LA Keith McCready vs Buddy Hall - You Be The Judge
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
I think that's the simple truth. It's like a way of reprogramming what you've learned for years to get to your current level. You can run out fairly well and have achieved that shortstop status. You're dangerous on the bar rag and maybe you ran a hundred balls, once or thrice. You beat so and so, the pro, at such and such a tourney. If you ask yourself, "Have I really jumped a ball or two in a while?", and the answer is no, maybe injecting something into your game will make a difference. Or are you definitely on your way to winning the US Open?
I'll admit I've been stuck on a plateau for a while. CJ's help has given me a leg up and I may be a ball better than I was a year or so ago. That's a lot and I'm hoping for more. :grin-square: I've already looked at Keith's ideas and tried implementing them, but it's like a reprogramming. You have to put in the time and change your mindset. You can always go back to your old plateau if it doesn't work for you. :wink:
Best,
Mike
But I don't. And I'm smart enough to see through you trying to bait me.
This is way off topic, but you must have a very different interpretation of "slightly" than all one pocket players. Using transferred spin to turn banks is pretty much par for the course. Probably happens 2+ times in a typical game of one pocket. I agree that a fuller hit is required and that dirty balls catch more spin.
This means the many different types of strokes using spin on the cue ball and what touches of speed do to each one...not specifically TOI. Although TOI is speed sensitive, I believe Keith was pointing out the advantages of working with different "feels" across the board using english and ball speed.
Best,
Mike
Keith was a better player at a younger age than I was because of his surroundings
Yes, Keith and I had the opportunity to hang around a lot of seasoned Road Players because we were both "child prodigies". Keith was a better player at a younger age than I was because of his surroundings and influences in LA as opposed to mine in Green City Mo. (population 629 with no stop lights). I caught up eventually, once I had the mentorship of "Omaha John," Dalton Leong, Rusty B. "Big Brad", and playing Vernon Elliot, David Matlock, Johnny Archer, Kim D., Keith McCready, Wade Crane, Reid Pierce, Country Calvin, Buddy Hall, Weldon Rogers.....etc. etc. etc.
Back then if you you were young and had a lot of talent the older Road Players would take you under their wing and steer you into situations that made everyone money.....sometimes tens of thousands.
I believe Keith will agree that Jr. Weldon (Rogers) was one of those type Road Men that knew how to get the cash. He was one of the all time best "one handed" players and also a champion level player on the bar table. He also played the same "dead ball" style that I teach through the TOI Technique.
Jr. Weldon took Keith to several big money matches through the years and Keith usually "took down the dough"......Jr. and I also traveled a lot and would average around 2k a day for weeks at a time.....he often told me how much my game reminded him of Keith's, especially the shot making.
There were several well known Road Players that used the TOI style, although it wasn't considered a technique (at that time) it was passed along by example more than explanation. Omaha John contacted me a few months ago raving about the TOI and I had to remind him that he actually used to play that way (he had an accident and can only play left handed now). It's funny, we will forget some of these things if it's not kept "fresh".
It takes more than I would have imagined to actually teach someone this "art form," and it can be done if the student is willing to change the way they approach the game.......at least put their "old ideas" on the shelf for a few days to legitimately give 'The Touch of Inside' room to grow mentally.
One thing's for sure, if a player's mind is filled with too much "ineffective inventory" there's no room to experience the TOI. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, Keith and I had the opportunity to hang around a lot of seasoned Road Players because we were both "child prodigies". Keith was a better player at a younger age than I was because of his surroundings and influences in LA as opposed to mine in Green City Mo. (population 629 with no stop lights). I caught up eventually, once I had the mentorship of "Omaha John," Dalton Leong, Rusty B. "Big Brad", and playing Vernon Elliot, David Matlock, Johnny Archer, Kim D., Keith McCready, Wade Crane, Reid Pierce, Country Calvin, Buddy Hall, Weldon Rogers.....etc. etc. etc.
Back then if you you were young and had a lot of talent the older Road Players would take you under their wing and steer you into situations that made everyone money.....sometimes tens of thousands.
I believe Keith will agree that Jr. Weldon (Rogers) was one of those type Road Men that knew how to get the cash. He was one of the all time best "one handed" players and also a champion level player on the bar table. He also played the same "dead ball" style that I teach through the TOI Technique.
Jr. Weldon took Keith to several big money matches through the years and Keith usually "took down the dough"......Jr. and I also traveled a lot and would average around 2k a day for weeks at a time.....he often told me how much my game reminded him of Keith's, especially the shot making.
There were several well known Road Players that used the TOI style, although it wasn't considered a technique (at that time) it was passed along by example more than explanation. Omaha John contacted me a few months ago raving about the TOI and I had to remind him that he actually used to play that way (he had an accident and can only play left handed now). It's funny, we will forget some of these things if it's not kept "fresh".
It takes more than I would have imagined to actually teach someone this "art form," and it can be done if the student is willing to change the way they approach the game.......at least put their "old ideas" on the shelf for a few days to legitimately give 'The Touch of Inside' room to grow mentally.
One thing's for sure, if a player's mind is filled with too much "ineffective inventory" there's no room to experience the TOI. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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This is exactly the stuff Keith shared with me in a phone conversation the other day<<<<Amazing!!
You're one lucky guy! Would I be wrong if I said thousands of pool players would've traded places with you in a heart beat? :thumbup:
Best,
Mike
But if you look at Keith's game verses CJ or Buddy Hall (and the generation of Buddy Hall) there is a big difference. CJ plays more like the "old school" greats.
Again as JAM has noted, there just isn't a lot of Keith on video, but what I saw was not only Keith a great shot maker, but he also moved the cue ball a lot. He got position where it looked impossible. The old school guys (and CJ) moved the cue ball minimumally.
Keith made some amazing outs, but often he got himself in trouble. What I have noticed when people say Keith was "on", it was where he had perfect table speed, and he got position without hooking himself or getting himself in trouble. He still was a great shot maker weather he was "on" or "off". Those extended table runs were when he had table speed down or not.
JMO,
Ken
Again as JAM has noted, there just isn't a lot of Keith on video, but what I saw was not only Keith a great shot maker, but he also moved the cue ball a lot. He got position where it looked impossible. The old school guys (and CJ) moved the cue ball minimumally.
Keith made some amazing outs, but often he got himself in trouble. What I have noticed when people say Keith was "on", it was where he had perfect table speed, and he got position without hooking himself or getting himself in trouble. He still was a great shot maker weather he was "on" or "off". Those extended table runs were when he had table speed down or not.
JMO,
Ken
no one is going to acquire Keith McCready's skills in three weeks, however..........
For many champion players it much easier to communicate what they do verbally than any other way. When teaching these techniques you to discern if the student is more visual, auditory or kinesthetic before developing a strategy to pass the information to their mind.......this may sound easy, however when you see it happening it's essential to also demonstrate so they connect the process internally.
The best way I've been taught (mostly through martial arts and golf with Hank Haney) is to identify the skills you want to develop and isolate them so they can be processed subconsciously with minimal conscious awareness.
This is the deep level of why playing with TOI for 3 straight hours will open up a new "mental dimension"......let's face it, no one is going to acquire Keith McCready's skills in three weeks, and what they can do is develop the foundation of what he does so it grows, and then comes alive mentally. 'The Game is the Teacher'
For many champion players it much easier to communicate what they do verbally than any other way. When teaching these techniques you to discern if the student is more visual, auditory or kinesthetic before developing a strategy to pass the information to their mind.......this may sound easy, however when you see it happening it's essential to also demonstrate so they connect the process internally.
The best way I've been taught (mostly through martial arts and golf with Hank Haney) is to identify the skills you want to develop and isolate them so they can be processed subconsciously with minimal conscious awareness.
This is the deep level of why playing with TOI for 3 straight hours will open up a new "mental dimension"......let's face it, no one is going to acquire Keith McCready's skills in three weeks, and what they can do is develop the foundation of what he does so it grows, and then comes alive mentally. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Under pressure it's better to feel the cue-ball more, not less.
I move the cue-ball just as much, it just has a "heavier" look to it.....like Efren, we that use TOI have a cue-ball that appears to float with very little "after contact" spin. Efren described it to me as the "NO SPIN" technique.....whatever you choose to call it the feeling will always be a slightly heavier cue-ball (they're only 6 ozs) and when you spin the cue-ball it will feel slightly lighter.
Under pressure it's better to feel the cue-ball more, not less.
I move the cue-ball just as much, it just has a "heavier" look to it.....like Efren, we that use TOI have a cue-ball that appears to float with very little "after contact" spin. Efren described it to me as the "NO SPIN" technique.....whatever you choose to call it the feeling will always be a slightly heavier cue-ball (they're only 6 ozs) and when you spin the cue-ball it will feel slightly lighter.
Under pressure it's better to feel the cue-ball more, not less.
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I understand what you are saying here completely CJ, especially from watching you play. That doesn't change how valuable it is though. Thank you very much for sharing this!!
it's a series of actions and opposite reactions.
For many years everyone in pool that wasn't on the "inside loop" though you should use "outside english" on most shots......and it does seem "logical," however, so does a lot of other things in pool that don't get highly effective results.
This example is much like fading the ball in golf, when in many cases drawing the ball is better (to maximize margin of error). The 'Touch of Inside" technique is definitely unnusual, and I would doubt if too many players would stumble on it by themselves. I'm not sure how far back it can be traced, Luther Lassiter is the oldest player I've heard of that used a technique favoring the "No Spin" (after contact) or TOI method.
"if it seems right, it's probably wrong" is true......playing great pool is a paradox in many ways. Golf is the same way, it's a series of actions and opposite reactions. 'The Inside Game is the Teacher'
For many years everyone in pool that wasn't on the "inside loop" though you should use "outside english" on most shots......and it does seem "logical," however, so does a lot of other things in pool that don't get highly effective results.
This example is much like fading the ball in golf, when in many cases drawing the ball is better (to maximize margin of error). The 'Touch of Inside" technique is definitely unnusual, and I would doubt if too many players would stumble on it by themselves. I'm not sure how far back it can be traced, Luther Lassiter is the oldest player I've heard of that used a technique favoring the "No Spin" (after contact) or TOI method.
"if it seems right, it's probably wrong" is true......playing great pool is a paradox in many ways. Golf is the same way, it's a series of actions and opposite reactions. 'The Inside Game is the Teacher'
TOI is really strong playing banks (Vernon Elliot was the master).
The best is yet to come.
That "long nagging question" has been ask for many years and I always dodged the topic. People used to comment that I was "doing something different" when addressing the cue-ball, and no one could figure it out.
TOI is really strong playing banks (Vernon Elliot
was the master).....in case you haven't noticed. The beauty of playing bank shots is it's ALL ABOUT ANGLES, so you can make any bank using TOI or pivoting of the Center OR Edge of the object ball.....no need for complicated calculations, the table's diamonds all connect to the TIP.....one tip equals one diamond playing "cross side" banks and one half tip equals one diamond playing "straight back" banks. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I do see the TOI frenzy on here from time to time and I'm guilty of it, too. My personal reasons for giving it this much attention are different than yours.
I hung out with the guys who were using it years ago. I even went on the road with them and they never showed it to me.I, like an idiot, never realized what they were doing. Up until a year or so ago, I was talking about it with a pro friend/author from time to time (over 20 years). When CJ let it out, a long nagging question had been answered.
I just wish I'd had this info when I started playing. I used outside for everything. Now, I've had to start all over, again. So, I like to read tips that help me figure this out. That's all. Leave it in peace if you don't agree and push on with your search. It's that simple.
Best,
Mike
If nobody wants to use it, that leaves just me. Oh, well!
The best is yet to come.
That "long nagging question" has been ask for many years and I always dodged the topic. People used to comment that I was "doing something different" when addressing the cue-ball, and no one could figure it out.
TOI is really strong playing banks (Vernon Elliot
The best is yet to come.
That "long nagging question" has been ask for many years and I always dodged the topic. People used to comment that I was "doing something different" when addressing the cue-ball, and no one could figure it out.
TOI is really strong playing banks (Vernon Elliotwas the master).....in case you haven't noticed. The beauty of playing bank shots is it's ALL ABOUT ANGLES, so you can make any bank using TOI or pivoting of the Center OR Edge of the object ball.....no need for complicated calculations, the table's diamonds all connect to the TIP.....one tip equals one diamond playing "cross side" banks and one half tip equals one diamond playing "straight back" banks. 'The Game is the Teacher'
You weren't the only one who dodged the question. :grin: I got answers like...look at the top of the ball (possibly like your center to center reference point), or... if it looks wrong, shoot it anyway, or...you have to put spin on every shot, short stoke it with spin, etc.
These were cryptic and today I would understand more about these directions. Back then everything was by word of mouth. Banking was rumored to be better with inside than outside, but nobody would confirm this. I remember Bobby Cotton showing me some strong banks to avoid double kisses. He was doing something on every stroke which included a TOI type technique. I never put 2 and 2 together despite it being right in front of my face. I was a pool player, after all. :grin:
Your TIPS banking system simplifies things. It's not for TOI users only. It uses inside and outside spin and whatever is needed to make the bank. I've used it for a week or so along with a couple other systems and it definitely has increased my banking and safety play. I've been controlling the object ball much better and hiding it more. It'll be another tool in my box.
Best,
Mike
Banks
Banned
This topic's a little more dear to my heart..
Here's some more information on banking with a Tad Of Inside from somebody else that I think has made a few shots before, too.
Vernon and "Bugs" were the first ones I ever saw that created the angles with TIP
Yes, it's funny, the TIP Banking Video is probably the most in-depth one I've ever made. It's advanced, and still easy to learn.....it has 43 chapters and covers most every type bank that comes up in one-pocket, 9-Ball, and 8-Ball. (banks is a given) Every bank is made by shifting the TIP in a specific way to create the banking angle so you're free to concentrate on cue-ball placement.
Early today I gave a gentleman a 2 hour TIP Banking lesson, and a 3 Hour one tonight 6-9 to another avid player. It's amazing how quickly someone can improve when they understand how the TIP connects to the diamonds and angles of a pool table. We have drills that train the subconscious to recognize a new dimension of the game that many are not familiar with. - "we only recognize what we're familiar with".
The geometry of a pool table is complete, and what many people don't "real eyes" is the key to is the straight line of the cue and the sphere shape of the balls. This is what makes the cue ball a microcosm of the table {so to speak} and you can make any shot aligning to either Center/Edge and simply moving your TIP (by either parallel shift [TOI] or pivoting).
Vernon and "Bugs" were the first ones I ever saw that created the angles of the banks by using the TIP.....it took me several years to understand what they were actually doing.....Tony Fargo was the one that shed light on the subject (in a $700 one hour lesson) and "enlightened me". 'The TIP is the Teacher'
Yes, it's funny, the TIP Banking Video is probably the most in-depth one I've ever made. It's advanced, and still easy to learn.....it has 43 chapters and covers most every type bank that comes up in one-pocket, 9-Ball, and 8-Ball. (banks is a given) Every bank is made by shifting the TIP in a specific way to create the banking angle so you're free to concentrate on cue-ball placement.
Early today I gave a gentleman a 2 hour TIP Banking lesson, and a 3 Hour one tonight 6-9 to another avid player. It's amazing how quickly someone can improve when they understand how the TIP connects to the diamonds and angles of a pool table. We have drills that train the subconscious to recognize a new dimension of the game that many are not familiar with. - "we only recognize what we're familiar with".
The geometry of a pool table is complete, and what many people don't "real eyes" is the key to is the straight line of the cue and the sphere shape of the balls. This is what makes the cue ball a microcosm of the table {so to speak} and you can make any shot aligning to either Center/Edge and simply moving your TIP (by either parallel shift [TOI] or pivoting).
Vernon and "Bugs" were the first ones I ever saw that created the angles of the banks by using the TIP.....it took me several years to understand what they were actually doing.....Tony Fargo was the one that shed light on the subject (in a $700 one hour lesson) and "enlightened me". 'The TIP is the Teacher'
I've been watching Keith play on you tube all night. His position play is very similar to what I've been doing with TOI. As he moves around the table, I think what I would do and he does it most of the time (only better).
The shots he misses are usually borderline between using TOI or outside. I can tell he knows it by his body english. :grin-square: I find it interesting because I can see new patterns with TOI and speed control. He uses the rails to kill his ball or create angles out of nothing.
It's gratifying to know a guy of his caliber is using the same stroke and position play. I learned a couple of new shots and strategies and I can also see how he pins the cue ball to get around the table. His grip and bridge constantly change with his speed and spin. That part I'm still thinking about.
Best,
Mike
The shots he misses are usually borderline between using TOI or outside. I can tell he knows it by his body english. :grin-square: I find it interesting because I can see new patterns with TOI and speed control. He uses the rails to kill his ball or create angles out of nothing.
It's gratifying to know a guy of his caliber is using the same stroke and position play. I learned a couple of new shots and strategies and I can also see how he pins the cue ball to get around the table. His grip and bridge constantly change with his speed and spin. That part I'm still thinking about.
Best,
Mike
Being able to utilize your hand/wrist to generate quick acceleration
Keith does have some unusual fundamentals that originated from playing at such a young age. I presume this is why his wrist is cocked the way it is, although I believe it's an advantage for some players. Being able to utilize your hand/wrist to generate quick acceleration is certainly beneficial.
Keith does have some unusual fundamentals that originated from playing at such a young age. I presume this is why his wrist is cocked the way it is, although I believe it's an advantage for some players. Being able to utilize your hand/wrist to generate quick acceleration is certainly beneficial.