I have never heard an instructor on here say that pros can't teach. I have heard them say many times that just because someone plays at a pro level does not necessarily make them a good teacher. It takes a certain skill set to be able to teach effectively, and not everyone has that. I have also heard the same people list certain pros who they thought were very good teachers.
Pool teaching philosophy
- Thread starter Straightpool_99
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I have never heard an instructor on here say that pros can't teach. I have heard them say many times that just because someone plays at a pro level does not necessarily make them a good teacher. It takes a certain skill set to be able to teach effectively, and not everyone has that. I have also heard the same people list certain pros who they thought were very good teachers.
Personally I find there are basically 2 kinds of pool players that are serious about their games.
Some are very receptive to learning from someone else. They soak up as much knowledge as possible and aren't afraid to ask a better player, instructor, or pro for some help. They have an open mind and are ready to learn from anyone, something that might improve their game.
Some are stubborn, hard headed, and you can't tell them a thing. They know everything and have a million excuses why things went to shit, other than their shot selection, fundamentals, and execution suck. They know better than anyone else, even those that are miles above their skill level.
Some are very receptive to learning from someone else. They soak up as much knowledge as possible and aren't afraid to ask a better player, instructor, or pro for some help. They have an open mind and are ready to learn from anyone, something that might improve their game.
Some are stubborn, hard headed, and you can't tell them a thing. They know everything and have a million excuses why things went to shit, other than their shot selection, fundamentals, and execution suck. They know better than anyone else, even those that are miles above their skill level.
Do you understand how many folks play major league baseball, NFL, NHL, or NBA that did NOT have a former professional player coach them until they actually made it to their chosen league ??
The played and were coached since they were five, and at each level most likely got better coaching, then HS, then college, and still very FEW professional athletes teach at this level, yep somehow they made it to the pro's... ??
Yet, pool, which is NOT all that tough of a sport, actually, it was rated somewhere below bowling and fishing, MUST have professional level players teaching others how to play the rather simple game that is rated below cheerleading? LOL
As would be expected, different pros have different ideas about what it takes. There was a thread a few years ago on here where a few pros chimed in regarding the question of how they got where they were. Most pros said they never had a lot if instruction, but thought they would have gotten where they were much faster if they did have a good teacher. Others say they just matched up and spent a lot of time on the table with other great players, and that's all you need. Obviously both are right, but what worked for one pro may not have been the right scenario for another. Because of that, I listen to what each of them has to say and am willing to try the advice they have to offer, but I also understand that not everything that works for one person works for another, even the pros.
I would argue ALL day with Albert Bell on how to teach your kids to hit a baseball. He had the worse "hitting" mechanics that I've ever seen. However, his hands were so quick, he could get away with it. I've never seen anyone else play MLB and get away with it... usually, they would be toast in the minors with his mechanics....
But he could do it, and thus why nobody changed him. He was that talented. So, yeah, I would tell him he was wrong if he ever tried to teach his 'way" to kids......
I see value to both sides of the discussion here. I definitely agree that there is significant value in learning from someone who has experienced the sport at a high level, and feel there may be certain things they do that the average player does not know of. However, I also agree with the idea stated above that there can be strong value in learning from coaches that haven't played professionally. I see a strong example in the life of my mother. Ever since I can remember, my mom has coached and taught tumbling or gymnastics. While she did compete some when she was younger, she never performed at an elite level. Most of her higher level knowledge about the sport came from other top level coaches (although not pros themselves) that she worked under when she first started coaching. She also worked hard to consistently better herself as a coach. Currently she owns her own tumbling and trampoline gym. Her teams have won the overall team national title something like 9 of the last 12 years, and every year, her gym produces several national champions. Her top athlete just took 5th in the men's open division at the World's in tumbling, and 6th in double mini (a trampoline event). She has always had a natural ability to teach and break down how to perform different skills, teach and maintain discipline in her gym, and an inherent ability to inspire confidence in her students as athletes and as people, and it has lead her athletes to repeated success. Besides that, she was also voted by her peers as the 2002 and 2011 national coach of the year.
My father always taught me to be a coachable athlete, and that worked well for me. I certainly value the input of players like John Brumback and C.J., and appreciate the tips, info and experience related knowledge they are willing to share, but I also believe that others who love and pursue the game may have valuable knowledge that can help me improve from where I am now.
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Exceptions do occur, but instructors rarely have enough "perception" of the game if they haven't reached at least around "B" level.
Most of the successful coaches I've seen in several sports were not the "top" athletes in their time but they were definitely good athletes, that had also studied coaching at the same time.
Haven't seen any statistics about this, just my personal experience.
Petros
Most of the successful coaches I've seen in several sports were not the "top" athletes in their time but they were definitely good athletes, that had also studied coaching at the same time.
Haven't seen any statistics about this, just my personal experience.
Petros
B level isn't enough. Unless they have some physical handicaps, someone with sufficient knowledge of the game should have reached the level of an A or probably even higher. Being primarily a mental game, the level you can reach with knowledge alone is much higher than more physical sports.
I think it's a mix of both. We now have tens of thousands of hours of high quality professional play to study for free. Add in dozens of hours of footage of players from previous eras. Couple that with a lot of advances in understanding the physics of the game and a lot of professional and semi-professional instructors and the aspiring pool student has enough information to get as good as their motivation will carry them.
I think instructors who are not top professional players are missing the view from the top. I am a professional case maker and even though I am not a professional leather worker I have a certain amount of perspective gained through solid experience that other hobby casemakers simply don't have. Doesn't mean they can't be good at what they do it simply means that I am at another level that they can't talk about with any real experience to back it up.
My thought is that just as water always finds it's level so do top level players always find out what works. You have to in order to become a top player. What works doesn't always look what is thought to be the "right" way to play from the lower perspective. From an amateur point of view, even for GOOD amateurs, they cannot know why people above them, pros, are able to be so consistent when they themselves are not. They can guess, they can speculate but until they have gone through the same process they won't actually know it.
What is that process? Experience and competition, training more, matching up more, learning and absorbing more, and simply an unwavering drive to master the table. So if you don't have that drive then you are left with doing whatever you can to improve your game using whatever resources are available.
And there are a lot of resources now. A lot of people competing for your attention. The only group not competing for your attention are the very elite pros who are busy doing. Although they have also put out instructionals as is expected of them at some point in their careers.
My thinking on this is that everyone has something of value to offer. No one is out there trying to make players worse on purpose. Pool being a results oriented game will teach you what is working and what is not if you let it. Get up there and try to run ten banks, try to run 100, try to beat the ghost in 9/10 ball, this will tell you where you are and give you a target.
As for the idea of copying the pro's form and delivery, well......yeah of course you should if you see something that appeals to you. But you might not be ready for it, you might be copying without a solid foundation to work from and then what?
My thought is that every professional player started out as a know-nothing banger. At some point some instructor or some decent amateur got them started on the bridge, the stroke, the stance etc...pretty much as it's taught in books....from there that player's internal drive took over and he began copying and adapting what he saw and what was done to him so that he could do it to others. So all of it together is what makes it work. We need the instructors who are rigid in their "textbook" ways and we need the just-do-it pros who break out of the standard way to transcend into a higher level to aspire to.
I think instructors who are not top professional players are missing the view from the top. I am a professional case maker and even though I am not a professional leather worker I have a certain amount of perspective gained through solid experience that other hobby casemakers simply don't have. Doesn't mean they can't be good at what they do it simply means that I am at another level that they can't talk about with any real experience to back it up.
My thought is that just as water always finds it's level so do top level players always find out what works. You have to in order to become a top player. What works doesn't always look what is thought to be the "right" way to play from the lower perspective. From an amateur point of view, even for GOOD amateurs, they cannot know why people above them, pros, are able to be so consistent when they themselves are not. They can guess, they can speculate but until they have gone through the same process they won't actually know it.
What is that process? Experience and competition, training more, matching up more, learning and absorbing more, and simply an unwavering drive to master the table. So if you don't have that drive then you are left with doing whatever you can to improve your game using whatever resources are available.
And there are a lot of resources now. A lot of people competing for your attention. The only group not competing for your attention are the very elite pros who are busy doing. Although they have also put out instructionals as is expected of them at some point in their careers.
My thinking on this is that everyone has something of value to offer. No one is out there trying to make players worse on purpose. Pool being a results oriented game will teach you what is working and what is not if you let it. Get up there and try to run ten banks, try to run 100, try to beat the ghost in 9/10 ball, this will tell you where you are and give you a target.
As for the idea of copying the pro's form and delivery, well......yeah of course you should if you see something that appeals to you. But you might not be ready for it, you might be copying without a solid foundation to work from and then what?
My thought is that every professional player started out as a know-nothing banger. At some point some instructor or some decent amateur got them started on the bridge, the stroke, the stance etc...pretty much as it's taught in books....from there that player's internal drive took over and he began copying and adapting what he saw and what was done to him so that he could do it to others. So all of it together is what makes it work. We need the instructors who are rigid in their "textbook" ways and we need the just-do-it pros who break out of the standard way to transcend into a higher level to aspire to.
Great post, John! In our "all or nothing" extremist society, it's nice to see a post of balance and moderation. Yes, there's value in all forms of education, and the "if you ain't playing top-shelf/pro-level pool, then I have no use for you or what you have to offer" is just foolishness.
Grab the knowledge from where you can, and especially pay attention to experience (not just tour experience, but experience in instruction as well). It's one thing to have the knowledge of what worked for a particular pro to get him/her to that level (which is a very myopic view). It's quite another to be able to diagnose problems and/or *know* what different styles and approaches are out there that work for people with different body types and physical abilities (which is knowledge that the professional instructor brings to the table that the mere pro player doesn't have).
At the same time, like you say, the pro has a "view from the top" that the instructor doesn't have. But you have to be ready for that knowledge, in terms of already-good-playing ability. Someone who is having problems consistently making long straight shots (someone who more than likely has issues with wonky fundamentals) is not going to benefit from a pro's very myopic view of the particular fundamentals that worked for him/her, and it's questionable that the "view from the top" info that the pro player possesses will have any effect on that student at this moment in time. Maybe later, yes, but not now.
-Sean
Grab the knowledge from where you can, and especially pay attention to experience (not just tour experience, but experience in instruction as well). It's one thing to have the knowledge of what worked for a particular pro to get him/her to that level (which is a very myopic view). It's quite another to be able to diagnose problems and/or *know* what different styles and approaches are out there that work for people with different body types and physical abilities (which is knowledge that the professional instructor brings to the table that the mere pro player doesn't have).
At the same time, like you say, the pro has a "view from the top" that the instructor doesn't have. But you have to be ready for that knowledge, in terms of already-good-playing ability. Someone who is having problems consistently making long straight shots (someone who more than likely has issues with wonky fundamentals) is not going to benefit from a pro's very myopic view of the particular fundamentals that worked for him/her, and it's questionable that the "view from the top" info that the pro player possesses will have any effect on that student at this moment in time. Maybe later, yes, but not now.
-Sean
It's all about the cue ball. The secret to the cue ball is through stroke,stroke technique/ stroke control, and playing within speed. This is how players make it look easy, they play in speed.
Any of the beginning stages of pool can be learned from a book or a click on the internet 10,000,000,000 times over.
I don't think you need an instructor to teach you how to stand, bridge, eyes, grips, etc.etc.etc., you can get that in a click of the mouse. You don't need an instructor to video tape you all day long, put your Iphone or gopro on a stand and film away. Earl sits in his stance (wrong) Sigel jumps up on every shot (wrong). they have a few titles. Listen, read, question,learn. THEN FIND YOUR NATURAL. I can take pics out of a book and say...you have to stand this way, move that foot more left.....OK, pay me $500
I will also say it can't hurt to pay for early lessons, good habits are good, as long as you pay cheap, and I mean cheap, dirt cheap.
Once you have the basics on a nice track you need and instructor that can perform all the strokes and teach them, and teach them to play in speed. Students learn better when they see the stroke performed rather than told how to do it. This is where you spend your money.
Anyone can hit the cue ball, hitting it properly in speed is another story. If the instructor can't do that, FIRE HIM
Fundamentals are important, I don't care if you are a robot fundamentally, without stroke, throw your cue in the fire pit, take up bowling.
It's all about the cue ball
Any of the beginning stages of pool can be learned from a book or a click on the internet 10,000,000,000 times over.
I don't think you need an instructor to teach you how to stand, bridge, eyes, grips, etc.etc.etc., you can get that in a click of the mouse. You don't need an instructor to video tape you all day long, put your Iphone or gopro on a stand and film away. Earl sits in his stance (wrong) Sigel jumps up on every shot (wrong). they have a few titles. Listen, read, question,learn. THEN FIND YOUR NATURAL. I can take pics out of a book and say...you have to stand this way, move that foot more left.....OK, pay me $500
I will also say it can't hurt to pay for early lessons, good habits are good, as long as you pay cheap, and I mean cheap, dirt cheap.
Once you have the basics on a nice track you need and instructor that can perform all the strokes and teach them, and teach them to play in speed. Students learn better when they see the stroke performed rather than told how to do it. This is where you spend your money.
Anyone can hit the cue ball, hitting it properly in speed is another story. If the instructor can't do that, FIRE HIM
Fundamentals are important, I don't care if you are a robot fundamentally, without stroke, throw your cue in the fire pit, take up bowling.
It's all about the cue ball
Well, of course instructors can play the game. Y'all thinking like they are just bangers,, they can shoot, draw, spin the cue, etc... just have different priorities. I teach teenagers how to hit a baseball 300 plus feet.
Yet, in my entire baseball career, I've not hit a single home run, and that is playing for 47 consecutive years of baseball (and still playing)
And if you wanna get your instruction out of a book, or video... cool. If you wanna talk to your buddies...cool. If you wanna just hit a million balls... cool. But if you need a more hands on approach, hire an instructor.. just as cool.
Just like baseball... some kids have natural ablity, and will need very little coaching to get to college, while others need a TON, but will still play college ball. No sport is one size fits all.
Plus, there is a place in Rockford called CUE U. Pro's were "begged and bribed" to come out and work with some students. Nothing doing. Never had one step up and come out. Meanwhile, thousands of students learned how to play the game, learn the mechanics, learn to jump, bank, kick, apply English. So, maybe we should thank instructors for providing the guidance to the students to keep interest in a game we ALL love........
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Having tried about everything throughout my pool life, I'd make a couple observations based upon my experiences.
It is your responsibility as a player to weed out the quality info from the garbage. You will get some of each equally from great players, instructors, or mediocre players.
You can never progress far past the players you have to play against. All the teaching in the world won't get you to beat someone who plays great competition every day, if you do not.
All pros may not look alike in form, but one thing they all have in common is they hit the ball smooth as glass. I am of the opinion that for the vast majority, that cannot be done with a short stroke/bridge. Why people try to teach that is beyond me. My game improves dramatically when my bridge/stroke are longer. I admit, making balls with poor form may be easier with that stroke w/less motion. But it isn't helping your long term game.
Have you ever gone to a pool tournament where great players were playing, stayed and watched the finals of that and then came home and saw your game pick up noticeably? Almost playing 'over your heat'? I have, several times. And I have asked friends to go to tournaments before just so they could see stronger players, only to see them come home and play better than they ever played before. Watching the pros works.
The mental aspect of the game is one that actually can be taught, but seldom is. You'd be surprised what a good talking-to can do to help someone get over the tough, important shots. "You can't buy this feeling in practice, enjoy it. It's what we play for. Turn it into something positive."
Filming yourself is the best learning tool you can ever have.
All jmho.
Never said do not go to an instructor, I did say it can't hurt to pay for early lessons, good habits are good, as long as you pay cheap, and I mean cheap, dirt cheap.
A handful of instructors I have seen are not that far above bangers, and I am not saying they can't teach you something. I am saying it's about the stroke, and an instructor that can perform and teach it to the fullest extent. Not some snake oil salesmaen who is going to change your life because they taught you a bridge,stance,bank shot, etc....that stuff is a dime a dozen anywhere on the planet.
Thousands of students? that is impressive. All that you mentioned is great, banks,mechanics,kick.english,jump. At what point do you teach them how to stroke in speed? I can teach a Monkey how to jump.
At what point do you teach them to play pool? the full extent and knowledge of the cue ball and the stroke? Does that come before or after the Jump.
Without the stroke and cue ball, what good is any of the other stuff?
To me it's useless, putting the cart before the horse in a sense.
Basic fundamentals....after that its all about the stroke,,,and the jumps and banks every now and then
What is an Advanced Instructor worth?
I agree that good solid Instruction from the fundamental standpoint is needed but what is it worth?
Recently I had decided I was going to contribute to someones back pocket to get a professional level lesson....when I got the price per hour....I was shocked and declined...obviously he thought he was worth it.
So tell me what do you guys thing Professional Instruction is worth and hour?
I agree that good solid Instruction from the fundamental standpoint is needed but what is it worth?
Recently I had decided I was going to contribute to someones back pocket to get a professional level lesson....when I got the price per hour....I was shocked and declined...obviously he thought he was worth it.
So tell me what do you guys thing Professional Instruction is worth and hour?
Interesting thoughts on necessity of instruction.
Instruction is important, and if in the future Pool includes coaches it will move on to a much higher competitive level...
Petros
Instruction is important, and if in the future Pool includes coaches it will move on to a much higher competitive level...
Petros
Everyone, and I mean everyone can use instruction. The very beat snooker players in the world have them, they still tinker with their cueing action even though they are at the highest level in their field. Others simply can't figure out how to correct a fault. I had a friend I've played with for years, he constantly hit with a little bit of left hand side. Not much, the CB would rotate between 90-360 degrees when hitting a straight stop shot for example. He did t for the life in him know how to rectify it, he tried all sorts of fixes but couldn't find one. He brought it up one day and I simply said to try twisting the torso out a little so the chest faced more outwards than to the floor. Fixed it instantly.
Sometimes another persons look on things can solve a lot of frustration, and I doesn't necessarily have to be a qualified instructor.
Sometimes another persons look on things can solve a lot of frustration, and I doesn't necessarily have to be a qualified instructor.
...............
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Like myself, Hank had many incredible mentors that expanded his knowledge
Hank won two majors in the same year (Masters and British Open) with Mark O'Meara. I had the opportunity to play with Mark at the Grand Opening of Hank's golf course in Texarkana (The Ranch) and learned some important techniques from Mark.......Hank and Mark worked together for many years before Tiger was on the scene. Mark and Tiger were best friends, so Tiger knew Hank was tapped into Mark's knowledge as well as several other Champion players.
Like myself, Hank had many incredible mentors that expanded his knowledge base. This, coupled with an obsession to learn, apply and practice these golfing principles made Hank one of the greatest sports minds of the modern age. Hank was also a really good pool student, we traded golf lessons for pool lessons for over 2 years.
Through Hank I learned some of the key "secrets" to the TOI and 3 Part Pocket System.......he also gave me a great compliment by including my teachings in his book about Tiger titled 'The Big Miss' - that was a totally unexpected surprise and he didn't tell me about it until it had been released.... there's more to the story I'll share at a later date.
'The Game is Our Teacher'
Hank won two majors in the same year (Masters and British Open) with Mark O'Meara. I had the opportunity to play with Mark at the Grand Opening of Hank's golf course in Texarkana (The Ranch) and learned some important techniques from Mark.......Hank and Mark worked together for many years before Tiger was on the scene. Mark and Tiger were best friends, so Tiger knew Hank was tapped into Mark's knowledge as well as several other Champion players.
Like myself, Hank had many incredible mentors that expanded his knowledge base. This, coupled with an obsession to learn, apply and practice these golfing principles made Hank one of the greatest sports minds of the modern age. Hank was also a really good pool student, we traded golf lessons for pool lessons for over 2 years.
Through Hank I learned some of the key "secrets" to the TOI and 3 Part Pocket System.......he also gave me a great compliment by including my teachings in his book about Tiger titled 'The Big Miss' - that was a totally unexpected surprise and he didn't tell me about it until it had been released.... there's more to the story I'll share at a later date.
'The Game is Our Teacher'
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I agree on value but...value goes two ways
$160 an hour was a might steep for me when I have a kid in college, I just chose not to as it didn't provide a value for me at the time. Perhaps it would have been worth it but I don't think it would have hurt him much to have given me just a bit more value. I would have paid more if more value were given.
$160 an hour was a might steep for me when I have a kid in college, I just chose not to as it didn't provide a value for me at the time. Perhaps it would have been worth it but I don't think it would have hurt him much to have given me just a bit more value. I would have paid more if more value were given.