No Conflict Rules Favor the Better Player

[CreeDo]

Paul, why NOT reward someone for what you insist on calling a wired trick shot, though it's
only really 'wired' in 9b and it's difficult in all other games?

What is your objection to using a challenging trick shot to determine who gets the
advantage of shooting first?

We use the lag as a skilled shot that must be executed well to get first break advantage.
So why not let every break be a skilled shot that must be executed well
to get the first shot at controlling the table?

Is your main objection the time spent setting up the trick shot?
Because that's easily solved with a magic rack.

 

[Paul Schofield]

So why not let every break be a skilled shot that must be executed well to get the first shot at controlling the table?

That is exactly what my rules do. Control the cue ball, control the 1-ball, and get a good spread...all of which requires a great amount of skill.

Look, it is time that you play under these rules so that you can intelligently talk about them. My next event is in August. Come and play so that you can stop speculating. You don't know what you are talking about. You should know that my tournaments fill fast and there are some very fine players who participate.

I do stuff.

 

[BeiberLvr]

That is exactly what my rules do. Control the cue ball, control the 1-ball, and get a good spread...all of which requires a great amount of skill.

You know what takes even more skill?

Doing the above AND making a ball.

 

[Paul Schofield]

You know what takes even more skill?

Doing the above AND making a ball.

You are correct. The skill that you refer to involves, manipulating the rack, pattern racking, reading little spaces between the balls, creating little spaces between balls, fingering the front ball, spinning the balls, tapping the balls, racking the balls over and over and over, cocking the rack, pushing the balls up or down on the spot, checking the rack (yours and your opponent's), calling for a re-rack, special deadball racking gadgets, tacticaal moves: calling your opponent a cheater before he calls you a cheater. bringing matches to a halt when a player is losing.

I say that these skills are destructive, time consuming, and should play no roll in the outcome of a match.

 

[MOJOE]

I'd love to play in a tournament with Paul's rules. Looking at the results of past events tells me that the better players are still winning!

 

[ugotactionTX]

this...

is spot on!

fun, entertainment, seasoning, testing oneself, learning to overcome nerves, education, supporting the event or director or room owner, developing personal war stories, ...

 

[Paul Schofield]

Paul, do you have anything else in mind for more changes in format? Did some more problems come up that you have a propose solution for or do you think you've found the right format by now?

I think you're on the right track and I'm glad to see you experimenting. Pool is stuck in some ways and you're trying to unstick her, so to speak.

Jeff Livingston

I am always trying to find ways to make our great sport more palatable and more fun for everyone. I experiment with different concepts because, unlike golf courses and bowling alleys, there is no well known, prescribed method for making a billiard room successful. We room owners are out there on our own. If I do what everyone else has always done, I am going to be out of business.

I will only pass on the things that work. Lord knows I have had many, many flops over the years.

 

[buckshotshoey]

You are correct. The skill that you refer to involves, manipulating the rack, pattern racking, reading little spaces between the balls, creating little spaces between balls, fingering the front ball, spinning the balls, tapping the balls, racking the balls over and over and over, cocking the rack, pushing the balls up or down on the spot, checking the rack (yours and your opponent's), calling for a re-rack, special deadball racking gadgets, tacticaal moves: calling your opponent a cheater before he calls you a cheater. bringing matches to a halt when a player is losing.

I say that these skills are destructive, time consuming, and should play no roll in the outcome of a match.

I have never tried one, but what do you think of using a magic rack? I can see the advantage of one. Less manipulation possible. Plus you won't get the annoying rack lines in tbe cloth between the foot rail and foot spot.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

You are correct. The skill that you refer to involves, manipulating the rack, pattern racking, reading little spaces between the balls, creating little spaces between balls, fingering the front ball, spinning the balls, tapping the balls, racking the balls over and over and over, cocking the rack, pushing the balls up or down on the spot, checking the rack (yours and your opponent's), calling for a re-rack, special deadball racking gadgets, tacticaal moves: calling your opponent a cheater before he calls you a cheater. bringing matches to a halt when a player is losing.

I say that these skills are destructive, time consuming, and should play no roll in the outcome of a match.

I find it easiest to make a ball in 10 ball with a very tight rack. I can skillfully make the 2nd ball in the side. I don't need to manipulate anything, I just need a tight rack. With the magic rack, the only requirement from me to make the 2nd ball is a good hit on the head ball at a reasonable speed. Not sure what the objection to that would be?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Not true. Alternating breaks makes the matches closer but the better player wins more often. (good in every way)

Not sure why you would think this. Lets say I routinely run 2-3 racks, and my opponent rarely can run 1. In this scenario, obviously I have an advantage *in the same race* if it is winner breaks. This is because my opponents break is unlikely to cost me a rack, whereas my break may cost him 3. What am I missing?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

You are exactly right. The break is the most important shot of the game. The break is highly skilled. Control the cue-ball. Control the 1-Ball. Get a good spread. It is very difficult to do all of this. How many times does a player break perfectly, sit the cue ball in the center of the table, have a perfect shot on the 1-ball, but he sells out because he happened not to fluke a ball in on the break?...or...a player breaks terribly, puts the cue ball on the footrail, puts the 1-ball on the headrail, and happens not to make a ball on the break, and now it is his opponent's shot. It seems to me that the virtues of reward and punishment are better served by having a player shoot what he breaks. Leave the lucked and wired ball out of it.

Paul,

Are you aware of the variables at play in the break shot? Speed, spin, follow/draw, fullness of hit, cue elevation, etc. Are you suggesting that blending these variables together to reliably make a ball is a "fluke"? Or a "trick shot"? Is all you say about this no conflict rules specifically targeted at 9 ball and no other game? Making balls in 8 ball and 10 ball requires a skillful blending of those variables, assuming you are able to produce a tight rack. With the magic rack, you are.

It seems all you claim rests on the idea that there is no component of skill in making a ball on the break with a tight rack. In 9 ball, I would agree that not much skill is needed. No so in the other games.

KMRUNOUT

 

[alstl]

How predictable is it the no conflict thread evolves into conflict?

 

[Paul Schofield]

Paul,

Are you aware of the variables at play in the break shot? Speed, spin, follow/draw, fullness of hit, cue elevation, etc. Are you suggesting that blending these variables together to reliably make a ball is a "fluke"? Or a "trick shot"? KMRUNOUT

Most trick shots do require a special hit on the cue ball.

The Magic Rack is an open invitation to pattern rack. But let's put that aside for a minute. What about the variables of the equipment? Here are some just to name a few: Different size balls, worn balls, dirt on the balls, sticky balls, skid marks on the Magic Rack, How long is a player going to stand down at that rack messing with the balls, wasting time so he can get them set up to make his trick shot. after all, everyone knows that a trick shot is all dependent on how the balls are set up. The ball on the break is far, far, more trouble than it is worth. I got rid of it.

Can anyone tell me the difference between the templates shown below and a Magic Rack?

 

[buckshotshoey]

After watching the 2012 Mosconi cup, I was curious of they break they were using. 9 ball is placed on head spot, and 3 balls had to either be pocketed or cross head string (or in combination). I can tell you after trying it for a while, it is DEFINITELY SKILL! Even in 9 ball. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Paul Schofield]

After watching the 2012 Mosconi cup, I was curious of they break they were using. 9 ball is placed on head spot, and 3 balls had to either be pocketed or cross head string (or in combination). I can tell you after trying it for a while, it is DEFINITELY SKILL! Even in 9 ball. The proof is in the pudding.

You are correct. It is skill. At the same time, the shot is also dependent upon how the balls are set up. If the balls are not just right, the shot becomes more difficult if not impossible. Getting the balls set up just right can take a lot of time, slow matches down, and cause the players to melt down to the point where matches are halted for 15 minutes. I have seen it.

There is no way to keep the ball on the break and at the same time stop the players from cheating and fighting.

 

[Paul Schofield]

How predictable is it the no conflict thread evolves into conflict?

Oh I don't know. I have always found these discussions on this topic to be very civil. I have not seen any disrespect or namecalling as I see on other threads.

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

We use the lag as a skilled shot that must be executed well to get first break advantage.

How about a game of straight pool to see who breaks the first game in 9 ball :thumbup:

 

[Paul Schofield]

Alternating breaks makes the matches closer but the better player wins more often. (good in every way)

Not sure why you would think this. Lets say I routinely run 2-3 racks, and my opponent rarely can run 1. In this scenario, obviously I have an advantage *in the same race* if it is winner breaks. This is because my opponents break is unlikely to cost me a rack, whereas my break may cost him 3. What am I missing?

KMRUNOUT

You are missing something here. You are describing how you win a match with winner breaks. You are not thinking about how he wins a match with winner breaks and yes, he will win a match from time to time.

The rule is: The more often both players are brought to the table on a predictable and regular basis, the bigger the advantage for the better player. The weaker player wins by having lopsided opportunites in his favor and is allowed to score without limit untill he makes a mistake. Alternating breaks goes some distance toward eliminating his best chance at winning.

Here is an extreme example: I can run 150 balls in straight pool. I can play the best player in the world 10 games to 150 and I am going to win 1,2,or 3 games. Imagine if we were to play 150 points but we were only allowed to run 4 balls (4 and stop). Without exageration, I could not win even 1 game in 10,000 under these rules. These rules will make the matches closer but impossible for me to win. Bringing the best player back to the table on a regular and predictable basis destroy the only way I can possibly win (lopsided opportunities and being allowed to score without limit).

The same is true for Eight & Nine-Ball. Todays rules of winner breaks, early 9-balls, and Texas Express can make for very lopsided opportunities in a match. It is easy to lose to a player that is half your speed. Alternate breaks, shoot after a legal break, and no short games go a long way toward creating more equal opportunities (favoring the stronger player). These rules keep a match from getting away from the better player.

I have extensive stats on this subject.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Furthermore, alternate breaks makes for good competition. Every sport that I can think of has written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities to be on offence.

 

[one stroke]

Furthermore, alternate breaks makes for good competition. Every sport that I can think of has written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities to be on offence.

That's correct and because of that I disagree that the better player wins more ,,
Short race alternate breaks lead to closer matches ,, in a winner break scenario the better player extends the lead and can't get beat by a bad roll or to ,,
The 5 best players I ever beat all came in alternating break formats ,,and I have seen countless times better players get knocked off by lesser players that would have exactly zero chance of winning a winner break match


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