Shop Talk.

I have a question I hope isn't derailing this thread.
You always claim that your cases have the best protection for the cues, I've always felt the best protection are the old tight tube style cases (maybe the wrong term) where the cue fits into the big tube rather then in an interior in a larger tube.
I use a GTF case now (which I believe you also make) and I feel that is much better protection for a cue then your other style case. If my case were to get run over I'd rather it be in the GTF or a fellini or that style then say your 2x4 rugged or whatever you call that other style. Your thoughts please.

I'm sorry if my terms or use of words are wrong , I hope you understand what I mean.
 
Eric Crisp got a nice case.
Direct heat can cause vegetable tanned leather to shrink or crack.
 
Means,show pics (proof) or get the f*** out. Thanks for the red rep,btw.

Yea the guy got me too. That's his trademark. Harass JB then pass out red rep to who ever says anything about it. Real classy guy. Guess it makes him feel important.
 
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I thought the grain side was the flesh side? Is full grain, "tooling leather"?

Vegetable tanned is tooling leather. When you talk about full grain, top grain, corrected grain, its usually in regards to chrome tanned upholstery or garment type leathers.
Veg tan is a full grain leather, and is graded by surface quality. The cleanest and smoothest is the A grade, the hides with scars and brands get graded from there. With veg tan, I prefer to see some marks on the leather. Its a character trait similar to wood grain. Perfectly clean smooth leather might as well be vinyl appearance wise.
Chuck
 
With veg tan, I prefer to see some marks on the leather. Its a character trait similar to wood grain. Perfectly clean smooth leather might as well be vinyl appearance wise.
Chuck
Just like sugar marks in cue shafts. It hurts nothing and I prefer it for playability. Almost like a snow white shaft might as well be graphite...:thumbup:
 
I have a question I hope isn't derailing this thread.
You always claim that your cases have the best protection for the cues, I've always felt the best protection are the old tight tube style cases (maybe the wrong term) where the cue fits into the big tube rather then in an interior in a larger tube.
I use a GTF case now (which I believe you also make) and I feel that is much better protection for a cue then your other style case. If my case were to get run over I'd rather it be in the GTF or a fellini or that style then say your 2x4 rugged or whatever you call that other style. Your thoughts please.

I'm sorry if my terms or use of words are wrong , I hope you understand what I mean.

It's a fair question of course. There are three types of hard cue case, other than the suitcase style.

1. Single Tube - Cloth divided interior
2. Multi-tube - Cloth lined
3. Foam Core - cloth or flocking lined.

The cases we make are 1 and 2. The GTF and the whole "Fellini" family are #1. Most of the other tube cases we make are also #1 including the Rugged line.

The major difference is the way the cases close. The GTF style closes with a slip cover that is flush with the body. The other cases generally have a cap which either fits over the body or zips up.

The GTF style provides a slightly better seal due to the coverage of the lid over the body joint. So in that respect it will have a little better protection against moisture.

Structurally though the GTF and our other cases are about the same when facing impact. It really depends more on the material used as there are many types of plastic. The strength of the tube is related to the wall thickness and the type of plastic used.

I am at the airport. I will elaborate on this later and provide some pictures to illustrate the point a little better.
 
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Eric Crisp got a nice case.
Direct heat can cause vegetable tanned leather to shrink or crack.

Yes he did. Don't know what you mean by direct heat. High ambient heat or cold can cause just about any leather to react in some way. Most people know that things stiffen in cold and relax when it's hot.

Here is an experiment I did putting about 900 degrees against nappa leather for a couple minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx-pEIFxUn4
 

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Vegetable tanned is tooling leather. When you talk about full grain, top grain, corrected grain, its usually in regards to chrome tanned upholstery or garment type leathers.
Veg tan is a full grain leather, and is graded by surface quality. The cleanest and smoothest is the A grade, the hides with scars and brands get graded from there. With veg tan, I prefer to see some marks on the leather. Its a character trait similar to wood grain. Perfectly clean smooth leather might as well be vinyl appearance wise.
Chuck

Thanks, Chuck!

I have dabbled with leather working in the past and I still have a small collection of basic tools. I never did understand the different types of leather, but now I have a better idea! I made a few "pint koozies" for some friends with some scrap leather that I was given.

I'd like to get into making smaller things; pouches and such.
 
The master came to chime in. :thumbup:

As a dummy to leather, I would like to know as well.

If you are really interested you don't need Jack or myself to tell you. Just use Google and you will learn far more than either of us knows.

Very rarely is a leather worker a master of all leather types in my opinion. Leather comes in so many varieties that very few leather workers will even want to or even be able to use many of them. It is my observation that most leather workers will use a few types that they feel most comfortable with.
 
If you are really interested you don't need Jack or myself to tell you. Just use Google and you will learn far more than either of us knows.

Very rarely is a leather worker a master of all leather types in my opinion. Leather comes in so many varieties that very few leather workers will even want to or even be able to use many of them. It is my observation that most leather workers will use a few types that they feel most comfortable with.

You leather guys keep up the good work. I love leather especially jackets and seems to be a downward trend in regards to fashion.

Stores and designer brands are making less of it.

You want leather? Faux Leather is what I am being directed to.
 
Just as you would not leave an expensive saddle out in the sun. Putting a Vegetable tanned cue case in the trunk of your car is asking for trouble.
 
Just as you would not leave an expensive saddle out in the sun. Putting a Vegetable tanned cue case in the trunk of your car is asking for trouble.

I am not sure what your experience is with leather but for your information saddles often spend a lot of time in the sun. Veg tan saddle leather is a lot tougher than you think.

Generally though you don't want to leave anything in the sun if you can help it because of the UV light that is harmful to most everything man made with too much exposure.

My own personal experience is that I have left my cues in the car (not in a trunk) all my life with no adverse affect.

However it's generally good advice not to leave things you care about in extreme conditions.
 
John, it would be interesting to know the tanning process. From skinning, hair removal, etc, the entire process.

I know its easy enuff to Google but some hunters tan their own and use every part of an animal.

I knew a girl years ago that was allergic to the tanning process so she was looking to get a hide from the Natives up north so she could have a jacket made.

There is one way of smoke tanning it and if I remember, actually using urine as an alternative to chemicals which they didn't have years ago.

I grew up a block away from a Tannery. They used to get the hides in, with a lot of rotting fat and gunk on them. Man, that place stunk to high Heaven.

The workers also stunk worse than anything I have ever smelt also.

I'm sure that the process is much cleaner these days.

Usually, I have access to Moose, Elk and Deer in the Fall so it is something that I was considering trying at some point.
 
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John, it would be interesting to know the tanning process. From skinning, hair removal, etc, the entire process.

I know its easy enuff to Google but some hunters tan their own and use every part of an animal.

I knew a girl years ago that was allergic to the tanning process so she was looking to get a hide from the Natives up north so she could have a jacket made.

There is one way of smoke tanning it and if I remember, actually using urine as an alternative to chemicals which they didn't have years ago.

I grew up a block away from a Tannery. They used to get the hides in, with a lot of rotting fat and gunk on them. Man, that place stunk to high Heaven.

The workers also stunk worse than anything I have ever smelt also.

I'm sure that the process is much cleaner these days.

Usually, I have access to Moose, Elk and Deer in the Fall so it is something that I was considering trying at some point.

I would be happy to describe the tanning process but my description would be based on only a few visits to actual tanneries. There is actually a remarkable amount of information about every way to tan available on the net.

Here is a playlist of videos showing how leather is made: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSKV5CK_fziUVoOPhn6m64-Z8lLeFt7rq

Basically the skin is placed in a vat of liquid that is mixed to make the hair fall off after a few days. Most of the hair will come off and the rest will be removed by hand. Then the skin is washed and it's then conditioned with another liquid mix that is designed to replace the cells with material that biodegrades extremely slowly. When this happens the result is leather, a skin that has been worked into a useful material that is strong and won't rot easily.

There are many ways to tan leather and the link I provided in an earlier post describes methods going back to the Eygptians and the Romans. Hunters sometimes use brain tanning which is using the brains of the animal to remove the hair.

In industrial tanning the skins are worked in huge drums where the mixture inside and the amount of time in the drums determines the type of leather that will be produced. In general using vegetable derived chemicals such as tannin from the bark of oak trees and oils coupled with longer curing times produces the most desirable vegetable tanned leathers that are associated with tooling and carving. Use of chemicals such as chromium speeds up production and produces a different type of leather. This is where the term chrome tanned comes from. Generally the softer leathers such as nappa and prints will be produced through the chrome tanning process.

All in all this is a labor intensive and nasty business. Even the best tanneries are not nice places to work. From an environmental standpoint leather production is still highly polluting in some places while in others major steps were taken to control the waste produced and reduce the pollution to acceptable levels.

I personally have tried to weigh the pros and cons of using leather vs. going to all man-made materials. What I ultimately decided is that all materials impact the environment to varying degrees and ultimately leather is a material which can be made by any human on their own using only what they can find in nature. So although the industrial scale of tanning has a sordid history of being major polluters the product is incredibly beneficial to mankind as a whole. To me leather is a natural example of recycling. Because of the vast consumption of meat there is plenty of cowhide available which would otherwise be left to rot if not made into useful leather.

I have come to appreciate even more deeply the amount of work and thought that goes into producing leather. To appreciate the vast array of textures and uses leather has. Most leather workers today are not close to the tanning process. We buy our leather from wholesalers or in my case from tannery agents in giant markets.

Here is a trip to Tandy Leather in Oklahoma City a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR8p6PGBboI

It's all fascinating to me.
 
Thanks John. I watched the first video on the tannery. Serious process and specialized equipment. You can be sure that old tannery in the wood 2 story building close to where I grew up wasn't close to this.

The workers used to come into a service station where we worked for pop and chips at lunch. When we saw them coming across the street, we hid in the back and flipped coins to see who was going to wait on them.

Previously, I had watched a video on the tanning process in a 3rd World country. It involved young boys walking thru the vats of chemical in bare feet on top of the leather. Hardly a Work Safe Employer eh.

Not to derail but in watching your visit to Tandy, I watched a related video on different glues used in leather work. Quite often, in the Ask the Cue Maker Forum, someone will ask what type of glue to use in making cue tips. For people who want to try making their own tips.

I was amazed at how strong Contact Cement was if applied properly. I had used Contact Cement in other applications other than leather before and had varying results at times depending on the material.

Not that I'm suggesting that tip makers use contact cement but the guy said that if the glue is applied properly, the leather will actually tear at the fibers and not the glue line. If it is that effective, I don't see where it can't be used in gluing tip layers together.

Huge Skiving machines and embossing rollers. I guess we know where our leather wraps come from now. Very interesting. I am going to see if I can dig up a video on smoke tanning by the Natives.
 
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