Pool teaching philosophy

[Petros Andrikop]

Respect to every side is essential, after all a game is about everyone involved.
Everybody involved, pros - amateurs - instructors -industry members love the game in their own way and depend on each other's presence.
Pros have a better "feeling", and instructors have a "good eye" about what pros are doing and how/why things work at the table, both have knowledge insight.
Pros usually offer "experience" and instructors offer "method", and as I stated earlier in both cases there are people who can teach and those who can't.
I'm surprised when I see underestimation of any view, pro view mainly, on the other side from some of the names mentioned in this thread I would like to point out the one of the great Robert Byrne. Robert Byrne has won titles, played the game in a really good level, and his material has helped players all around the world in the same way the material of the great Grady Mathews has.
I wouldn't be surprised if top players have knowledge of that material.
So listening to a different approach does help, considering there are adequate "filters" to use it.
Petros

 

[TheThaiger]

Good to see we have at least one case maker who knows what he is talking about.

 

[TheThaiger]

If you really want to know, after the basics, it's 90% mental. And yes, there is a "pro secret" that is a magic pill. It's called aderall (sp?) Not all use it, but you would be amazed at just how many do use it. And how different their game is when they don't use it.

Ah, the subject that will not be discussed. Maybe if we got everything out into the open, the game could move on. But let's keep our dirty secrets buried, eh?

 

[TheThaiger]

it goes to tourney entrance fees (many of which are purely donations because I have no chance to win), and it goes to buying pool related supplies, videos, books, even buying autographed pool memorabilia for my basement pool room...... so if pro's want us to stop promoting/teaching this sport so it can die a little faster, just say the word, I'm sure I can find other things to work on in my spare time

Aren't 'club pros', by definition, capable of winning any competition held in any country on any continent on planet earth?

 

[KRJ]

Aren't 'club pros', by definition, capable of winning any competition held in any country on any continent on planet earth?

No. I'm a instructor, I'm not a professional player. I made a promise to my mother when I was 14 that I would NOT be a pool player... my father owned a pool room, and my mother worked there, and was not to pleased with the lifestyle or "attitudes" of many players, she saw it up close and personal. BEST ADVICE she ever game me... pension, 401K and savings account is pretty healthy

So, I chose school and another line of work, and then took 15 years off from the game and then came back as hobby to play and to coach.... coaching is more fun to me than playing actually.

 

[Island Drive]

When you read certain threads on Azbilliards, books videos etc you will notice that certain things are recommended that deviate rather significantly from what the professional players do. Personally I feel like the correct way to teach is to teach the philosophy of the current top players (not one in particular but the average of them) from the very beginning.

1. Bridge length. Most pros today play with long bridges. Exceptions exist but are rare.

2. Elbow movement. Several pros if not nearly all have some degree of elbow drop. It is rare to see someone with an entirely fixed elbow.

3. Use no spin. Good as a training tool. But for playing? Isn't this handicapping yourself, especially in 9 and 10 ball? Watch Earl Strickland play and you'll know what I mean.

What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change?

A. Buddy Halls bridge distance speaks loudly.
B. Yep
C. Rotation pool is all about stunning whitey, walking the cue ball and gettin' table speed under control. Spin gets ya out and into trouble when your unable to pound out an angle.

 

[JB Cases]

I agree that good solid Instruction from the fundamental standpoint is needed but what is it worth?

Recently I had decided I was going to contribute to someones back pocket to get a professional level lesson....when I got the price per hour....I was shocked and declined...obviously he thought he was worth it.

So tell me what do you guys thing Professional Instruction is worth and hour?

What is it worth?

Well anything like that is obviously subjective mostly and goes into the worth what you will pay category.... because there is no professional coaching association that has pricing guidelines. I have seen pros charge $25 an hour to $300 an hour.

I would easily pay $2000 for a week with Efren. I wouldn't pay $10 for time spent with a few people.

Ask yourself this though......what is a lifetime of compiling high level knowledge and experience worth to you?

Every pro I have taken lessons from has resulted in a tip that I could directly trace to a decent win, be it gambling or in tournament play. So if I added up the lifetime expenses of lessons from professional players I have had would estimate them at about $1500-$2000ish and I would say that I have definitely gotten my money's worth out of them.

In fact....the money I spent on lessons in one pocket is what carried my sorry ass through a dismal performance against Lou. Without the knowledge I gained from people like James Walden and Stan Shuffett and others I would not have reached the six games I did get. If I had coupled those lessons with an intense desire and work ethic to master the methods and master my mental state I am 100% positive I would have beaten Lou soundly.

So, FWIW I consider it money well spent so far and haven't really had a bad experience with any of the professionals I have taken lessons from. Your experience may vary. I would definitely say that the more it costs the higher your expectations will be.

I personally would think $50-$100 for an hour of a professional pool player's time is reasonable. If it is a world champion then you should expect and be willing to be more.

 

[jburkm002]

JB this is not a dig but you are a good example. There are a million things one can learn about pool. However, no one should have taught you one thing beyond correcting your stroke. You can learn all you want but without applying sound fundamentals the rest does not matter. That can be one issue with instructional pool. They want to teach beyond your current capabilities. I get it. Who wants to pay money only to do stroke drills for hours. However, if your stoke sucks that the only thing they should focus on. Once corrected then move on to the next level, then the next. Traveling instructors may not be the best way to go. Unless they have a month to work with you.

 

[Pidge]

I have to say, as far as instruction goes there are specialists in different fields. I've never had a paid pool lesson, but when I was growing up I went from instructor to instructor. I had several over the space of around 5 years. One for my fundamentals - stance, grip and cueing action mainly, one for strategy and how to break build, one for aiming and sighting. Its rare to find an instructor that can cover all of the above categories as well as separate instructors. There are some out there, but they're in high demand. I think ex pros, pros and high level amateurs would be best suited to the "strategy" focus point. Who better to tell you how to play a game than someone who has played the game at the highest level. As for aiming and fundamentals my experience in talking with some ex and current pro snooker players is that they struggle explaining why to do something, or how they aim and sight shots. I've been left more confused than anything on these subjects. One prime example is I was talking to a pro snooker player and I asked about his stance, he said let me see your stance and when he did he said do this this and this. When I asked why he replied because that's how I do it...no mention of the fact I'm much taller and completely different shape. His way may have worked wonders for me. But he didn't know why he stood like he did made such a difference to him.

I advise asking around whether locally or on here before you put the money up for instruction and remember just because an instructor has cured your wonky cuing action, doesn't mean they are going to be able to fix your sighting errors for example. You may have to have several coaches before you're ready to take on the world.

 

[JB Cases]

JB this is not a dig but you are a good example. There are a million things one can learn about pool. However, no one should have taught you one thing beyond correcting your stroke. You can learn all you want but without applying sound fundamentals the rest does not matter. That can be one issue with instructional pool. They want to teach beyond your current capabilities. I get it. Who wants to pay money only to do stroke drills for hours. However, if your stoke sucks that the only thing they should focus on. Once corrected then move on to the next level, then the next. Traveling instructors may not be the best way to go. Unless they have a month to work with you.

I am only a good example of being a BAD student. PERIOD.

My stroke is FINE when I bear down. It goes to hell when my mind wanders or I am upset or under pressure.

So it's MY fault for not being willing to put in the time to make that stroke effortless under all conditions.

Once again, the reply was focused on what a PROFESSIONAL can bring to the table and to me that is KNOWLEDGE. Although Stan and James Walden did both work with me on stroke and ball address to their credit. And I completely dogged it under the adrenaline and emotional baggage I carried into the match.

 

[JB Cases]

And I strongly disagree that "the rest doesn't matter" if you don't have a "good" stroke. Nonsense and triple nonsense.

I don't have a consistently good stroke and yet I have enough knowledge to hold my own against most players I face. I can do things that a lot of players simply don't know HOW to do because I was taught those things by professional players.

The other night I took second in a tournament. The guy I was playing missed a long straight in where the cue ball was frozen to the rail. After the match I taught him a technique taught to me by Jimmy Reid in 1992 that has worked for me countless times. My opponent was really grateful for the tip. Something he would have never thought of on his own and certainly not something I would have discovered.

Even now it's not common knowledge, is not taught in any books that I know of or on any videos. maybe on Jimmy's, I don't know. But the point is that it's a valid technique that works and it came from a pro and has zero to do with having a straight stroke. When we discuss getting instruction from pros I assume that the student has a decent enough level of proficiency as to not need too much instruction on stroking straight. They just need to put in the time to make sure they have a stroke that holds up under pressure.

 

[336Robin]

Considerations taken into account

What is it worth?

Well anything like that is obviously subjective mostly and goes into the worth what you will pay category.... because there is no professional coaching association that has pricing guidelines. I have seen pros charge $25 an hour to $300 an hour.

I would easily pay $2000 for a week with Efren. I wouldn't pay $10 for time spent with a few people.

Ask yourself this though......what is a lifetime of compiling high level knowledge and experience worth to you?

Every pro I have taken lessons from has resulted in a tip that I could directly trace to a decent win, be it gambling or in tournament play. So if I added up the lifetime expenses of lessons from professional players I have had would estimate them at about $1500-$2000ish and I would say that I have definitely gotten my money's worth out of them.

In fact....the money I spent on lessons in one pocket is what carried my sorry ass through a dismal performance against Lou. Without the knowledge I gained from people like James Walden and Stan Shuffett and others I would not have reached the six games I did get. If I had coupled those lessons with an intense desire and work ethic to master the methods and master my mental state I am 100% positive I would have beaten Lou soundly.

So, FWIW I consider it money well spent so far and haven't really had a bad experience with any of the professionals I have taken lessons from. Your experience may vary. I would definitely say that the more it costs the higher your expectations will be.

I personally would think $50-$100 for an hour of a professional pool player's time is reasonable. If it is a world champion then you should expect and be willing to be more.

John,
I agree with what you wrote. I wasnt particularly proud of my decision to pass on the lesson but given what was going on in my life at that time I decided I wouldnt retain as much of it so that was a big consideration. Just for the record I have paid more for a lesson but I also got more than an hour.

When the guy said $160 and hour and I said I will pass that was the end of the conversation ...this was email......and I had made it clear I wanted to go over a lot of area. I dont think it would have hurt him to have given me more time for somewhat lesser than doubling the 160. He would have made a lot more money than what he wanted for an hours worth. Since I play fairly well and could play a lot better if I were able to play more I decided that I might not be at the best place to pay that much.

If it had been Efren I would have said can you spend the day with me? Thats a once in a lifetime kind of thing and I would have enjoyed every minute and not worried once about the money. Not really knowing this guy, I just couldnt do it.

I dont mind paying for something when a value is offered. I just found myself wondering if I were going to get that kind of value in a hours time. I just felt my time and my money were disrespected and I dont have go along with it. I lost a lesson, he lost the larger wad, I would have been glad to part with for added value. We both lost out in my opinion. I hear of others who had lessons with him and I have to wonder what rate he gave them but it really doesnt matter, whatever it was they were happy with it.

 

[JB Cases]

John,
I agree with what you wrote. I wasnt particularly proud of my decision to pass on the lesson but given what was going on in my life at that time I decided I wouldnt retain as much of it so that was a big consideration. Just for the record I have paid more for a lesson but I also got more than an hour.

When the guy said $160 and hour and I said I will pass that was the end of the conversation ...this was email......and I had made it clear I wanted to go over a lot of area. I dont think it would have hurt him to have given me more time for somewhat lesser than doubling the 160. He would have made a lot more money than what he wanted for an hours worth. Since I play fairly well and could play a lot better if I were able to play more I decided that I might not be at the best place to pay that much.

If it had been Efren I would have said can you spend the day with me? Thats a once in a lifetime kind of thing and I would have enjoyed every minute and not worried once about the money. Not really knowing this guy, I just couldnt do it.

I dont mind paying for something when a value is offered. I just found myself wondering if I were going to get that kind of value in a hours time. I just felt my time and my money were disrespected and I dont have go along with it. I lost a lesson, he lost the larger wad, I would have been glad to part with for added value. We both lost out in my opinion. I hear of others who had lessons with him and I have to wonder what rate he gave them but it really doesnt matter, whatever it was they were happy with it.

I see your point. Anything of this nature is certainly a risk for the buyer as everyone is at different points in their life and game. The pro could give the same lesson to two different people who are rated at the same level and one could feel it's the worst ever and the other might be praising the lesson to the heavens.

I think that as a person who offers a product you have to decide on a price for your time and have the resolve to stick to it if you feel that's really what you want. Of course you should probably figure out some kind of discount structure or where you can make concessions for other reasons.

For example if I were dealing with someone who is more influential or very active in their community then I am inclined to give them a break because I feel it will pay off in word-of-mouth marketing for me. (provided they get the value they expected).

I honestly think figuring out lesson prices is a bit a voodoo magic. It really does force both the seller and buyer to essentially put a "worth" to a human's time. Essentially you are trading x-amount of your labor hours for x-amount of theirs and when that trade seems out of balance then it's hard to reconcile it.

Sometimes it's just a leap of faith.

 

[SmoothStroke]

I agree that good solid Instruction from the fundamental standpoint is needed but what is it worth?

Recently I had decided I was going to contribute to someones back pocket to get a professional level lesson....when I got the price per hour....I was shocked and declined...obviously he thought he was worth it.

So tell me what do you guys thing Professional Instruction is worth and hour?

If you are ever in my area I will do it for free, and pay the table time.
If I can't cover everything there is , have you feeling comfortable in 2 hours or less, you may come on here and rag me to death.

Warning..before we begin we will have at least a 30 minute discussion on what and why we will be going over certain things and how they are connected. simple,simple,simple

The work order reads for fundamentals:

The different types of stance..what works best for you to drop in
Alignment, Line in line out aiming, binocular sighting,tip accuracy, digging in, bridges, grips, muscle tension, footwork, legs, elbow, stroke approach, etc.etc.etc. And some stroke technique to put it all together for a finish product. 2 hours
We will not be moving your feet around for 2 hours

I also promise to make it simple and easy to understand, not near as how I typed it.
I would also say more than $35 per hour for a fundamental lesson is robbery.

 

[JB Cases]

If you are ever in my area I will do it for free, and pay the table time.
If I can't cover everything there is , have you feeling comfortable in 2 hours or less, you may come on here and rag me to death.

Warning..before we begin we will have at least a 30 minute discussion on what and why we will be going over certain things and how they are connected. simple,simple,simple

The work order reads for fundamentals:

The different types of stance..what works best for you to drop in
Alignment, Line in line out aiming, binocular sighting,tip accuracy, digging in, bridges, grips, muscle tension, footwork, legs, elbow, stroke approach, etc.etc.etc. And some stroke technique to put it all together for a finish product. 2 hours
We will not be moving your feet around for 2 hours

I also promise to make it simple and easy to understand, not near as how I typed it.
I would also say more than $35 per hour for a fundamental lesson is robbery.

Robin is an advanced player. He might be able to give you lessons.

 

[JB Cases]

Ah, the subject that will not be discussed. Maybe if we got everything out into the open, the game could move on. But let's keep our dirty secrets buried, eh?

Please. Stop with the nonsense. People take drugs, get over it. It isn't a secret. People take drugs for a variety of reasons, one of which is to improve focus. Focus won't do you a lot of good if you don't have the knowledge or game to back it up.

In WPA events all the top finishers are drug tested and they will forfeit their winnings and be barred if they fail.

So it's not like people are not aware of drugs in pool.

Guess no snooker player in history has ever played on drugs? (it's a trick question, think about it)

 

[336Robin]

Fundamentals Checkup

If you are ever in my area I will do it for free, and pay the table time.
If I can't cover everything there is , have you feeling comfortable in 2 hours or less, you may come on here and rag me to death.

Warning..before we begin we will have at least a 30 minute discussion on what and why we will be going over certain things and how they are connected. simple,simple,simple

The work order reads for fundamentals:

The different types of stance..what works best for you to drop in
Alignment, Line in line out aiming, binocular sighting,tip accuracy, digging in, bridges, grips, muscle tension, footwork, legs, elbow, stroke approach, etc.etc.etc. And some stroke technique to put it all together for a finish product. 2 hours
We will not be moving your feet around for 2 hours

I also promise to make it simple and easy to understand, not near as how I typed it.
I would also say more than $35 per hour for a fundamental lesson is robbery.

Thats might nice of you Smooth Stroke, I've never had a fundamentals checkup. I did at one time have an issue with left foot placement that I have since fixed. I know of no other areas in the fundamentals that I have but that doesnt mean there might not be one. I do know I'm pretty consistent with what I do but I dont watch myself so you might see something I dont get a chance to. Im fairly short 5ft 7 and feel a little funny jumping balls sometimes. If I have trouble the jumpshot would be it. I pocket most of my shots.

What I was wanting from the lesson I didnt take, was an advanced lesson I just felt it was a little pricey not really knowing the man. Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[nobcitypool]

PS: i have another saying..."your too smart to play good pool". Yes I'm dumb but I found out how to play pretty good pool,and it was not from a math or geometry book.

John, you're not dumb and more of a scientist than you realize. And don't eschew geometry either. Better than any bank player, you don't just do it with feel, rather you figured out how to cheat the bank angles to make the pocket bigger. You figured out the ways to hit the cb and the best cb speeds to accomplish that. While you may not be the guy I'd call to solve a problem using geometric math, your instinctual understanding of geometry and the physics of the cb and ob interaction are much better than you give yourself credit for.

I'm not sure why this ongoing argument is necessary. I'll use Stan Shuffett and CTE/Pro One as an example. When I first started taking lessons from Stan (and Stevie Moore), they focused on teaching me a straight stroke, center cb, PSR and other basic fundamentals. As I've progressed with my skills, the lessons have evolved. My last lesson with Stan involved some specialty strokes for specific situations, employing side English with CTE/Pro One as the starting point and a number of other "Pro techniques". You have to walk before you can run. Different skill levels require different levels of teaching. Not all instructors have the skill set to teach all levels. I don't think a beginner would be best served by trying to emulate Reyes or Bustamante. However, someone who had the game to seriously compete in a banks tournament couldn't find a better instructor than John Brumback. I don't think the top physicist would be the best choice to teach first graders how to add and subtract no more than the country school teacher should be teaching advanced physics at MIT.

 

[Scott Lee]

You certainly have me wondering who this "instructor" was. I don't know of anybody, pro player or not, who charges that much. You could have had a lesson with the top professional instructor in the USA, who lives right there in your state, for less than half that price. Of course, like myself, he would have told you that you can't learn anything much in an hours time. It would take that long just to evaluate what you know, and whether your stroke is repeatable or not. That said, you'd learn whatever it was that you were looking for...or the lesson would be no charge.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

When the guy said $160 and hour and I said I will pass that was the end of the conversation ...this was email......and I had made it clear I wanted to go over a lot of area. I dont think it would have hurt him to have given me more time for somewhat lesser than doubling the 160. He would have made a lot more money than what he wanted for an hours worth. Since I play fairly well and could play a lot better if I were able to play more I decided that I might not be at the best place to pay that much.

I dont mind paying for something when a value is offered. I just found myself wondering if I were going to get that kind of value in a hours time. I just felt my time and my money were disrespected and I dont have go along with it. I lost a lesson, he lost the larger wad, I would have been glad to part with for added value. We both lost out in my opinion. I hear of others who had lessons with him and I have to wonder what rate he gave them but it really doesnt matter, whatever it was they were happy with it.

 

[336Robin]

You certainly have me wondering who this "instructor" was. I don't know of anybody, pro player or not, who charges that much. You could have had a lesson with the top professional instructor in the USA, who lives right there in your state, for less than half that price. Of course, like myself, he would have told you that you can't learn anything much in an hours time. It would take that long just to evaluate what you know, and whether your stroke is repeatable or not. That said, you'd learn whatever it was that you were looking for...or the lesson would be no charge.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

It had just been a very long time since I had taken a lesson from anyone and I was kind of wondering how much I would get from it but the price was just way beyond what I was willing to give.

I will probably pm you for the name of the top pro instructor you speak of. I think when I am finished with this job in 4 months Id like to spend some time working on my game. I play pretty good but Im always open to learning more. I'm sure you are curious about who this was but thats going to have to go unmentioned if I had have some differences with you I wouldnt trash your name on here so I will keep my mouth shut on this here as well.

I will look your friend up though., thanks for note.