Great stroke

[Slasher]

Consistent accuracy on the cue ball is paramount to getting the expected reaction.
As an experiment forget about pocketing accuracy for a moment and play a few shots with varying amounts of english focusing only on the cue ball, did you get more reaction than usual?
If you did you need to work on the timing of your eye patterns to ensure you are indeed hitting the cue ball where you intended.

 

[Neil]

Neil said:


To which Andrew replied:


Nobody really disagrees with what Neil said. It's just the implications of what it means. This is going to sound ridiculously obvious but I think some people are missing this -- we are NOT the cue ball. We are human beings. We do not get to feel what the cue ball feels. We have to rely on our bodies to take in the sensual information that is all around us. This is all the more reason why the follow through is important. It is important in every sport, apparently except for pool some would say. I think the problem is their resistance to acknowledge the importance of the follow through is really tied to their teaching of the preeminence of the pendulum stroke.

I just don't think those two teachings need to be mutually exclusive. You can shoot with a pendulum stroke and still view the follow through as an important part of the cueing process.

Let me put it this way- the follow through does absolutely nothing for the actual shot. The follow through does a lot for your ability to deliver the cue to where it needs to be at the speed it needs to be. .001 second after contact, you no longer can affect what happens with the shot. All you can have an effect on is what you do before contact. That means a proper stroke will automatically have a follow through. A robot would not need any follow through at all. As humans, we do need one. Understand the difference now? The follow through doesn't affect the shot, it is the result of good mechanics.

 

[Neil]

I wish you live near by Wash DC I would show you. Until then we both are right. Do one test for me aim on 100% straight shot with center cb, now close your eyes pivot cue and shoot, if bridge at pivot you will not miss, if you bridge shorter you will over cut . Make sure to use top right or left, fast speed to avoid cb sliding and swerve

I don't understand your point here. Except to point out that most don't know how to use BHE correctly. Just pivoting your cue is not proper BHE. Proper BHE requires one to find the correct pivot length for their cue, and then not alter that length.

 

[Neil]

So if someone stood near you and prematurely stopped your follow through would that be a bad thing or not? If they stopped it 1 inch after you hit the cue ball what would happen? Would this negatively effect your stroke?

Of course it would.

If a player does this to themselves it can have the same effect. So yes, the follow through is a byproduct of a proper stroking action just as you said. But it is certainly a NECESSARY byproduct -- just as you said.


***Edit***

I change my mind, the follow through is not a byproduct of the stroke it is an integral part of it. The stroke does not end when the stick hits the cue ball, it continues on until reaching its final resting point.

You are missing the point. It would only bother me if I anticipated them stopping my arm and I changed something in delivery because of that. As long as my delivery was the same, it would have no effect on the shot.

If I have a cb very close to the ob. I want to follow table length on the shot. I obviously can't have any follow through or I would foul on the shot with a double hit. Yet, I can do it legally. Know how I can do that? Because I purposely limit my follow through without it affecting my stroke. How can I do that? By choking up on the cue right to the finish point with the tip at the cb. Now, when I stroke it, the cue can't go any farther than my finish point, which is right at the cb. Yet, I get the exact same action I would as if I had a foot between the cb and ob and followed through on the shot.

I agree that the stroke ends when the cue reaches it's final resting point. But, as far as the cb is concerned, the stroke started at contact of the cb, and ended .001-.002 seconds later. That tiny amount of time is all that matters to the actual hit, and results in what will happen. Everything else is just a product of what we must do to hit the cb exactly where, at what angle relative to the table, and at what speed that we want to.

 

[JohnnyP]

Top left or top right WILL make the cueball swerve.

 

[CJ Wiley]

pool is not the exception, it's the sample example.

You can't be serious.....the wrists/hands are the most important factor of generating acceleration in any sport. Pool players that don't understand how to utilize their wrists are destined to perform under their true potential and never "real eyes" why.

Look at golfers, tennis players, baseball pitchers, hockey players, basket ball players, etc....they are ALL helpless without their wrists/hands generating speed in their individual "stokes"......pool is not the exception, it's the sample example. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Oh, it's not, huh? Yes, you can use your wrist, but it is totally unnecessary to do so. It is NOT, and I repeat, NOT essential to a good stroke. It is a choice. It actually is totally unnecessary to employ the wrist. If you like to do things the hard way, have at it. But don't expect people that know better to buy that nonsense.

 

[BasementDweller]

Let me put it this way- the follow through does absolutely nothing for the actual shot. The follow through does a lot for your ability to deliver the cue to where it needs to be at the speed it needs to be. .001 second after contact, you no longer can affect what happens with the shot. All you can have an effect on is what you do before contact. That means a proper stroke will automatically have a follow through. A robot would not need any follow through at all. As humans, we do need one. Understand the difference now? The follow through doesn't affect the shot, it is the result of good mechanics.

I guess we just disagree on this. You could use your logic for every known sport that includes a ball and say that the follow through does absolutely nothing for the actual shot, stroke, throw, pass, etc. No serious instructor in any other sport takes this view that I'm aware of.

I actually think this is boiling down to semantics. The SPF instructor types like to talk about the finish position as opposed to talking about the follow through, but in all reality they are really one and the same. The SPF guys preach having a solid, repeatable, finish position. Why??? If the cue ball is gone at the moment of impact who cares right? So you care about the “finish position” but not the follow through, right?

It appears someone came up with an idea that went against the status quo at one point and everybody said "Yeah put that in the syllabus!" Now they are stuck with it even if it doesn't make much sense.

 

[BasementDweller]

You are missing the point. It would only bother me if I anticipated them stopping my arm and I changed something in delivery because of that. As long as my delivery was the same, it would have no effect on the shot.

If I have a cb very close to the ob. I want to follow table length on the shot. I obviously can't have any follow through or I would foul on the shot with a double hit. Yet, I can do it legally. Know how I can do that? Because I purposely limit my follow through without it affecting my stroke. How can I do that? By choking up on the cue right to the finish point with the tip at the cb. Now, when I stroke it, the cue can't go any farther than my finish point, which is right at the cb. Yet, I get the exact same action I would as if I had a foot between the cb and ob and followed through on the shot.
I agree that the stroke ends when the cue reaches it's final resting point. But, as far as the cb is concerned, the stroke started at contact of the cb, and ended .001-.002 seconds later. That tiny amount of time is all that matters to the actual hit, and results in what will happen. Everything else is just a product of what we must do to hit the cb exactly where, at what angle relative to the table, and at what speed that we want to.

That's just silly. Let's see how far you can draw the ball on a legal hit with the cue ball 1 inch from the object ball. Then do the same shot with enough room to actually follow through the cue ball. If you think it doesn't affect your stroke - then you are in a very small minority of players that think this.

That's a perfect example of explaining why the follow through DOES MATTER.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The ideal stroke creates a "mirror reaction" between the follow through and the......

The follow though is essential to control the "after contact spin" and reaction of the cue ball. It's not as evident in pool, but in golf you can see that the follow though DIRECTLY effects the ball's trajectory and reaction off the club head (it's the same in pool only less visible). In golf if you want to hit a low shot you follow through low, a high shot on the contrary is done using a high follow through. A left to right shot has a left to right follow though and a right to left shot has a right to left follow through.

I use the follow through to control what happens to the cue ball after contact. If I want to exaggerate the after contact spin I will lengthen my follow through and and if I want to limit it I shorten my follow through. The ideal stroke creates a "mirror reaction" between the follow through and the after contact reaction of the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I guess we just disagree on this. You could use your logic for every known sport that includes a ball and say that the follow through does absolutely nothing for the actual shot, stroke, throw, pass, etc. No serious instructor in any other sport takes this view that I'm aware of.

I actually think this is boiling down to semantics. The SPF instructor types like to talk about the finish position as opposed to talking about the follow through, but in all reality they are really one and the same. The SPF guys preach having a solid, repeatable, finish position. Why??? If the cue ball is gone at the moment of impact who cares right? So you care about the “finish position” but not the follow through, right?

It appears someone came up with an idea that went against the status quo at one point and everybody said "Yeah put that in the syllabus!" Now they are stuck with it even if it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Slasher]

The follow through enables you to keep the cue accelerating, decel requires tension. Relaxed muscles allow us to generate more speed and keep the cue on it's intended path and this achieves better accuracy on the cue ball, this is why you often get a better reaction with the loose grip.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I guess we just disagree on this. You could use your logic for every known sport that includes a ball and say that the follow through does absolutely nothing for the actual shot, stroke, throw, pass, etc. No serious instructor in any other sport takes this view that I'm aware of.

I actually think this is boiling down to semantics. The SPF instructor types like to talk about the finish position as opposed to talking about the follow through, but in all reality they are really one and the same. The SPF guys preach having a solid, repeatable, finish position. Why??? If the cue ball is gone at the moment of impact who cares right? So you care about the “finish position” but not the follow through, right?

It appears someone came up with an idea that went against the status quo at one point and everybody said "Yeah put that in the syllabus!" Now they are stuck with it even if it doesn't make much sense.

Set up an easy cut to the left. Now shoot it with right spin (say 3 o'clock on the CB). It might help to use a training ball for this exercise. Do this about 5 times or so, and mark where the CB ends up.

Now do it again, same location and same speed, but this time employ an extended follow through to the shot. As long as you hit the same spot on the CB and at the same speed, you will end up with the exact same results.

You're welcome to disagree with this without even trying it, but then you'd just be disagreeing with physics.

 

[Neil]

You can't be serious.....the wrists/hands are the most important factor of generating acceleration in any sport. Pool players that don't understand how to utilize their wrists are destined to perform under their true potential and never "real eyes" why.

Look at golfers, tennis players, baseball pitchers, hockey players, basket ball players, etc....they are ALL helpless without their wrists/hands generating speed in their individual "stokes"......pool is not the exception, it's the sample example. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I am very serious. If you don't believe me, Randy G. is a close friend of yours, are you ever going to sit down with him and discuss what he teaches and why?

By the way, strange how you now claim it's all in the wrist, when you advocate locking the wrist in a forward position. And, once again, pool is pool, not hockey, not tennis, not golf, nor any other sport you want to claim it's similar too. There are very different requirements with pool, and if you can't even see that, then you better have that talk with Randy sooner than later.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

IMHO Follow through is a result of acceleration through the hit of the cueball. Best caused by relaxed muscles allowing for a smooth foward motion and better accuracy of the hit on the cueball.

The follow through enables you to keep the cue accelerating, decel requires tension. Relaxed muscles allow us to generate more speed and keep the cue on it's intended path and this achieves better accuracy on the cue ball, this is why you often get a better reaction with the loose grip.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Is a Masse a legal hit?

How much follow through on that stroke do you get?

That's just silly. Let's see how far you can draw the ball on a legal hit with the cue ball 1 inch from the object ball. Then do the same shot with enough room to actually follow through the cue ball. If you think it doesn't affect your stroke - then you are in a very small minority of players that think this.

That's a perfect example of explaining why the follow through DOES MATTER.

 

[naji]

I don't understand your point here. Except to point out that most don't know how to use BHE correctly. Just pivoting your cue is not proper BHE. Proper BHE requires one to find the correct pivot length for their cue, and then not alter that length.

True, if shorter than BHE you adjust aim, like near rail cb or on top of ob. But the point is at pivot there will be no cb squirt, unlike parallel to line of aim where max squirt

 

[sr 9ball]

You can't be serious.....the wrists/hands are the most important factor of generating acceleration in any sport. Pool players that don't understand how to utilize their wrists are destined to perform under their true potential and never "real eyes" why.

Look at golfers, tennis players, baseball pitchers, hockey players, basket ball players, etc....they are ALL helpless without their wrists/hands generating speed in their individual "stokes"......pool is not the exception, it's the sample example. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I look at it like sights on a rifle. your arm is your main and your wrist is fine tuning. I just had my wrist 100% fuse together. All my pool player friends try arguing with me that I don't need my wrist. You need a wrist to play touch/precision shots. And power/precision shots. This is a game of inches not feet!
I believe when people talk about feeling the shot. It comes from the wrist and the fingers. Not the arm and elbow...

 

[naji]

I look at it like sights on a rifle. your arm is your main and your wrist is fine tuning. I just had my wrist 100% fuse together. All my pool player friends try arguing with me that I don't need my wrist. You need a wrist to play touch/precision shots. And power/precision shots. This is a game of inches not feet!
I believe when people talk about feeling the shot. It comes from the wrist and the fingers. Not the arm and elbow...

Without the Wrist it is hard to make the cue weight work efficiently, for feel, but the majority top players do not use wrist, look at Ronnie O's his hand almost rigid and it has to be for accuracy, the wrist add the risk of cue not delivered as intended, more wiggly parts

 

[Slasher]

That's just silly. Let's see how far you can draw the ball on a legal hit with the cue ball 1 inch from the object ball. Then do the same shot with enough room to actually follow through the cue ball. If you think it doesn't affect your stroke - then you are in a very small minority of players that think this.

That's a perfect example of explaining why the follow through DOES MATTER.

It's irrelevant as it is all about cue speed which is determined by the back swing length.

 

[Neil]

True, if shorter than BHE you adjust aim, like near rail cb or on top of ob. But the point is at pivot there will be no cb squirt, unlike parallel to line of aim where max squirt

No, there is squirt. It's just that when using the correct pivot point on your cue, the squirt is now on the shot line instead of off it. There appears to be no effective squirt, but it is still there. You can't defy the law of physics just because you angled your cue.

 

[naji]

No, there is squirt. It's just that when using the correct pivot point on your cue, the squirt is now on the shot line instead of off it. There appears to be no effective squirt, but it is still there. You can't defy the law of physics just because you angled your cue.

Now we are on same page. The resultant forces and direction on cb steer it straight at pivot point. You the man. So the aim is like you are not using English when at pivot point. Unlike parallel English , where you always have to offset aim