Sorry, again, there is no difference. As long as the ball goes in the indicated pocket it makes no difference whatsoever. I would never play this way but I don't play in bars where people do, either, and haven't for about 40+ years.
lmao defense is a weakness.....
- Thread starter poolguppy
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Sorry, again, there is no difference. As long as the ball goes in the indicated pocket it makes no difference whatsoever. I would never play this way but I don't play in bars where people do, either, and haven't for about 40+ years.
Hiding from reality doesn't help much. Knowing how some think about such things is very educational and helps reduce stupid racism and bigotry, imho.
Hiding or ignoring or destroying such uncomfortable truths most likely means a repeating of those problems.
Jeff Livingston
It's a terrible way of playing. Especially in times where a ball is blocking part of the pocket, so what if it kisses? If you kiss a ball while it's going down that ball didn't make your shot for you, if u brush the long rail while cutting it down that's part of why it was desirable to take that shot, because the rail helps. Any real slop that comes from call pocket happens maybe once every several games if that. In a long race that one shot isn't going to change the outcome.
Sorry sir, but there IS a difference....and it's a HUGE one. It's just that lorider didn't explain it as well as he could have. Let me try:
In most bars in my area, this is how it goes:
Call pocket = If you designate which object ball is going into which pocket (for instance, by saying "4-ball, side pocket"...and it always is wise to point to WHICH side pocket), and you miss the 4-ball...it goes 4-rails around the table caroming off several balls and winds up falling into the called pocket....that shot is good and the shooter continues shooting.
Call shot = In the same scenario as above the shot would not have counted because you did not "call the shot" by designating that the 4-ball was going to go 4-rails and carom off of two balls on the way in. In "call shot" rules, you must call every detail of the object ball's path to the pocket (or sometimes, the cue balls path to the object ball). In other words...if you have an object ball near a pocket but close to the rail and you call that ball and pocket...and the object ball touches the rail or slightly caroms off of another ball, that shot does not count and the shooter's inning is over. You simply must detail in your description of your shot every bank, carom, touched rail, kicked rail (with cue ball), etc. If you do not plan on touching a rail or caroming off another ball, you simply call the shot like this (in the above scenario): "4-ball, side pocket, clean". If there was no other balls near that side pocket, you wouldn't necessarily need to say the word "clean" before shooting, but God forbid if you touch the point with the object ball on the way in, as in some bars even THAT is not considered "clean".
I hope this describes the 2 shots a little better. You can see that clearly, this would be playing under two very different sets of rules. That said...even the "called shot" rules vary from bar-to-bar. Some places it is okay to barely scrape the point of a pocket with the object ball when calling a "clean" shot....some will even let you make contact with the rail close to a corner pocket with the object ball before it goes in...others will not.
It is best to ask EXACTLY which rule you are using before taking a shot where any one of these scenarios should come up BEFORE you shoot, if you are playing "call shot" rules in a bar (or...anywhere else for that matter).
It will save a lot of headaches and arguments.
Maniac
The RULES say different. It's why I gave up playing in bars with people I don't know except for tournaments. The people I play in bars with play by the same rules. I won't play with people who make up their own rules and in bars that's how it's done. As I said in another post, I played in bars many, many years ago and never heard any thing like that. I've never been in a commercial room where any of the players played that way. It's nonsense, any way you look at it.
Hmm
I guess it works in a bar rule league, but anywhere else I would guess it would be Unsportsmanlike Conduct, and loss of game
I like the cut if your jibin that case though you can counter his game, simply put the Cueball behind the 8, and drive it out if the kictchen near a pocket and try and leave him with a bad angle somewhere. It's an illegal shot and you simply lose your turn and he plays where it lies. Next shot you are legal and open
I guess it works in a bar rule league, but anywhere else I would guess it would be Unsportsmanlike Conduct, and loss of game
Indeed. Also picking up the eight ball with your hand and relocating it as described in another post would be ruled a forfeit by 99.9% of tournament directors.
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Look, I don't mean to seem argumentative about this, if you guys want/have to play this way, so be it. I wouldn't, personally, but that's just me. Again, I've never seen a reason to change, even with your example. It just doesn't make sense and it's why I don't play casually in bars very often.
The thing I've never understood about bar rules is that even though they've never been written down formally anywhere these are the rules that so many average joes play. Sure there are variations, but simply the fact that we can say "bar rules" and everyone knows more or less what we're talking about is an indication of some uniformity. How did these rules spread while the written down rule sets remain esoteric to most people who have picked up a cue at some point? Oral tradition I suppose. Still a mystery to me.
where did you play mostly ? i played all over the southeast during the 70's and 80's. the rules were always the same everywhere i went. as i stated before in south fla there were variations such as last pocket and bank the 8 due to the latin influence.
i did notice during the 80's i started encountering some of the crap such as the tip of the pocket and you must hit the 8 with the influx of northerners coming into fla.
3 things always remained constant every where though.
1. no obvious defense. i did play a lot of 2 way shots though .:grin:
2. no bih.
3. no slop shots.... just calling your pocket with the premise of it don't matter how your ball gets in that pocket falls under the definition of a slop shot.
i hope number 3 defines the difference between call your pocket and call your shot a lot better for you.
it seems to me a regional thing. i explained my experience in my last post.
people seem to harp on the fact that there are variations every where.
well guess what guys....there are variations in leagues every where also. i am talking about national organizations have variances from region to region. ya'll ever heard of by laws ? they are not the same every where.
heck mark griffin even stated bcapl leagues can play by any rules they want to at the local level. i recall one poster on here stating his bcapl league plays by apa rules. and here ya'll are harping about bar rules not being uniform every where.
The reason call shot is not used by pros and gamblers is because it prevents arguments.
There are shots that will require a carom followed by a kick-combo that glances of two or three other balls and has to be hit very firm for shape. The potential for an argument is huge if you are playing call shot whereas call pocket leaves no doubt.
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There are shots that will require a carom followed by a kick-combo that glances of two or three other balls and has to be hit very firm for shape. The potential for an argument is huge if you are playing call shot whereas call pocket leaves no doubt.
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Sir, you are not coming across as argumentative at all. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with you, as I too do not play in bars that adhere to "bar rules" anymore.
The thing about bars (at least in my area) is that like pool halls, they have a group of "regular" patrons. Sometimes these bars put on a cheap Wednesday night tournament (just an example) and these "regulars" play in it....and under a particular set of rules that they have tweaked over a period of time. You go to another bar a few miles down the road....a different set of "regulars" have incorporated some different rules into their play (sometimes these rule changes are very minor, sometimes not).
So...this is why I harbor so much disdain for "bar rules" pool. It can vary from bar to bar to a point of frustration. It often seems like (as you have mentioned) they are making up the rules "on the fly". And....it invariably is the "call shot" rule that causes the most trouble.
Maniac
Are "Call Shot" rules on the ABC license exam?
To me, "Bar Rules" doesn't indicate a specific set of rules, it's more of a warning which says, "Don't be surprised if weirdness occurs." If there is a "Bar Rules" information underground, the newsletter masthead should read, "Alcohol and Pool Don't Mix."
Maybe Call Shot simply spreads by human nature, meaning that every time a more talented player (particularly if he isn't a 'regular') ends up on the winning side of things, the losing player will dig very deeply in order to scrape out a win. I remember my first encounter with someone who knew kicks and caroms, and it was a real eye-opener. Now, take that sinking feeling, add a jigger of "poor loser" and a few cocktails to the mix, stir well, and you have the inception of Call Shot.
Ironically, even though Call Shot appears to have evolved to eliminate every last instance of "slop", the pros would have difficulty if they had to call every brush of a rail.
Fortunately, the few times I've played in bar tournaments, they were run BCA style. If someone ever pulled out a bizarre set of "Call Every Little Nuance" rules like that on me, I think I'd just settle up whatever little wager there was and move on.
The most common "slop" that I've seen with "Call Pocket" is the missed bank into a side pocket which goes slightly long and reverses into a triple-bank into the same pocket. A lot of people know this shot though, and I've seen it played strategically.
If someone were to call "Four ball, corner pocket, brushing the side rail.", and then shoots it in "clean", failing to brush that side rail, would that be loss of turn as well?
Ken
To me, "Bar Rules" doesn't indicate a specific set of rules, it's more of a warning which says, "Don't be surprised if weirdness occurs." If there is a "Bar Rules" information underground, the newsletter masthead should read, "Alcohol and Pool Don't Mix."
Maybe Call Shot simply spreads by human nature, meaning that every time a more talented player (particularly if he isn't a 'regular') ends up on the winning side of things, the losing player will dig very deeply in order to scrape out a win. I remember my first encounter with someone who knew kicks and caroms, and it was a real eye-opener. Now, take that sinking feeling, add a jigger of "poor loser" and a few cocktails to the mix, stir well, and you have the inception of Call Shot.
Ironically, even though Call Shot appears to have evolved to eliminate every last instance of "slop", the pros would have difficulty if they had to call every brush of a rail.
Fortunately, the few times I've played in bar tournaments, they were run BCA style. If someone ever pulled out a bizarre set of "Call Every Little Nuance" rules like that on me, I think I'd just settle up whatever little wager there was and move on.
The most common "slop" that I've seen with "Call Pocket" is the missed bank into a side pocket which goes slightly long and reverses into a triple-bank into the same pocket. A lot of people know this shot though, and I've seen it played strategically.
If someone were to call "Four ball, corner pocket, brushing the side rail.", and then shoots it in "clean", failing to brush that side rail, would that be loss of turn as well?
Ken
In some of the places I've been in....yes!!!
BTW, I really like your post...made me chuckle!!! :thumbup:
Maniac
I play with some latino buddies and they play something like last pocket. It's to crazy with all the rules. We refuse to play it. I only hate defense when your opponent is either to chicken to go for a break out or they are just doing it because they know it bothers you. Hate the, I can't make 3 balls in a row but I can safe the heck out of you players. Cocky low ranked players are the worst.
you are using the same word they are saying about bar players " chicken"
i would not call it chicken to break a cluster out... i call it smart to wait for your opponent to break up a cluster and open up the layout for you. i have won many a game like that since this old reformed bar player started using defense.
If we are talking about unsportsmanlike conduct wouldn't that be applied to the one obviously abusing the rules and continueing to scratch to leave you hooked in the kitchen? If that abuse is fair game then I wouldn't be worried about my idea. And if what he was doing wasn't fair game, my idea isn't needed.
i had that done to me plenty of times. it made me improve my kicking game for sure. nothing like pissing some one off by kicking back up table and making the 8 in a corner pocket you called.
Tiger Woods and SVB golfing
Tiger is talking about how much tougher golf is than pool. Smaller balls being navigated over 7,000 yards, no rails on a golf course to keep you in the fairway, etc.
"In pool you play on a 4 1/2 x 9 surface. You have 6 holes to shoot at while I have one. No trees, no sand traps" and on and on.
He asks Shane how he can possibly think pool can be so difficult.
Shane calmly walks over to Tiger's ball, chips it into a nearby porta potty, turns to Tiger and says....
"Safety mother f***er"!
Tiger is talking about how much tougher golf is than pool. Smaller balls being navigated over 7,000 yards, no rails on a golf course to keep you in the fairway, etc.
"In pool you play on a 4 1/2 x 9 surface. You have 6 holes to shoot at while I have one. No trees, no sand traps" and on and on.
He asks Shane how he can possibly think pool can be so difficult.
Shane calmly walks over to Tiger's ball, chips it into a nearby porta potty, turns to Tiger and says....
"Safety mother f***er"!