Great stroke

[CJ Wiley]

.understanding how the wrist motion produces more acceleration

Randy and I may differ in opinion, however I'm sure he would be quit to tell you my techniques are very effective.

I don't advocate locking the wrist, I've said it appears mine is locked, but it's an optical illusion. My wrist motion is the main reason my stroke's one of the most accurate in the game (I also played tournament tennis while developing as a pool player)......understanding how the wrist motion produces more acceleration is one factor that can improve a players game DRAMATICALLY in just a few hours.

'The Game is the Teacher'

I am very serious. If you don't believe me, Randy G. is a close friend of yours, are you ever going to sit down with him and discuss what he teaches and why?

By the way, strange how you now claim it's all in the wrist, when you advocate locking the wrist in a forward position. And, once again, pool is pool, not hockey, not tennis, not golf, nor any other sport you want to claim it's similar too. There are very different requirements with pool, and if you can't even see that, then you better have that talk with Randy sooner than later.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's my feel and touch that wins matches.

Your insights are right on target. Don't listen to your friends, trust your instincts my friend.

Using your hand/fingers/wrist in your stoke is what gets the best feedback and therefore the most feel and touch.

At the end of the day it's my feel and touch that wins matches.

I look at it like sights on a rifle. your arm is your main and your wrist is fine tuning. I just had my wrist 100% fuse together. All my pool player friends try arguing with me that I don't need my wrist. You need a wrist to play touch/precision shots. And power/precision shots. This is a game of inches not feet!
I believe when people talk about feeling the shot. It comes from the wrist and the fingers. Not the arm and elbow...

 

[BeiberLvr]

It's irrelevant as it is all about cue speed which is determined by the back swing length.

It's also the speed in which the cue gets from Point A (end of back swing) to Point B (end of forward swing).

Which is why some players will employ a very long backswing on power shots, so the cue can pick up more speed from A to B. Of course, this doesn't mean a very long backswing is necessary as at some point in the forward motion (I believe right before contact), the cue will be moving at it's fastest and no longer accelerating.

 

[CJ Wiley]

For the most part a lengthy follow through has a negative influence

What about the masse' shot? Isn't it safe to say this is the MOST powerful shot and it has a very limited follow through?

The key is to maximize the acceleration in your stroke where it counts....at the cue ball. For the most part a lengthy follow through has a negative influence on the majority of shots (control wise), and is only recommended when trying to accentuate after contact spin. 'The Game is the Teacher'

It's also the speed in which the cue gets from Point A (end of back swing) to Point B (end of forward swing).

Which is why some players will employ a very long backswing on power shots, so the cue can pick up more speed from A to B. Of course, this doesn't mean a very long backswing is necessary as at some point in the forward motion (I believe right before contact), the cue will be moving at it's fastest and no longer accelerating.

 

[Neil]

That's just silly. Let's see how far you can draw the ball on a legal hit with the cue ball 1 inch from the object ball. Then do the same shot with enough room to actually follow through the cue ball. If you think it doesn't affect your stroke - then you are in a very small minority of players that think this.

That's a perfect example of explaining why the follow through DOES MATTER.

You are totally missing the point. I don't know how to explain it any simpler. Your test is flawed, and if you can't even see that, then I give up. Go ahead and think what you want to.It only hinders your game, not mine.

http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett2.htm Scroll down to "Close to your work". I guess Bob saying the same thing is nonsense too.

 

[Neil]

Randy and I may differ in opinion, however I'm sure he would be quit to tell you my techniques are very effective.

I don't advocate locking the wrist, I've said it appears mine is locked, but it's an optical illusion. My wrist motion is the main reason my stroke's one of the most accurate in the game (I also played tournament tennis while developing as a pool player)......understanding how the wrist motion produces more acceleration is one factor that can improve a players game DRAMATICALLY in just a few hours.

'The Game is the Teacher'

I know you think that, as do many. Here's a little test for you to show you just how much more acceleration you get with your wrist- take any small object. Put it in your hand. Now, place your arm against a table or something so you have zero arm movement. Now, just using your wrist and fingers, throw the object as far as you can. Or, just go to a pool table, set up any shot, have someone keep your arm from moving at all, just using your wrist and fingers, how much acceleration to you have on the cb? I rest my case.

 

[Neil]

What about the masse' shot? Isn't it safe to say this is the MOST powerful shot and it has a very limited follow through?

The key is to maximize the acceleration in your stroke where it counts....at the cue ball. For the most part a lengthy follow through has a negative influence on the majority of shots (control wise), and is only recommended when trying to accentuate after contact spin. 'The Game is the Teacher'

You were doing great, then you had to go and say "accentuate after contact spin" Mind explaining how you get more spin with nothing touching the cb?

 

[BasementDweller]

You are totally missing the point. I don't know how to explain it any simpler. Your test is flawed, and if you can't even see that, then I give up. Go ahead and think what you want to.It only hinders your game, not mine.

http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett2.htm Scroll down to "Close to your work". I guess Bob saying the same thing is nonsense too.

I'm totally missing the point huh???

Here's a quote from the article you referenced:

If you perfect this technique, you should be able to easily drive the object ball two table lengths with just a chalk-width between the object ball and cue ball.

So do you think the average player would only be able to drive the object ball 2 table lengths using a normal follow through?

The technique Mr. Jewett describes in the article is a good one and it's one that I personally have used on these types of shots. This article is NOT proof that a short follow through stroke is as powerful as a stroke with a normal follow through, nor was that the point of the article.

 

[BasementDweller]

Set up an easy cut to the left. Now shoot it with right spin (say 3 o'clock on the CB). It might help to use a training ball for this exercise. Do this about 5 times or so, and mark where the CB ends up.

Now do it again, same location and same speed, but this time employ an extended follow through to the shot. As long as you hit the same spot on the CB and at the same speed, you will end up with the exact same results.

You're welcome to disagree with this without even trying it, but then you'd just be disagreeing with physics.

Who said anything about an "Extended" follow through?

I just think there is an optimal follow through for each player. If your follow through is too short you limit your cue action - like it Neal's example. If it's too long....well I guess you're just showing off and introducing an unnecessary level of complexity into your stroke.

I like keeping it simple. I think the totality of the stroke is important. The SPF type instructors just think your cueing action is important up until the point where you hit the cue ball.

 

[dr_dave]

Who said anything about an "Extended" follow through?

I just think there is an optimal follow through for each player. If your follow through is too short you limit your cue action - like it Neal's example. If it's too long....well I guess you're just showing off and introducing an unnecessary level of complexity into your stroke.

I like keeping it simple. I think the totality of the stroke is important. The SPF type instructors just think your cueing action is important up until the point where you hit the cue ball.

The follow-through strictly has no influence on the cue ball because the cue ball is gone before the follow through takes place. What the grip and stroke does during cue tip contact is also unimportant because the tip is in contact with the cue ball for only a very short amount of time (approximately 0.001 seconds). However, the follow-through is usually a good indicator of the quality and nature of the stroke into the ball, which does matter quite a bit. For example, if the follow-through is very short, it could indicate a decelerating or over-constrained stroke into the ball, which can adversely affect speed control. Also, if the follow-through involves tip lift (due to elbow drop) or steer (due to a flying "chicken-wing" elbow), these motions might be starting before tip contact, during the stroke into the ball, and this could definitely affect cue-tip-contact-point and aiming accuracy. To summarize, the follow through is not the "cause" of a good stroke, but it is often a strong indicator of a good stroke into the ball.

For much more info on this topic, see:

follow through resource page
stroke acceleration resource page
stroke "type" and "quality" resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Neil]

I'm totally missing the point huh???

Here's a quote from the article you referenced:



So do you think the average player would only be able to drive the object ball 2 table lengths using a normal follow through?

The technique Mr. Jewett describes in the article is a good one and it's one that I personally have used on these types of shots. This article is NOT proof that a short follow through stroke is as powerful as a stroke with a normal follow through, nor was that the point of the article.

Chris, you are so busy trying to pick hairs, that you can't even see the obvious. The fact that you can draw at all is proof that you don't need any follow through. No, a human can't draw as far simply because we can't generate the required speed necessary for max draw and still have enough time to get the cue back out of the way. But, as Bob stated, you can still get table length draw with practice. If you need more than that, you can masse' draw it. That has less than two and a quarter inches of follow through.

You are sounding like I am advocating not using any follow through. I have never stated that. I am saying, that follow through is just a by product of a good stroke. It in and of itself does nothing to the cb.

 

[DTL]

....................

 

[CJ Wiley]

this requires "Beginning with the end in mind" and the "end" is the follow through.

So you're saying I don't use my follow through to control the cue ball after contact?

I think you guys are so caught up in being literal that you miss the forrest for the trees so to speak (please don't take that literally!).

If anything's absurd it's someone thinking they know what I do to control the cue ball better than I do. With all due respect my cue ball control is pretty good and I certainly can change the cue ball's path by regulating my follow through. Concentrating on creating a certain follow through effects things at contact that I have no chance of controlling any other way.

In other words NO ONE can control exactly what's happening at "TIP/CUE BALL" contact unless they have a system to do so.....this requires "Beginning with the end in mind" and the "end" is the follow through.

This is how I do it (and I can certainly demonstrate it on the pool table) and is meant ONLY for those players that "have eyes that can see" what I'm communicating....for the rest of you please carry on playing like you play - no harm, no foul. 'The Game is the Teacher'

With all due respect, the above in red is absurd.

What "controls" (your words) the spin is what happens on the final forward stroke up until tip contact (0.001 sec).................(speed, angle of cue, location of hit on the CB).

Wrist action can give the cue a little added speed just before contact..........can also lower or raise the tip a bit (depending on the type of wrist action) which will give one some extra "juice" on the CB.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Using this specific technique I can do amazing things with the cue ball

That's right, Dr. Dave.....and I do the things highlighted intentionally by concentrating on creating a certain follow through. Using this specific technique I can do amazing things with the cue ball just by altering things like distance, angle, and even speed after cue ball contact. Even on "jump shots" I use the follow through to determine what the cue ball will do after jumping a ball AND THEN contacting the object ball...go figure.:thumbup:

I may have let out another "secret" by the reaction of some.....I have an entire section of my training and lesson sessions devoted to teaching players how to accomplish this technique.....it's powerful, that's for sure - when done correctly that is. 'The Game is the Teacher'

The follow-through strictly has no influence on the cue ball because the cue ball is gone before the follow through takes place. What the grip and stroke does during cue tip contact is also unimportant because the tip is in contact with the cue ball for only a very short amount of time (approximately 0.001 seconds). However, the follow-through is usually a good indicator of the quality and nature of the stroke into the ball, which does matter quite a bit. For example, if the follow-through is very short, it could indicate a decelerating or over-constrained stroke into the ball, which can adversely affect speed control. Also, if the follow-through involves tip lift (due to elbow drop) or steer (due to a flying "chicken-wing" elbow), these motions might be starting before tip contact, during the stroke into the ball, and this could definitely affect cue-tip-contact-point and aiming accuracy. To summarize, the follow through is not the "cause" of a good stroke, but it is often and strong indicator of a good stroke into the ball.

For much more info on this topic, see:

follow through resource page
stroke acceleration resource page
stroke "type" and "quality" resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[BeiberLvr]

So you're saying I don't use my follow through to control the cue ball after contact?

I think you guys are so caught up in being literal that you miss the forrest for the trees so to speak (please don't take that literally!).

If anything's absurd it's someone thinking they know what I do to control the cue ball better than I do. With all due respect my cue ball control is pretty good and I certainly can change the cue ball's path by regulating my follow through. Concentrating on creating a certain follow through effects things at contact that I have no chance of controlling any other way.

In other words NO ONE can control exactly what's happening at "TIP/CUE BALL" contact unless they have a system to do so.....this requires "Beginning with the end in mind" and the "end" is the follow through.

This is how I do it (and I can certainly demonstrate it on the pool table) and is meant ONLY for those players that "have eyes that can see" what I'm communicating....for the rest of you please carry on playing like you play - no harm, no foul. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Your CB control was/might still be great. I'll give you that much.

But it's not because of the reason(s) you think.

That's the beauty of this game though. Understanding the "why" isn't necessary to play at a high level, as you have so often demonstrated.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Here's some examples on video and yes, they're FREE of CHARGE!

Now you're just being silly Karen.

I can easily demonstrate anything I put in writing on a daily basis giving lessons AND playing.....it's easy to argue with words on a computer screen, but it's impossible to argue with me demonstrating these techniques LIVE on a pool table.

Here's some examples on video and yes, they're FREE of CHARGE!

Your CB control was/might still be great. I'll give you that much.

But it's not because of the reason(s) you think.

That's the beauty of this game though. Understanding the "why" isn't necessary to play at a high level, as you have so often demonstrated.

 

[DTL]

.....................

 

[itsfroze]

Your CB control was/might still be great. I'll give you that much.

But it's not because of the reason(s) you think.

That's the beauty of this game though. Understanding the "why" isn't necessary to play at a high level, as you have so often demonstrated.

That's the comedy in this game, you telling C.J. what he does and doesn't understand, and you've only been playing ten years, priceless !

 

[Neil]

That's right, Dr. Dave.....and I do the things highlighted intentionally by concentrating on creating a certain follow through. Using this specific technique I can do amazing things with the cue ball just by altering things like distance, angle, and even speed after cue ball contact. Even on "jump shots" I use the follow through to determine what the cue ball will do after jumping a ball AND THEN contacting the object ball...go figure.:thumbup:

I may have let out another "secret" by the reaction of some.....I have an entire section of my training and lesson sessions devoted to teaching players how to accomplish this technique.....it's powerful, that's for sure - when done correctly that is. 'The Game is the Teacher'

It's no secret. It's just backwards thinking. No different than saying that the cart is pushing the horse. Your follow through isn't affecting anything. What you do before contact to get your follow through to go a certain distance or place or angle is what matters.

 

[jtaylor996]

Everyone is just talking past each other here...

Dave: cause/effect
CJ: technique/results

They are not in conflict with each other, although some terminology may conflict.

But when it comes down to it, "good stroke" is pretty subjective, and arguments on this subject may never end.