversal, the limits of a miscue, and so on. But is it worth it to actually THINK about all that when playing? I feel like it's much better to let your subconscious do all that.

So basically at this point in my game would it be beneficial for me to look into an aiming system? I'm afraid of "cluttering" my head with things that are best left to the subconscious. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Here are 37 videos on aiming that could help you.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSKV5CK_fziXC5F0oQJJ-yV7pAtT334y9

Here is Stan Shuffett's you tube page:

https://www.youtube.com/user/stanan...ao&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_483267

This is Gerry Williams youtube channel, Gerry is an avid student who uses CTE:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8rNnGNPTLwihnszKS4Zg2g

This is Mohrt's youtube channel - he also is a diligent student of CTE.
https://www.youtube.com/user/mohrtyahoo

If you would like to know how to perform all these shots consistently then my suggestion is you investigate these methods demonstrated and used by these people.

Forget about all the debate. Watch these videos, especially the ones by Stan, Gerry and Mohrt and judge for yourself if they are doing things you would like to be able to do. Try the shots yourself using whatever way you do it now.

That will tell you whether or not you want to invest time into learning other ways to aim that are potentially better than what you use now.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave (whom I respect for the work he has done), Bob Jewitt, Patrick Johnson and others have never offered one iota of factual proof or mathematical analysis to support any argument against CTE/Pro One. Does that seem a bit strange given their acknowledged expertise in science and physics?"

I have pointed out (in great detail) both limitations and benefits of aiming systems like CTE. For more information, see:

analysis and evaluation of the CTE approach of aiming

benefits of aiming systems like CTE

I did my best to present the facts in a way such that people can make up their own minds concerning whether CTE is a good approach for them or not. Some people think it is great, and other people think it is complete garbage.

Bottom line: if it works for you, use it.

Personally, I think it is futile to attempt to explain how it works with scientific arguments; although, I and others have done our best to do this on the resource pages linked above.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Gerry Williams]

Dave - you know I respect your work but there are absolutely no limitations with using CTE/Pro One.

I would love to hear them if there are because I haven't hit a shot in 1.5 years that didn't go with CTE. Including all the work on the exams you posted.

Cheers,
Gerry

I have pointed out (in great detail) both limitations and benefits of aiming systems like CTE. For more information, see:

analysis and evaluation of the CTE approach of aiming

benefits of aiming systems like CTE

I did my best to present the facts in a way such that people can make up their own minds concerning whether CTE is a good approach for them or not. Some people think it is great, and other people think it is complete garbage.

Bottom line: if it works for you, use it.

Personally, I think it is futile to attempt to explain how it works with scientific arguments; although, I and others have done our best to do this on the resource pages linked above.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[robsnotes4u]

all the videos

With all this videos out there, can someone break one down draw some arrows like Madden would at a football game to show everyone the proof that a person is using Pro One.

I do know this, I watched Stevie Moore play in New Town two years ago, and saw him put the tip of his cue where the base of the ball the cue ball would be during contact on a few shots. Especially on a long cut shot, and this was on a bar box. Yes he was promoting Pro One at the time, in fact, he had DVD's with him.

So back to the first paragraph, how do you know someone is using Pro One in the videos and not another subconscious aiming system that was learned earlier? What are the signs?

 

[BeiberLvr]

Dave - you know I respect your work but there are absolutely no limitations with using CTE/Pro One.

I would love to hear them if there are because I haven't hit a shot in 1.5 years that didn't go with CTE. Including all the work on the exams you posted.

Cheers,
Gerry

Oh, you mean the exam you have the best score on?

I like Dr. Dave, but it's obvious he still doesn't understand the system. Dave, what are the chances you'd ever pay a visit to Stan when you have some free time?

 

[cookie man]

Really? A someone claims their product will do something and that's it? No burden of proof?

The judge in the Kevin Trudeau case might disagree with you, lol.

Lou Figueroa

The legal system says " Innocent until proven guilty ". Please prove that CTE doesn't work.

 

[Gerry Williams]

Lol - he can't and it is killing him :grin-square:

The legal system says " Innocent until proven guilty ". Please prove that CTE doesn't work.

 

[dr_dave]

Dave - you know I respect your work but there are absolutely no limitations with using CTE/Pro One.

I would love to hear them if there are because I haven't hit a shot in 1.5 years that didn't go with CTE. Including all the work on the exams you posted.

If a person can use an "aiming system" effectively for every shot, then that system obviously has no limitations for that individual.

You are obviously a great shooter. I suspect you could perform well with any (or no) "aiming system," provided you have a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine and accurate and consistent visual alignment. In my view, these important fundamentals are really independent of any "aiming system" that might be used.

To me, the purpose for an "aiming system" is to determine the exact line of aim required to create the exact cut angle needed to send an object ball to the center of the pocket. I think most good players can judge the required line of aim for a shot "intuitively" or by "feel" (and take into account squirt, swerve, and throw, as appropriate). I suspect you (like most players who have put in countless hours practicing and playing) are very good at visualizing the required line of aim and don't need a prescribed "aiming system" to find it for you.

Regards,
Dave

 

[stan shuffett]

With all this videos out there, can someone break one down draw some arrows like Madden would at a football game to show everyone the proof that a person is using Pro One.

I do know this, I watched Stevie Moore play in New Town two years ago, and saw him put the tip of his cue where the base of the ball the cue ball would be during contact on a few shots. Especially on a long cut shot, and this was on a bar box. Yes he was promoting Pro One at the time, in fact, he had DVD's with him.

So back to the first paragraph, how do you know someone is using Pro One in the videos and not another subconscious aiming system that was learned earlier? What are the signs?

It is like Gerry said, there are NO LIMITATIONS with REAL CTE.

You brought up the same concern once before about Stevie. You must not trust Stevie and his word. He used CTE then just as he does now. A CTE player is allowed to look at whatever they want whether it be GB CP or fractions because there are NO LIMITATIONS but when the player steps back into ball address with the visuals, the sweep takes the player to the correct shot line.

Stan Shuffett

 

[JB Cases]

With all this videos out there, can someone break one down draw some arrows like Madden would at a football game to show everyone the proof that a person is using Pro One.

I do know this, I watched Stevie Moore play in New Town two years ago, and saw him put the tip of his cue where the base of the ball the cue ball would be during contact on a few shots. Especially on a long cut shot, and this was on a bar box. Yes he was promoting Pro One at the time, in fact, he had DVD's with him.

So back to the first paragraph, how do you know someone is using Pro One in the videos and not another subconscious aiming system that was learned earlier? What are the signs?

Honesty.

There is simply no reason for all these people to lie about it.

As for using other methods, when you know how to use all the tools you can choose whatever one you want to use at any time.

I can and do use Ghost Ball or something like it once in a while for some shots because that is what I feel best with at that moment.

No person here who does not know how to use ProOne/CTE can ever use it in any situation. Those who do use it have zero incentive to say they do when they don't.

Among the red herring arguments against CTE (and other methods) this one is by far the silliest. Seriously if we can't assume a basic premise of honesty in the people who are putting themselves out there to teach other people methods that those teachers think will help the students play better pool then we should really go find another hobby.

Because really no one is getting rich on this. Stan only made the damn DVDs because of the constant defamation. Otherwise he would have never needed to make a DVD. As it is he gives away most of the farm for free on the YouTube videos. Gerry and Mohrt give away a ton of knowledge if one just listens to their narration.

The amount of energy expended by those who teach these methods and satisfied students ought to count for at least a presumption of honesty. As has been said dozens of times CTE/ProOne movements look natural. No one can really "see" what method is being used because it's all perception leading to body placement. If one wants to overlap several methods that's also their choice.

Doing a frame by frame analysis would likely not accomplish much in the way of having any of those who are philosophically opposed to the methods change their minds. We have already handed you all the proof you have previously asked for. It's enough.

Go duplicate the videos if you can. If you can then awesome, you don't need to change. If you can't then maybe you might want to try the methods being demonstrated.

 

[JB Cases]

If a person can use an "aiming system" effectively for every shot, then that system obviously has no limitations for that individual.

You are obviously a great shooter. I suspect you could perform well with any (or no) "aiming system," provided you have a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine and accurate and consistent visual alignment. In my view, these important fundamentals are really independent of any "aiming system" that might be used.

To me, the purpose for an "aiming system" is to determine the exact line of aim required to create the exact cut angle needed to send an object ball to the center of the pocket. I think most good players can judge the required line of aim for a shot "intuitively" or by "feel" (and take into account squirt, swerve, and throw, as appropriate). I suspect you (like most players who have put in countless hours practicing and playing) are very good at visualizing the required line of aim and don't need a prescribed "aiming system" to find it for you.

Regards,
Dave

Why do you use the word suspect? Why can't you accept that a person knows themselves well enough to see their own improvement and knows the reasons for it?

If intuitive players were able to be as good as Gerry is then why aren't any of them above him on your exams? And you are certainly not an intuitive player at this point.

You're the only one above him and your table is ridiculously easy compared to his. The only other person higher than both of you is Ekkes who is a diehard system user and instructor.

The fact is that on average system users are more accurate. Period. That is a provable fact.

So stop being so wishy-washy. You put up the test and system users are the best ones at it. Acknowledge it.

 

[Gerry Williams]

So where are the limitations?

No system accounts for swerve, squirt or throw - nobody ever made that claim. However, when you are on the shot line making the necessary adjustment is much easier.

If a person can use an "aiming system" effectively for every shot, then that system obviously has no limitations for that individual.

You are obviously a great shooter. I suspect you could perform well with any (or no) "aiming system," provided you have a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine and accurate and consistent visual alignment. In my view, these important fundamentals are really independent of any "aiming system" that might be used.

To me, the purpose for an "aiming system" is to determine the exact line of aim required to create the exact cut angle needed to send an object ball to the center of the pocket. I think most good players can judge the required line of aim for a shot "intuitively" or by "feel" (and take into account squirt, swerve, and throw, as appropriate). I suspect you (like most players who have put in countless hours practicing and playing) are very good at visualizing the required line of aim and don't need a prescribed "aiming system" to find it for you.

Regards,
Dave