LA Keith McCready vs Buddy Hall - You Be The Judge

Neil said:
Well, Mike, maybe YOU should try reading once in a while instead of condeming right off the bat. Or is it just that after all your worship of TOI, you still don't even understand what in the heck it even is? TOI IS NOT JUST USING INSIDE ENGLISH! In fact, CJ has stated many times that using inside ENGLISH is not TOI.

In case you have missed it, CJ has stated many, many times, even stated it TODAY, that TOI uses ONE speed. Keith is advocating up to 8 speeds. Not similar in the least.

But, you go right ahead and associate any use of inside with TOI if it makes you feel better. No need to actually know what you are actually talking about. Just so you do your usual suck-up to CJ.

I'm constantly having to shoot different distances which causes me to pick up my speed slightly or lessen it to get the position I need. If I didn't do this, swerve would change my angle and cue ball reaction.

Your paragraph above is proof in and of itself that you don't even really understand what you are talking about. I was gone for a while today, and intended to explain in detail to the other poster about his question. Congrats, you just used up that time of mine by having to respond to your nonsense once again. So, once again, instead of actually adding something to the thread, all you have done is turn it into another bashing thread. Good job.:rolleyes:
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Thanks for confirming that you haven't figured out TOI. Actually this thread is about what Keith does which is similar to TOI. And like a moth to the flame, "Heeeeeeere's Neil!"

Just the facts...CJ Wiley and Keith McCready are talking about similar techniques and you want to argue about it? And BTW, anytime you post in a TOI thread, it becomes a "bashing thread". Thanks for sharing.

Does anybody want to discuss what Keith talked about?

Best,
Mike
 
Cardigan Kid said:
Hahaha, awesome, Mike! You said it all right there. And yes, how huge is THAT, Keith effin McCready makes an entrance with inside information. The learning is vast, if one can wade through the naysayers.
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Well, I was going to help you out, forget that now. Since you can't seem to read either, no one ever said anything against anything Keith said in this thread. But, go ahead with your suck up to CJ and read whatever you want into it, and learn nothing in the process, just like the guy you are applauding in your first post.

It was my bad, sorry I mistook for you for someone that actually wanted to learn something on here. Won't make that mistake again.:rolleyes:
 
Mikjary said:
]I'd like to thank Keith for giving up a major bit of info about his game. This, to me, is actually huge! I've discussed exactly what CJ and Keith gave up for years with many players. I'd like to know more if Keith would like to talk about it.
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I'd actually prefer that he came back out of retirement and we still had to figure it all out on our own, but if he truly feels his competitive days are over and he wishes to finally divulge his trade secrets, I'm sure there will be thousands of eager eyes awaiting his every post. :cool:
 
Cardigan Kid said:
Well that's a poor attitude to have if you ever want to advance in any field. If your general field of interest was religion, I'm sure reading the bible would be an interest.

And if your interest is the game of pool, you should be craving any and all information possible, especially from real champion high caliber players. I try to soak up everything I can. For example, I read the book "essential pool" by hall of famer Babe Cranfield, it's very basic, but there are some gems of information there, some I already knew, but still nice to hear it in the words of a hall of famer and world champion.

So it's not a sales pitch if you genuinely love the game and want to learn.

At least look into it, then write it off, because in my experience looking into it may just lead to one very useful description of a shot that might just get you out in a crucial game someday.
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I do love the game and want to learn, but just because I like cooking doesn't mean I'm going to go out and buy the latest ginsu knife. I've been advancing just fine by going to the table and just messing around by myself, seeing what works, what doesn't and paying attention when something doesn't go as planned. I've also got a fairly limited budget - I've got a very basic set-up so I can do things for/with my girlfriend from time to time. I don't need the Cuetecs that Shane represents, the OBs that Dechaine does, etc.

The best, most useful pieces of information I've gotten so far are from Mosconi's little book and
Joe Tucker's racking secrets.

It doesn't change the fact that it's a sales pitch.

Mikjary said:
It's about english and cue ball control is the name of the game. You're so right, but I think outside spin is great for pocketing balls. I use it quite a bit. TOI isn't an aiming system. It's like PSR, CIT, BIH, APA or TE9ball...it's about the internet and exchanging information to get a point across. Easy to do in person, but tough on a monitor.

Is it TOI you have a problem with, or is it the jargon? We'll just call it inside spin from now on. If anybody on this forum, from now on wants to eliminate the acronym known as TOI...click this button and it will never appear on your computer, again.

View attachment 338356

Problem solved!

Best,
Mike
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It's the idea that TOI is some "secret", or that it encompasses more than the shot/leave. To magnify the problem, he uses "jargon" to try to redefine everything, while at the same time saying that his new definition of "inside" is not "english". That, to me, is just fluff. I could go on about other things I don't like about posting styles, but we'll keep this to "TOI".

As I said, it's like every time somebody uses a little pocketing english, suddenly they're a "TOI user". No, they're not. They're not using this system that CJ is selling, they're using pocketing english or doing it for leave. See how easy that was to explain? I didn't even need a dvd, that was free.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I'd actually prefer that he came back out of retirement and we still had to figure it all out on our own, but if he truly feels his competitive days are over and he wishes to finally divulge his trade secrets, I'm sure there will be thousands of eager eyes awaiting his every post. :cool:
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:grin: True...very true. I agree, even though it may cause my shekel collection to suffer!

Best,
Mike
 
Neil said:
Well, I was going to help you out, forget that now. Since you can't seem to read either, no one ever said anything against anything Keith said in this thread. But, go ahead with your suck up to CJ and read whatever you want into it, and learn nothing in the process, just like the guy you are applauding in your first post.

It was my bad, sorry I mistook for you for someone that actually wanted to learn something on here. Won't make that mistake again.:rolleyes:
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What's next? Take your ball and go home?

That'll show em.
 
Neil said:
I might, since you don't seem to care to do anything about the nonsense on here. Why, you got a problem with that?
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I have a problem with your insults and shots at CJ.

Would you like me to address the root of the issue right now?
 
Banks said:
I do love the game and want to learn, but just because I like cooking doesn't mean I'm going to go out and buy the latest ginsu knife. I've been advancing just fine by going to the table and just messing around by myself, seeing what works, what doesn't and paying attention when something doesn't go as planned. I've also got a fairly limited budget - I've got a very basic set-up so I can do things for/with my girlfriend from time to time. I don't need the Cuetecs that Shane represents, the OBs that Dechaine does, etc.

The best, most useful pieces of information I've gotten so far are from Mosconi's little book and
Joe Tucker's racking secrets.

It doesn't change the fact that it's a sales pitch.



It's the idea that TOI is some "secret", or that it encompasses more than the shot/leave. To magnify the problem, he uses "jargon" to try to redefine everything, while at the same time saying that his new definition of "inside" is not "english". That, to me, is just fluff. I could go on about other things I don't like about posting styles, but we'll keep this to "TOI".

As I said, it's like every time somebody uses a little pocketing english, suddenly they're a "TOI user". No, they're not. They're not using this system that CJ is selling, they're using pocketing english or doing it for leave. See how easy that was to explain? I didn't even need a dvd, that was free.
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I do see the TOI frenzy on here from time to time and I'm guilty of it, too. My personal reasons for giving it this much attention are different than yours.

I hung out with the guys who were using it years ago. I even went on the road with them and they never showed it to me. :mad: I, like an idiot, never realized what they were doing. Up until a year or so ago, I was talking about it with a pro friend/author from time to time (over 20 years). When CJ let it out, a long nagging question had been answered.

I just wish I'd had this info when I started playing. I used outside for everything. Now, I've had to start all over, again. So, I like to read tips that help me figure this out. That's all. Leave it in peace if you don't agree and push on with your search. It's that simple.

Best,
Mike

If nobody wants to use it, that leaves just me. Oh, well! :D
 
Banks...It wasn't that you "couldn't" transfer spin, for a bank shot...but more about it only happens under certain conditions, and when it does happen it's to a very small degree. Even Bob Jewett mentioned a small number, something like 2% transfer. Certainly under the right speeds, spins, and table conditions, you can affect the path of the OB, sometimes enough to make it. But to say it happens every time is nothing close to accurate. BTW, we still teach this concept to all our students. Number one...quit obsessing over it.
Know what it is, know when it's possible, and know if it's enough to make up for the potential miss on the CB from squirt (certainly related to coordination and timing). Risk vs. reward. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Banks said:
Then again, when I first joined, I remember a lot of people claiming that you couldn't transfer spin for a bank. :confused:
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Scott Lee said:
Banks...It wasn't that you "couldn't" transfer spin, for a bank shot...but more about it only happens under certain conditions, and when it does happen it's to a very small degree. Even Bob Jewett mentioned a small number, something like 2% transfer. Certainly under the right speeds, spins, and table conditions, you can affect the path of the OB, sometimes enough to make it. But to say it happens every time is nothing close to accurate. BTW, we still teach this concept to all our students. Number one...quit obsessing over it.
Know what it is, know when it's possible, and know if it's enough to make up for the potential miss on the CB from squirt (certainly related to coordination and timing). Risk vs. reward. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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From Freddy's book, Banking with the Beard, it talks about this and I used to practice this deliberately.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
I have a problem with your insults and shots at CJ.

Would you like me to address the root of the issue right now?
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Read into it whatever you like, you will anyways. Only problem is, I didn't insult CJ, or take a shot at him. I simply explained that using inside english is not TOI, same thing he has said many times on here. You going to warn him to? Maybe you could try just reading what is actually written instead of putting your agenda to everything, like you did here. Then maybe, you could see things for what they are.
 
Neil said:
Read into it whatever you like, you will anyways. Only problem is, I didn't insult CJ, or take a shot at him. I simply explained that using inside english is not TOI, same thing he has said many times on here. You going to warn him to? Maybe you could try just reading what is actually written instead of putting your agenda to everything, like you did here. Then maybe, you could see things for what they are.
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Fine, as you may consider this your final warning.

One more insult, "suck up to CJ" type of comment, innuendo..etc..etc..etc.. will be the last.
 
Boy, there's nothing sweeter than seeing Keith fire in those tough, long shots at warp speed with the cue ball softly floating into place.

For those who have a strong opinion about it, yet haven't given it a chance, TOI isn't just a sales gimmick, nor is it the magic solution to everything in pool. But it does work and mastering it leads to a powerful and intimidating style of play that players like CJ and Keith used to gain a big advantage over the rest of the field for years.
 
Mikjary said:
I do see the TOI frenzy on here from time to time and I'm guilty of it, too. My personal reasons for giving it this much attention are different than yours.

I hung out with the guys who were using it years ago. I even went on the road with them and they never showed it to me. :mad: I, like an idiot, never realized what they were doing. Up until a year or so ago, I was talking about it with a pro friend/author from time to time (over 20 years). When CJ let it out, a long nagging question had been answered.

I just wish I'd had this info when I started playing. I used outside for everything. Now, I've had to start all over, again. So, I like to read tips that help me figure this out. That's all. Leave it in peace if you don't agree and push on with your search. It's that simple.

Best,
Mike

If nobody wants to use it, that leaves just me. Oh, well! :D
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I played a local master my 2nd year of playing, in an APA match, and he held up the CB on a cut shot that I didn't think was possible. Pocketing, I was playing in the action room at our BCA regional and as I was cutting balls in towards the pocket, I could see that the CIS had a decent affect, especially considering I was just a Valley table player trying to knock em down on unforgiving Diamonds. Edit: So, I started to use a little pocketing english to replicate what I saw. I had read about it in a Mosconi book before, iirc, but I've tried to keep things simple. Now that I've gotten a little better after 10 years, I'm a little more free to do those things.

I understand the "leave it in peace" thing, but I have a hard time thinking that the people that I normally hang out with are the types of people that are targeted with these relentless sales pitches.

Scott Lee said:
Banks...It wasn't that you "couldn't" transfer spin, for a bank shot...but more about it only happens under certain conditions, and when it does happen it's to a very small degree. Even Bob Jewett mentioned a small number, something like 2% transfer. Certainly under the right speeds, spins, and table conditions, you can affect the path of the OB, sometimes enough to make it. But to say it happens every time is nothing close to accurate. BTW, we still teach this concept to all our students. Number one...quit obsessing over it.
Know what it is, know when it's possible, and know if it's enough to make up for the potential miss on the CB from squirt (certainly related to coordination and timing). Risk vs. reward. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I'm still rather skeptical of that 2% number. Either that, or a transfer of any sort from a dead to a slightly spinning OB has a much greater effect than 2%(Edit: iow, a 2% spin can change the angle by more than 2%). Under decent conditions, a good banker should be able to control an outcome more often than not. You won't be getting a very good change from a skim, but a full-on hit with medium/low speed better make a change or you're doing it wrong, imo.

Mr. Wilson said:
From Freddy's book, Banking with the Beard, it talks about this and I used to practice this deliberately.
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I'm not sure which part you're referencing.. is it altering the shot with spin?
 
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Mr. Wilson said:
Fine, as you may consider this your final warning.

One more insult, "suck up to CJ" type of comment, innuendo..etc..etc..etc.. will be the last.
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Boy, had to reach for that one didn't you? Guess all the names I was called in this thread don't matter to you, huh? Pretty good, I say nothing against CJ or TOI in the wildest stretch of imagination, yet I get warned for doing so by you. Then, when you can't find where I did anything wrong, you resort to that reach and ignore all else that was said to me, or why I even said what I did. Nice, real nice. Do nothing wrong, try and help someone on here, and this is what one gets for it. I get bashed, and you threaten to ban me. Gee, wonder why so many don't post on here anymore?
 
mr8ball said:
I had the pleasure of watching keith play a few times. I feel if he is using TOI he doesn't know it. Its just his style of play. I have never thought he put much thought into his shots. He made ball so good it was no need for it JMO
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Keith knows exactly what he was doing. I spoke with him on the phone the other day for about an hour and a half, and he shared a lot of his knowledge with me. He gave me suggestions on how to practice effectively. He told me about using different parts of the grip and by moving my hand around on certain shots to control the speed of the cueball better. He talked about shooting off the rail technique's. He has a wealth of knowledge and he's very personable...I couldn't wait to get to the table after speaking with him!!
 
Banks...You're correct about the fuller hit versus a thinner hit, and about the slow speed. Half ball or fuller is one of the conditions. Other conditions include distance between the CB & OB, how much spin on the CB, and table conditions (dirt, wear, humidity). Under these conditions you can slightly influence/change the path of the OB.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Banks said:
I'm still rather skeptical of that 2% number. Either that, or a transfer of any sort from a dead to a slightly spinning OB has a much greater effect than 2%(Edit: iow, a 2% spin can change the angle by more than 2%). Under decent conditions, a good banker should be able to control an outcome more often than not. You won't be getting a very good change from a skim, but a full-on hit with medium/low speed better make a change or you're doing it wrong, imo.
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