Great stroke

[CJ Wiley]

when I was growing up the top notch players planned on dying with their "secrets"

Yes, techniques like this have to be shown in a real life demonstration - it's just too much to wrap your mind around if you've never had this type of exposure.

I guess it's time for a new DVD "Defying the World of Physics on a Pool Table".....or maybe "Houdini was a Short Stop".....hmmm....take a deep breath, I'm only joking. :groucho:

The fact of the matter is there's a lot of really cool techniques that haven't quite made it to the main stream yet........imagine 17 months ago there was only a handful of champions that even knew 'Touch of Inside' existed.....it's cool to see pool starting to evolve ....when I was growing up the top notch players planned on dying with their "secrets". 'The Game is the Teacher'

If you start at point A (the end of your last backstroke) and image yourself ending at point C (the end of your intended follow threw) then point B (cue tip, cue ball, contact point) will take care of it's self.

Funny thing is I think you mean the same thing as C.J. does, you just aren't open minded enough to come at it from the same perspective he is,
so you're missing what he is saying.

I also think that C.J. understands exactly what you are saying, but the best way to actually apply what is being said is from his perspective, not yours.
I have to agree with him.

You can read a book about buoyancy, but it won't help you swim !

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Sign Post Ahead Reads 'The Twilight Zone'

You don't focus on the follow through's direction silly.

So you don't think I hit the cue ball accurately? I've offered you the 5/7 and the break on a 9' table several times and you know you can't win......and "I" can't hit the cue ball accurately......and you're the "self appointed" guardian of amateur pool players?

Wow, I see a sign post ahead....what does it say? No, it can't be........

You can play the way C.J. describes. But, like he said he can't do, you will never achieve the accuracy doing things backwards. If you are focusing on the follow through, and the direction it needs to go, you will most likely end up steering the cue. Which means, you will not accurately hit the cb. One of the main problems with all amateurs, and a lot of the pros, including, by his own words, C.J.

If you want to learn to hit the cb accurately, forget about the follow through, just let it happen, and focus on the delivery of the cue to the exact spot you want to hit on the cb.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"a professional will develop a system so they can not do it wrong".

Yes, trying to control the moment of impact between the tip and the cue ball is ludicrous.....this is why the champion players have such a huge advantage - we focus on systems that overcome apparent disadvantages and turn them into advantages.

Classic "ReFrames" is all it is. "The difference between the amateur and the professional is the amateur will practice until they "can" do it right and a professional will develop a system so they can not do it wrong".

And such is life......'The Game is the Teacher'

This is so mind boggling to me. I would really like to know who it was that first came out with this idea that the follow through is not important. Everybody, and I mean everybody in this thread understands that the cue tip only contacts the cue ball for minuscule amount of time. This is precisely why what CJ is saying is exactly right. You cannot control the exact moment of impact as easily as you can the beginning and ending position. This is why the follow through is so very vital.

For those that continue to push the idea of the insignificance of the follow through will you at last answer the question - why is the importance of the follow through stressed in ALL other sports by top instructors? What makes these sports so different?

Like I said earlier, in an attempt to make a cute little point about the contact time being so short you have essentially thrown out a fundamental principle that is taught in all other sports including snooker.

It's time to put this idea to bed which is exactly what I should be doing.

Have a good night everyone. Even those that disagree with me. I enjoy exchanging ideas and thoughts with all of you.

 

[Neil]

You don't focus on the follow through's direction silly.

So you don't think I hit the cue ball accurately? I've offered you the 5/7 and the break on a 9' table several times and you know you can't win......and "I" can't hit the cue ball accurately......and you're the "self appointed" guardian of amateur pool players?

Wow, I see a sign post ahead....what does it say? No, it can't be........

I'm going by what YOU said. YOU said it was too hard to hit the cb accurately, so you favor one side of it. Of course, you have only said it a few thousand times, so you might not remember it.

Here we go again with the "let's play" crap. Like that proves anything at all. It surely doesn't prove you know what you are talking about. You have proved that over and over. Oh, wait, is there where I know insert some stupid big picture that is meant to insult you but I really think it will go over your head? That's what you do when you don't have any real facts to support what you say.

 

[CJ Wiley]

How about the 5/7, Last Five and the Break?

It's not any more difficult to hit the inside accurately, it's simply taking one side of the cue ball "out of play". That's why golfers "fade" and "draw" the golf ball - to take one side of the fairway/green "out of play".....it's the same principle, only using the pocket.

How dare I offer to match up a pool game on a pool forum.....the nerve.

And by the way, offering games like this is not an insult, it's what players do....I've been around gambling and pool rooms most of my life....no one has ever said I insulted them by offering them a "fair" game. "My Game will be your Teacher'

I'm going by what YOU said. YOU said it was too hard to hit the cb accurately, so you favor one side of it. Of course, you have only said it a few thousand times, so you might not remember it.

Here we go again with the "let's play" crap. Like that proves anything at all. It surely doesn't prove you know what you are talking about. You have proved that over and over. Oh, wait, is there where I know insert some stupid big picture that is meant to insult you but I really think it will go over your head? That's what you do when you don't have any real facts to support what you say.

 

[Neil]

It's not any more difficult to hit the inside accurately, it's simply taking one side of the cue ball "out of play". That's why golfers "fade" and "draw" the golf ball - to take one side of the fairway/green "out of play".....it's the same principle, only using the pocket.

How dare I offer to match up a pool game on a pool forum.....the nerve.

And by the way, offering games like this is not an insult, it's what players do....I've been around gambling and pool rooms most of my life....no one has ever said I insulted them by offering them a "fair" game. "My Game will be your Teacher'

Offering a game is nothing more than desperation. It doesn't prove your point one iota. Just understand that every time you scoff at what I have been saying, you are also scoffing at almost all the instructors in this country.

 

[naji]

Agree, straight back and straight through = good. But try telling that to Nick Varner, lol........on paper his practice strokes look like a 2 year old crayon drawing, lol. It's what he does on the final forward stroke up until tip contact that counts.

Thanks DTL, i like the way you saying things. SVB has a nice trick to his stroke that ensures piston , Efren also has good trick for pendulum stroke, Ronnie O' uses his chin and chest religiously for 100% guided straight snooker on every shot.
One that still puzzling me and confusing me is Busty, i am welling to bet he aims to where his stroke takes him, of the pocket, because his stroke seem off yet he makes balls, or using lots of TOI!!.

 

[Mikjary]

Thanks for the insight, CJ. I understand the angle of attack influences the cue ball at the moment of impact. I've posted about this many times before and hoped for some discussion about it.

We all understand the moment of impact is fractions of a second, so can we get past this great tidbit of info and get back to playing the game? Understanding the physics and limiting the game to, "it doesn't matter what you do when you hit the cue ball" is counter productive.

I'd like to hear more about developing the follow through by starting at the beginning of the stroke...even if you don't know what the hell you're talking about!

Best,
Mike

 

[BeiberLvr]

I'd like to hear more about developing the follow through by starting at the beginning of the stroke...even if you don't know what the hell you're talking about!

Best,
Mike

Play in the way you feel makes you play your best, but also think about this for a second in regards to a good SPF/fixed elbow stroke.

First of all, I think a lot of people think a fixed elbow stroke means there is no follow through. That players using this stroke are just jabbing at the CB. When I shoot a shot (at any speed), and don't drop my elbow, my tip can finish anywhere from 2"-4" past the CB. Of course, I don't focus on the end of the stroke. Instead, I just let it happen naturally, and the stroke ends as soon as my forearm meets my bicep.

Doing this allows me to focus on the only two things that really matter in getting the desired results

1. Hitting the CB accurately

2. Selecting the right speed to get from the end of my backswing to the point where my forearm meets my bicep (end of stroke)

 

[dr_dave]

The follow-through strictly has no influence on the cue ball because the cue ball is gone before the follow through takes place. What the grip and stroke does during cue tip contact is also unimportant because the tip is in contact with the cue ball for only a very short amount of time (approximately 0.001 seconds). However, the follow-through is usually a good indicator of the quality and nature of the stroke into the ball, which does matter quite a bit. For example, if the follow-through is very short, it could indicate a decelerating or over-constrained stroke into the ball, which can adversely affect speed control. Also, if the follow-through involves tip lift (due to elbow drop) or steer (due to a flying "chicken-wing" elbow), these motions might be starting before tip contact, during the stroke into the ball, and this could definitely affect cue-tip-contact-point and aiming accuracy. To summarize, the follow through is not the "cause" of a good stroke, but it is often a strong indicator of a good stroke into the ball.

For much more info on this topic, see:

follow through resource page
stroke acceleration resource page
stroke "type" and "quality" resource page

That's right, Dr. Dave.....and I do the things highlighted intentionally by concentrating on creating a certain follow through. Using this specific technique I can do amazing things with the cue ball just by altering things like distance, angle, and even speed after cue ball contact. Even on "jump shots" I use the follow through to determine what the cue ball will do after jumping a ball AND THEN contacting the object ball...go figure.:thumbup:

CJ,

I agree with you that thinking about different parts of the stroke like the follow through can help achieve the desired stroke into the ball. The follow through has no direct affect on a shot (because the CB is already gone), but by focusing on or visualizing a certain type of follow through, this might help you create the necessary stroke into the ball. This might not be the best advice for all people, but it obviously works for you, and it might help some people who have poor strokes into the CB.

When some people focus on the follow through, it causes them to exaggerate the follow through and unnaturally force the shot, and this is often accompanied by elbow drop which sometimes occurs before CB contact and often also inlvolves "chicken wing" elbow swing out. For more info, see the elbow drop resource page (which summarizes both advantages and disadvantages of dropping the elbow to exaggerate the follow through).

I like to explain things in ways that makes sense based on physics, but I also realize that many people don't need or want to know what is actually going on with a shot as long as it works. There's nothing wrong with that, because all that really matters at the table is consistency and accuracy.

Here are some classic examples where people sometimes have "physically incorrect" thinking but get the desired results anyway:

1.) "On a break shot, aim and hit the CB below center to squat the rock." To park the CB in the center of the table on a power break shot, the tip must actually hit the CB slightly above center; although, with elbow drop common with a power break, one must aim below center so the tip will end up hitting slightly above center (see BU break advice video).

2.) "To get good draw action on a straight shot, you need to elevate the cue." This is completely wrong, but it might help some people get more draw. One reason is that some people don't aim low enough on the CB, or they drop their elbow during the stroke into the ball. By elevating, they might be getting a lower effective tip position due to the downward angle of the cue (see cue elevation tip offset illustration), and the elevated stroke might change the timing of their elbow drop. For more info, see the cue elevation effects resource page.

3.) "The type of stroke directly affects the action of a shot." In reality, all the CB "cares" about is the hit (cue speed, tip contact point, and the direction of the cue at contact with the CB). For more info, see the stroke "type" and "quality" resource page.

BTW, I didn't meant to imply by these examples that your "follow through logic" is incorrect. The numerous disagreements in this thread just reminded me of them.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

A straight, accelerating stroke at the desired tip contact point will naturally end in a good (I guess you can call it that) follow through.....has to unless you suddenly try to stop it or veer right or left after contact.
...

Maybe Dr. D can chime in and tell me if anything I've said in this thread is incorrect or misleading. Nice debate!

I didn't go back and check everything you wrote in this thread, but this certainly sounds valid.

Regards,
Dave

 

[DTL]

"The Cue Ball is the Primary Target"

.........................

 

[Slasher]

I lied.......I'm back, lol. One more post (maybe).

Above quote is yours, CJ. You've said it many times in many different threads........when you were promoting some other "secret". Below is just one example:

"Remember, the cue ball is the primary target and no one can hit it exactly pure every time for hours at a time......and that does mean nobody."

I guess now it's time to sell another "secret" and we'll all need to focus on something else.

The secret is there are no secrets, the MO continues
Man hit ball with stick, ball go here and other ball go there.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Man, some of you people can really make simple stuff sound complicated.

Cue has to move swiftly and accurately for it to be a great stroke.

Everything else derives very directly from the bolded statement.

The swiftness has to be present during contact. However much follow-through you need to make sure you're moving the cue as swiftly as possible at contact is the amount you need to have a great stroke.

Tightness is an enemy of swiftness. That's why great strokes look more effortless. All the muscles except the ones that need to generate speed are loose.

Steering or poor mechanics are the enemy of accuracy. You can't control steering or compensate for poor mechanics at the speed of a great stroke. Therefore you have to sacrifice speed or experience poor accuracy or both.

That's ALL of it. Show me another factor in having a great stroke, and I'll show you something that's either a way of looking at the above concepts in a more complicated way, or factually incorrect.

-Andrew

 

[dr_dave]

Man, some of you people can really make simple stuff sound complicated.

Cue has to move swiftly and accurately for it to be a great stroke.

Everything else derives very directly from the bolded statement.

The swiftness has to be present during contact. However much follow-through you need to make sure you're moving the cue as swiftly as possible at contact is the amount you need to have a great stroke.

Tightness is an enemy of swiftness. That's why great strokes look more effortless. All the muscles except the ones that need to generate speed are loose.

Steering or poor mechanics are the enemy of accuracy. You can't control steering or compensate for poor mechanics at the speed of a great stroke. Therefore you have to sacrifice speed or experience poor accuracy or both.

That's ALL of it. Show me another factor in having a great stroke, and I'll show you something that's either a way of looking at the above concepts in a more complicated way, or factually incorrect.

-Andrew

Excellent summary!

Well stated,
Dave

 

[sfleinen]

Man, some of you people can really make simple stuff sound complicated.

Cue has to move swiftly and accurately for it to be a great stroke.

Everything else derives very directly from the bolded statement.

The swiftness has to be present during contact. However much follow-through you need to make sure you're moving the cue as swiftly as possible at contact is the amount you need to have a great stroke.

Tightness is an enemy of swiftness. That's why great strokes look more effortless. All the muscles except the ones that need to generate speed are loose.

Steering or poor mechanics are the enemy of accuracy. You can't control steering or compensate for poor mechanics at the speed of a great stroke. Therefore you have to sacrifice speed or experience poor accuracy or both.

That's ALL of it. Show me another factor in having a great stroke, and I'll show you something that's either a way of looking at the above concepts in a more complicated way, or factually incorrect.

-Andrew

The problem, Andrew, is that what you write above doesn't sell. Pool players don't like to hear that there is no magic pill, and they actually have to work at a skill to actually have that skill.

So, I think you're onto something, and you may not know it:

[C]ue [H]as [T]o [M]ove [S]wiftly [A]nd [A]ccurately [F]or [I]t [T]o [B]e [A] [G]reat [S]troke

or CHTMSAA FIT BAGS for short. You should trademark the name "CHTMSAA FIT BAGS" and begin your own video series.

Andrew Mannings' CHTMSAA FIT BAGS system. It actually has a nice ring to it!


-Sean

 

[DTL]

.........................

 

[Slasher]

Here's some secrets:
- Learn good fundamentals.......stance, grip, bridge, etc. Stan Shuffett, Mark Wilson, Randy G, Scott Lee, and others can help with this. Nic Barrow (English Snooker Coach) has some good Youtube videos and most of his teachings carryover to pool.

- Master a good aiming technique.......many out there, lol.

- Learn how to stroke straight.........accelerate through the CB.

- Practice, Practice, Practice.

You won't sell many DVD's or boost your ego spreading this kind of info lol
Perhaps we need a "common sense" section on the forum

 

[Mikjary]

Play in the way you feel makes you play your best, but also think about this for a second in regards to a good SPF/fixed elbow stroke.

First of all, I think a lot of people think a fixed elbow stroke means there is no follow through. That players using this stroke are just jabbing at the CB. When I shoot a shot (at any speed), and don't drop my elbow, my tip can finish anywhere from 2"-4" past the CB. Of course, I don't focus on the end of the stroke. Instead, I just let it happen naturally, and the stroke ends as soon as my forearm meets my bicep.

Doing this allows me to focus on the only two things that really matter in getting the desired results

1. Hitting the CB accurately

2. Selecting the right speed to get from the end of my backswing to the point where my forearm meets my bicep (end of stroke)

I do and don't drop my elbow depending on the situation. I think we all think about the finish as we start our strokes, consciously or not. I feel that I'm smooth using any technique, but that's become a mental exercise at my level of play. My actual physical follow through is dependent on the stroke I use mentally.

Developing a method to connect all the dots in the shot process makes a lot of sense to me. This would help me keep focused through my entire stroke and not have me give in to steering or last second adjustments as often.

Best,
Mike

 

[BasementDweller]

The problem, Andrew, is that what you write above doesn't sell. Pool players don't like to hear that there is no magic pill, and they actually have to work at a skill to actually have that skill.

So, I think you're onto something, and you may not know it:

[C]ue [H]as [T]o [M]ove [S]wiftly [A]nd [A]ccurately [F]or [I]t [T]o [B]e [A] [G]reat [S]troke

or CHTMSAA FIT BAGS for short. You should trademark the name "CHTMSAA FIT BAGS" and begin your own video series.

Andrew Mannings' CHTMSAA FIT BAGS system. It actually has a nice ring to it!


-Sean

I've been looking for a good fit bag. How much???