So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

How could it end?

The accusations are out there and some people here are adamant that it was a conspiracy even though they have no proof other than hearsay? So if people are willing to be insulting and pissy over hearsay about an event that happened 23 years ago then how do you think it will end?

We had this out years ago. It has resurfaced. It will continue to resurface.

Buddy says it wasn't a dump. Guess no one gives weight to the guy who was actually playing and all the weight to the people who were not playing. Buddy can't win in this situation anyway.

I think I am going to start looking for all the matches where a top player dogged it and start insinuating that it was a dump. Just to get conversation going.......

The proof is in the game. Let's get over the dogging one or two shots here and there thing. Buddy clearly played shape to hook himself on several shots, even if he did not succeed all the time. He was trying to get LeBron to the table. The fact that LeBron sucked and could not run out when Buddy tried to hand him the games forced Buddy to shoot more.

If anyone can come up with a pro match close to the errors that Buddy did and TRIED to do, I'd like to see it. It's not just when Buddy did miss or scratch, it's the number of times you can see he tried to.
 
The proof is in the game. Let's get over the dogging one or two shots here and there thing. Buddy clearly played shape to hook himself on several shots, even if he did not succeed all the time. He was trying to get LeBron to the table. The fact that LeBron sucked and could not run out when Buddy tried to hand him the games forced Buddy to shoot more.

If anyone can come up with a pro match close to the errors that Buddy did and TRIED to do, I'd like to see it. It's not just when Buddy did miss or scratch, it's the number of times you can see he tried to.

Mark them? How many times did he try to hook himself? I saw only one time where the cue ball was heading towards a possible hook. That was from the five to the six in the last game. Why not just miss the five?

Lebron ran out plenty of racks. One of them jumping to make the one and run out with the balls clustered near the side.

WHY did Buddy give the shot back? Why didn't he try to jump it or masse and then give up ball in hand? Instead he passes it back and Lebron jumps and runs the rack.
 
Last edited:
Buddy didn't keep quiet. He said there was no dump. You and many others call him a liar.


I don't think anyone actually called him a liar.

I think a one legged cat has a better chance at burying a turd then has as being a legit match.:D
 
I don't think anyone actually called him a liar.

I think a one legged cat has a better chance at burying a turd then has as being a legit match.:D

Your opinion is noted

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
Voltaire

The quest for certainty blocks the search for meaning. Uncertainty is the very condition to impel man to unfold his powers.
Erich Fromm

Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything. It's certainty.
Stephen Colbert

The demand for certainty is one which is natural to man, but is nevertheless an intellectual vice.
Bertrand Russell

From principles is derived probability, but truth or certainty is obtained only from facts.
Tom Stoppard

And finally,

Inquiry is fatal to certainty.
Will Durant
 
ok, i'll bite:

RUMOUR has it,
that YOU dumped.
you DID NOT.

i don't care if it was yesterday, 5 months ago, or 25 years ago.

RUMOUR has it, TODAY....

what do YOU do?



.
 
So JB I guess you meant this only for the other thread ?

+++++++++++

Originally Posted By, JB Cases:

"Case closed. The defense rests. "

+++++++++++

There are witnesses to this !
 
I do not feel like reading through all of the replies, so sorry if this link has already been posted, but here is the last 8 minutes of that match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

Hall missed 2 very easy shots. It sure does look to me like he dumped. This is a very seasoned player. These pro's do not miss easy shots like that (for any kind of money). The pro's have much stronger mental games, and just do not make silly errors like that (I do not think).

1991 at the Mirage Hotel. It was the first Challenge of Champions and I was the TD and ref for all the matches. Yes, the finals between Buddy and Mike looked a little funny at times, but there was nothing I could do except watch and wonder about it. Everyone knew Mike went off at 20-1. I had told some people that it was a bad line for a player like Mike in a short race format like this. I knew anyone could win it, they were all great players. Afterward I found out that seven of the eight players had made a deal.
 
whoever made that line of 20/1 was the one that should be investigated.

I've never in my life heard of a casino putting a line up on a pool match months in advance. The 'Challenge of Champions' is usually scheduled close to a year in advance with ESPN (I don't know for sure about 91, but would believe more than 6 months).

This intricate conspiracy to end up betting $2200. on Mike Lebron??? Something is really, really wrong with this entire scenario.....I'm beginning to think whoever made that line of 20/1 was the one that should be investigated.


Yes I hadn't heard of it then - but then later on here someone brought it up.

But this is exactly the point I am making. RH Gilmer, a saint of a man, got it wrong. He says he watched the match over and over and over and yet he still didn't recall the sequence correctly.

And the story about Earl doesn't wash right.

Think about it? Who is the THEY that scheduled the COC just to keep Earl out?

Matt Braun? Why would he not want Earl playing? The players don't schedule Matt's event he does. In past years it's even conflicted with the US Open overlapping by a few days.

And why wouldn't Earl have chirped about this conspiracy before and after the event to other people? You know the old saying a happy customer tells ten people and an unhappy one tells everyone.

So surely Earl would have made waves about it knowing what we know of Earl.

Now, let's look at the timeline...how far in advance of an event does Vegas make lines? How much time would the players have known about it in time to ask Earl to be a part of it?

I assume that based on Earl claiming to have been asked it would have had to have been months prior and at that point without the line up complete. Would Vegas have made lines known to the public months before the event? Do they do that for other sporting events? Alright so let's say that the lines were public months in advance..... why then only 11 bets on LeBron at 20:1? Wouldn't that have given those players plenty of time to arrange for dozens of shills to be in vegas to make bets? Wouldn't it have enticed regular folks to bet and thus been way more than 11 bets?

So the timing of all that Mr. Gilmer wrote doesn't make sense to me.

I can certainly see Earl not agreeing to be a part of any conspiracy to dump. But I doubt he was even asked. I would think that given Earl's volatility it would be imprudent to include him. Although, the real answer is....we will just never know.
 
I've never in my life heard of a casino putting a line up on a pool match months in advance. The 'Challenge of Champions' is usually scheduled close to a year in advance with ESPN (I don't know for sure about 91, but would believe more than 6 months).

This intricate conspiracy to end up betting $2200. on Mike Lebron??? Something is really, really wrong with this entire scenario.....I'm beginning to think whoever made that line of 20/1 was the one that should be investigated.

Obviously you have no idea about "futures" bets or how a casino sportsbook works.

The story I got was that this was going to be kind of a test run for future gaming on pool and the casino patterned it like it would for any other upcoming event. Odds on next year's super bowl are already out and they will fluctuate throughout the summer depending on how much is bet on each team, how certain draft signees are performing, what free agents each team picks up, who gets injured, etc....

Why would a pool match be any different when it puts out an early line? Oh yeah, the fact that you can't bet on most pool players or put a line out on them where they can manipulate the outcome. I've seen it happen for far less than the amount that was won on Lebron here in 2-day Calcutta events.

The reason there was no real stink about it in Vegas is because, as Jay has said, it was really small potatoes in Vegas terms. 50-100K to a legit Vegas sportsbook is like chicken feed, but dangle and extra 50-100K in front of pool players and well, you see what happens. Too bad, it could have developed into something bigger.
 
Sorry John, I must've missed that post from you. I'm not trying to play games or anything, I was just wondering the earliest that you'd heard about it.

I read about it in 2004 on the Southern Billiards website and the guys talking about it had known about it for years. Scroll down to the 3rd reply.

http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834/Splits-takedowns-savers-etc-are-wrong#.U4PCBmfQecw

ONB

Yes I hadn't heard of it then - but then later on here someone brought it up.

But this is exactly the point I am making. RH Gilmer, a saint of a man, got it wrong. He says he watched the match over and over and over and yet he still didn't recall the sequence correctly.

No he didn't get it right but he was also writing about it 13 years after having seen it.

ONB
 
40 pages and the only thing I have really learned is that World of Leisure wins the award for "ugliest pool table ever." :)
 
Exactly!!! People wanting to air this video on this board is just a bad idea in general. Sweep that crap under the rug and move on. Nothing but bad things can happen if this is shown or made public. Anybody saying any differently is somebody that is disrespecting our sport :mad:

Yeah it happened many moons ago and crap like this has nearly destoryed pool all together!! Lets move forward now ----------->

I agree with you, that was over 20 years ago. Present day we are still waiting for players to be paid from this year's U.S. Open. :(

And what if it happened 3 years ago? Should we still "sweep it under the rug" and forget about it?

ONB
 
I watched it again

And saw two pieces of shit ruin pool tournaments at casino's! Yes Buddy and Mike and all the other players involved are pieces of shit!

Wedge
 
And saw two pieces of shit ruin pool tournaments at casino's! Yes Buddy and Mike and all the other players involved are pieces of shit!

Wedge

Really, then explain why they had it in the same casino for two more years. And since then hundreds of events have been held in casinos.

Stan James and other prominent bookmakers book bets for all the major snooker events. As well they book bets on all the major pool events held by matchroom including Mosconi Cup even when it's held in a casino such as the MGM grand.

Face it, pool is simply too small time for American sports books to mess with.

All this talk about dumping and there were only 11 bets booked on Lebron? All these triple smart pool players could only get 11 bets down?

You're really a sad negative person. I hope you never serve jury duty because you would convict on the slimmest of evidence so you could be home for lunch.

Here, you can enjoy a movie that may widen your view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rInISHcZcPo
 
Back
Top