"Think three balls ahead" is horrible advice.

[ShootingArts]

the zone

Yes, it's like if you were looking "two cars ahead" you wouldn't count the car you're in. The system is simple, you play the shot that's real (the one you are shooting) in a way to get an angle on the next ball (visualize) to get on the next one.....anything more than that is unnecessary.

At a certain level of play you must trust the subconscious training that you've went through.....and if you don't know how to train to "not think," then read 'Zen in the Art of Archery' or 'The Inner Game of Tennis' to "real eyes" how important "the zone" is to your highest performance level.

CJ,

Please explain to me what you consider the zone to be and how you stay in the zone when you have to think about adding another ball to the pattern after every shot.

Hu

 

[CJ Wiley]

there are two references to "zones," one is a state of mind

'The Zone' is when your brain waves lower from Beta to Alpha and there's a feeling of being connected to an activity. Many people will experience this while driving, and describe it as a sense of timelessness, or a "zen state of being".

These types of meditative states require controlled breathing....actually connecting your conscious mind to the breathe so the subconscious can be engaged to control the cue ball in ways you may have only dreamed possible.

This will sound "far out" to those that have limited experience, if so, it's okay to "put it on a shelf" and keep an open mind....someday it may {very well} make sense.

When you're "thinking about adding another ball to the pattern after ever shot" you are probably not in the zone. When you are in the zone you will feel the connection of the upcoming balls and the need to analyze the situation will be diminished.

It does very little good to predict three shots ahead if you struggle to control the cue ball, so strive to make this your number one priority in practice and diligent training.

This brings about another type of "zone," and that's the position zones that are used to stay on "the right side of the object ball for easier position on the next shot". So there are two references to "zones," one is a state of mind and the other one deals with creating and maximizing margin of error.

Both zones are critical to performing well, and since pool is more of a "touch" game it's often beneficial to experience becoming absorbed into the game......and virtually "becoming the cue ball" (mentally).

The practice of meditation, martial arts, and zen are effective ways to experience and build one's ability to enter "the zone"....and greatly enhance anyone's health & well being. 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

Please explain to me what you consider the zone to be and how you stay in the zone when you have to think about adding another ball to the pattern after every shot.

Hu

 

[Johnnyt]

Believe it or not - most people take things too literally and unless step upon step is explained they'll fail to grasp the concept.

As some others have said - if you tell someone to think three balls ahead (while omitting doing that after every shot) then people will literally play well for three shots then go... "Ohhh f***. What do I do now?"

Sometimes you can't leave sequential steps to implication when teaching others.

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2

You're right. I should have been more clear in my original post. Johnnyt

 

[The Renfro]

Interesting discussion.... I know that currently I am struggling playing rotation based games and thought process is the culprit but it's hard to shake... I can play 8-ball and run out the majority of my racks and maintain my position to stay in my patterns but as soon as I switch to 9 or 10 ball I end u wrong sided, straight in or too thin and go from winning 90% of the games to being 50/50 with the same players... I think in 9 and 10ball the zonal position style I use ends up letting me down because I am not playing pinpoint positions like I bear down and do in 8ball because I am playing the whole rack and not just a few balls ahead... 14.1 I usually see 5-6 balls ahead when working thru... Something about the rotation games seems to keep me from engaging the same part of my mind than the other 2 games....
I do use the 3 ball sequence in rotation so maybe it's time to try and see 5-6 ahead or maybe even the whole rack so I stay engaged......

 

[ShootingArts]

zones

'The Zone' is when your brain waves lower from Beta to Alpha and there's a feeling of being connected to an activity. Many people will experience this while driving, and describe it as a sense of timelessness, or a "zen state of being".

These types of meditative states require controlled breathing....actually connecting your conscious mind to the breathe so the subconscious can be engaged to control the cue ball in ways you may have only dreamed possible.

This will sound "far out" to those that have limited experience, if so, it's okay to "put it on a shelf" and keep an open mind....someday it may {very well} make sense.

When you're "thinking about adding another ball to the pattern after ever shot" you are probably not in the zone. When you are in the zone you will feel the connection of the upcoming balls and the need to analyze the situation will be diminished.

It does very little good to predict three shots ahead if you struggle to control the cue ball, so strive to make this your number one priority in practice and diligent training. Solid gold here!(hu)

This brings about another type of "zone," and that's the position zones that are used to stay on "the right side of the object ball for easier position on the next shot". So there are two references to "zones," one is a state of mind and the other one deals with creating and maximizing margin of error.

Both zones are critical to performing well, and since pool is more of a "touch" game it's often beneficial to experience becoming absorbed into the game......and virtually "becoming the cue ball" (mentally).

The practice of meditation, martial arts, and zen are effective ways to experience and build one's ability to enter "the zone"....and greatly enhance anyone's health & well being. 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

I spent several years focusing intently on cue ball control. Generally the cue ball travels further than the object ball and position is the harder part of the shot. Pocketing balls becomes pretty much a given when you reach the level of control of the cue ball that you start playing spot position instead of zones. A large part of it is a shift in perspective, for the first five years more or less I was playing for zone position and with the much bigger target area I still missed position sometimes.

When I started trying to play spot shape instead of zone shape I was striving for a far smaller target most of the time. However, it rarely mattered if I missed a few inches, I was still well within "zone position". As Mel said in the movie and many a rifle shooter has said, "aim small, miss small". We all often play spot position when playing safeties, extending that to playing spot position all the time isn't really that big a deal and of course your safetly play soars.

The mental zone is far more interesting although it sounds like hokum to those that haven't been there. The first book I read that delved into zones was by J Michael Plaxco, "Shooting From Within". He is a many times champion pistol competitor but the information concerning the mental game carries over from any form of competition just like we read tennis and golf books.

We can focus on breathing or a mantra to tie up the upper level of thought but there is a zone beyond that one where we are taking in far more information than we receive normally. Senses are many times more acute. It would seem all of this information pouring in would be a nightmare but we effortlessly sort it and only take the information we need for the moment while storing the rest for future use.

It is far easier to enter the zone in longer term activities such as circle track racing. Tough to enter the zone or stay in it shooting pool because of the frequent interruptions to rack if nothing else. Having the entire inning planned in advance gives a longer uninterrupted time to find the zone compared to breaking flow after every shot to plan further. I do agree that once in the zone this can become effortless, getting in the zone to begin with is the tough part. Of course once in the zone you probably see the entire pattern instead of adding one shot at a time.

Seems we have many more areas of agreement than the small area of disagreement concerning planning ahead. I think planning the whole inning is easier than the rolling three approach. Pretty sure neither of us are going to change our position on that! :grin:


Hu

 

[CJ Wiley]

"if the cue ball doesn't go where I want, it always goes somewhere better" - CJ Wiley

Mentally, it's not easy, or natural to think about stopping a ball on a flat surface. This is not only difficult, it lacks clear, concise direction for our minds to connect and perform..

I find it best to visualize in terms of always going towards a solid target first.

It's like when backing down a long, narrow drive way it's difficult to stay on the road (especially with any speed) while focusing on the road.......Instead, it's beneficial to pick a target in the distance directly behind the road, like a tree, telephone pole, mail box, and back DIRECTLY at this "target," and, in doing this process you'll back directly down the drive way with no thought of the drive way......this is a very close analogy to what I do playing pool, although the "tree" is the diamonds (I never use a pocket for obvious reasons).

Once you complete the visualization of the cue ball going towards a solid target (the diamond), then you can retrace to where you actually want the cue ball to stop......this fully completes the amount of information your mind needs to subconsciously put the cue ball where you wish......and as I tell people "if the cue ball doesn't go where I want, it always goes somewhere better" - this is a good mind set to have, and remember, there are no "bad shots," only shots that we can learn something new from to improve.

'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

I spent several years focusing intently on cue ball control. Generally the cue ball travels further than the object ball and position is the harder part of the shot. Pocketing balls becomes pretty much a given when you reach the level of control of the cue ball that you start playing spot position instead of zones. A large part of it is a shift in perspective, for the first five years more or less I was playing for zone position and with the much bigger target area I still missed position sometimes.

When I started trying to play spot shape instead of zone shape I was striving for a far smaller target most of the time. However, it rarely mattered if I missed a few inches, I was still well within "zone position". As Mel said in the movie and many a rifle shooter has said, "aim small, miss small". We all often play spot position when playing safeties, extending that to playing spot position all the time isn't really that big a deal and of course your safetly play soars.

 

[justadub]

Interesting discussion.... I know that currently I am struggling playing rotation based games and thought process is the culprit but it's hard to shake... I can play 8-ball and run out the majority of my racks and maintain my position to stay in my patterns but as soon as I switch to 9 or 10 ball I end u wrong sided, straight in or too thin and go from winning 90% of the games to being 50/50 with the same players... I think in 9 and 10ball the zonal position style I use ends up letting me down because I am not playing pinpoint positions like I bear down and do in 8ball because I am playing the whole rack and not just a few balls ahead... 14.1 I usually see 5-6 balls ahead when working thru... Something about the rotation games seems to keep me from engaging the same part of my mind than the other 2 games....
I do use the 3 ball sequence in rotation so maybe it's time to try and see 5-6 ahead or maybe even the whole rack so I stay engaged......

This is very interesting, Chris, as it mirrors my experience as well. Albeit at a much more rudimentary skill level

I can play 8-ball and not "have to think" much if at all during an inning, the path takes care of itself. Perhaps having multiple options helps me with that.

Yet when playing 9-ball I find myself struggling mentally far too much.

I play 9 tonight. I'm going to try and "not think" but just go play the table, and see if I have better results

 

[mikeyfrost]

How did this nonsense thread make it 6 pages you obviously have to shoot the ball you are on, to get on the next ball with a way to the following ball and do that every shot...this is ridiculous

 

[CJ Wiley]

cue ball control playing "two way shots" was vital

8 Ball and 9/10 ball are different in the type of "mind set" used....14.1 as well.

In 8 Ball you must be more "cue ball focused," and in 9 Ball you need to be more "object ball focused" - this doesn't mean you don't focus on the other aspects, it's just a matter of priority.

People that play 9 Ball to get "pin point position" will mentally exhaust themselves and most likely start missing shots. When the game was "Two Shot Shoot Out" the emphasis was much more on the shot making although cue ball control playing "two way shots" was vital to win against champion caliber players like Sigel, and Hopkins.

Interesting discussion.... I know that currently I am struggling playing rotation based games and thought process is the culprit but it's hard to shake... I can play 8-ball and run out the majority of my racks and maintain my position to stay in my patterns but as soon as I switch to 9 or 10 ball I end u wrong sided, straight in or too thin and go from winning 90% of the games to being 50/50 with the same players... I think in 9 and 10ball the zonal position style I use ends up letting me down because I am not playing pinpoint positions like I bear down and do in 8ball because I am playing the whole rack and not just a few balls ahead... 14.1 I usually see 5-6 balls ahead when working thru... Something about the rotation games seems to keep me from engaging the same part of my mind than the other 2 games....
I do use the 3 ball sequence in rotation so maybe it's time to try and see 5-6 ahead or maybe even the whole rack so I stay engaged......

 

[nobcitypool]

The saying in the military is no battle plan survives the first shot. However, that doesn't mean they don't do a substantial amount of planning with contingency planning for things most likely, or possible, to go wrong. As usual with CJ, there has to be some Zen stuff thrown in while all along, in essence, he's not saying you don't plan your shots. I can't tell for sure, but I think he's saying to not over think things and don't get so married to your original plan that you lose it mentally when the plan goes awry and you have to rethink things. I think he's also saying to not get so focused on the plan that you lose focus, even slightly, with the shot at hand. That makes perfect sense.

I also think CJ sometimes talks a different language as he is talking from a top professional's perspective. Their ability to casually and consistently make shots, that the average player struggles with a bit (or a lot), while also getting position with the CB is not something us mere mortals think about. So even though the professionals have incredibly superior CB control, they can also most often operate hitting that next shot from the zone while us mere mortals often try to be too perfect. I know as my own shotmaking skills have improved, I most often am just concerned about getting the CB to an area rather than a "spot". Perhaps this isn't the correct thinking, I believe it is, but I'm most often thinking of which side of the ball I want to get on and subsequently thinking, if I miss, I want to error on the harder or softer, whichever assures me of getting on the right side of the next shot.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the game is already perfect, we just need to recognize and uncover that perfection.

At some point we have to make a commitment to either "do what the table layout tells us to do," or "make the table layout do what we want to it to do". Of course there's exceptions and those are usually obvious to a seasoned player.

The beginner will see many choices in any given table layout - the advanced player will see a few - the champion player will see only one....sometimes two

On every shot I already know which side of center (cue ball) I'm contacting.

I know approximately what shot speed I'll be using.

I know that the shot's angle will be created off "Center/Center," or "Center/Edge" alignment......this choice is often obvious, and does take practice to "program" the shots and make them familiar to our recognition (this ends up being subconscious).

These things I already know BEFORE I even look at the next shot's position. Of course there's times when I'll notice balls tied up, or some unusual circumstances. Through years of playing I know for sure there's always a shot that will present it's self......and the less I try to "force it" the better off I usually am.

"Many players need to "real eyes" the game is already perfect, we just have to recognize and uncover that perfection". - CJ Wiley

Understanding how this process works is "the difference that makes a huge difference" in the way someone relates to the game of pool. This poses the question "do we express ourselves through the game, or does the game express it's self through us?"

'The Game is my Teacher'

The saying in the military is no battle plan survives the first shot. However, that doesn't mean they don't do a substantial amount of planning with contingency planning for things most likely, or possible, to go wrong. As usual with CJ, there has to be some Zen stuff thrown in while all along, in essence, he's not saying you don't plan your shots. I can't tell for sure, but I think he's saying to not over think things and don't get so married to your original plan that you lose it mentally when the plan goes awry and you have to rethink things. I think he's also saying to not get so focused on the plan that you lose focus, even slightly, with the shot at hand. That makes perfect sense.

I also think CJ sometimes talks a different language as he is talking from a top professional's perspective. Their ability to casually and consistently make shots, that the average player struggles with a bit (or a lot), while also getting position with the CB is not something us mere mortals think about. So even though the professionals have incredibly superior CB control, they can also most often operate hitting that next shot from the zone while us mere mortals often try to be too perfect. I know as my own shotmaking skills have improved, I most often am just concerned about getting the CB to an area rather than a "spot". Perhaps this isn't the correct thinking, I believe it is, but I'm most often thinking of which side of the ball I want to get on and subsequently thinking, if I miss, I want to error on the harder or softer, whichever assures me of getting on the right side of the next shot.

 

[ScottK]

How did this nonsense thread make it 6 pages you obviously have to shoot the ball you are on, to get on the next ball with a way to the following ball and do that every shot...this is ridiculous

Maybe what's ridiculous is that you can't understand how it made six pages... well, seven.

 

[mikeyfrost]

I feel like I could get banned today but this thread is the definition of why pool in the usa is what it is.

 

[ScottK]

I feel like I could get banned today but this thread is the definition of why pool in the usa is what it is.

You may find this surprising, but I agree.

 

[FranCrimi]

Here's an interesting article about the minds of top athletes and their decision making processes:



The link posting feature doesn't seem to be working for me so just copy and paste the address.

I am more than thrilled to be a citizen of and to live in the USA!! I'll fade comments about pool in the USA any day compared to other countries where 'freedom' is a very subjective word --- even in several EUROPEAN communities.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's 15 people reading these posts and 8 of them know how to play

There's 15 people reading these posts and 8 of them know how to play pool. That's over 50%, which is outstanding if you think about it.

Believe it or not - most people take things too literally and unless step upon step is explained they'll fail to grasp the concept.

As some others have said - if you tell someone to think three balls ahead (while omitting doing that after every shot) then people will literally play well for three shots then go... "Ohhh f***. What do I do now?"

Sometimes you can't leave sequential steps to implication when teaching others.

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2

 

[Mikjary]

The only time I worry about thinking three balls ahead is when I have to break out a ball or the object ball has only a small position zone where it can be shot to a pocket.

If the balls (9/10 ball) are spread out and open, I really don't make too much fuss about which side of the ball I'm on for position. Unless a route is cut off, I'll take an extra rail to get where I need to be. In 8 ball, one pocket, or straights, which side of the ball you're on is a lot more important. Otherwise you're constantly changing your pattern.

Rotation games are pretty straight forward. You shoot the ball into the closest pocket. If it's in the center of the table, you have a choice. By the time you're on the 5 ball, the pattern should be set up for you. Unless you've got tight quarters or a ball is tied up, you play position to shoot to the closest hole or the simplest position. I try not to overthink this. After all, I'm a pool player. Our brains are worth more on the black market and for alien abductions, because they've got lower mileage.

Best,
Mike

 

[ShootingArts]

smarts don't trump skills

The only time I worry about thinking three balls ahead is when I have to break out a ball or the object ball has only a small position zone where it can be shot to a pocket.

If the balls (9/10 ball) are spread out and open, I really don't make too much fuss about which side of the ball I'm on for position. Unless a route is cut off, I'll take an extra rail to get where I need to be. In 8 ball, one pocket, or straights, which side of the ball you're on is a lot more important. Otherwise you're constantly changing your pattern.

Rotation games are pretty straight forward. You shoot the ball into the closest pocket. If it's in the center of the table, you have a choice. By the time you're on the 5 ball, the pattern should be set up for you. Unless you've got tight quarters or a ball is tied up, you play position to shoot to the closest hole or the simplest position. I try not to overthink this. After all, I'm a pool player. Our brains are worth more on the black market and for alien abductions, because they've got lower mileage. View attachment 343354

Best,
Mike

Mike,

I agreed to help a friend make a dollar swapping transmissions on a couple of eighteen wheelers out in the gravel where they died. I knew Bobby wasn't a rocket scientist but he was a friend. After a day or two of this we stopped for a beer one evening in a bar with a couple pool tables. Bobby ran out from the other player's dry break the first time then seven more times dead cold and using a ratty cue off the wall.

I would have bet even money on Bobby being able to spell pool but would have needed very good odds and multiple tries for Bobby to try spelling billiards. He didn't know a thing about how to play pool, he just ran out like water. I told him we had had enough fun with the trucks, loaded him up and went for a ride two days later.

Hu

 

[CJ Wiley]

Changing patterns is much more difficult (without the "bail out areas").

That's right, for the most part 2 balls ahead is plenty.....like I said before, many people would be amazed how tough it is for a champion player to even predict two shots ahead, let alone three. They change their run out patterns, and if we took out the side pockets it would make this much more difficult (without the "bail out areas").

The only time I worry about thinking three balls ahead is when I have to break out a ball or the object ball has only a small position zone where it can be shot to a pocket.

If the balls (9/10 ball) are spread out and open, I really don't make too much fuss about which side of the ball I'm on for position. Unless a route is cut off, I'll take an extra rail to get where I need to be. In 8 ball, one pocket, or straights, which side of the ball you're on is a lot more important. Otherwise you're constantly changing your pattern.

Rotation games are pretty straight forward. You shoot the ball into the closest pocket. If it's in the center of the table, you have a choice. By the time you're on the 5 ball, the pattern should be set up for you. Unless you've got tight quarters or a ball is tied up, you play position to shoot to the closest hole or the simplest position. I try not to overthink this. After all, I'm a pool player. Our brains are worth more on the black market and for alien abductions, because they've got lower mileage. View attachment 343354

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Mike,

I agreed to help a friend make a dollar swapping transmissions on a couple of eighteen wheelers out in the gravel where they died. I knew Bobby wasn't a rocket scientist but he was a friend. After a day or two of this we stopped for a beer one evening in a bar with a couple pool tables. Bobby ran out from the other player's dry break the first time then seven more times dead cold and using a ratty cue off the wall.

I would have bet even money on Bobby being able to spell pool but would have needed very good odds and multiple tries for Bobby to try spelling billiards. He didn't know a thing about how to play pool, he just ran out like water. I told him we had had enough fun with the trucks, loaded him up and went for a ride two days later.

Hu

Hu,

Glad to have you posting, again! I think :smile: that those who've got an uncluttered mind may have the edge in this game. Your friend, Bobby in a simple way, may have had the answer we dismiss as too easy...don't think, just play!

Best,
Mike