The Grip

[CJ Wiley]

If Shane, or Alex loved snooker more than pool they'd also be top snooker champions.

It has to do with natural passion. Even if I could run 100 every time I shot in snooker it still wouldn't interest me enough to dedicate myself to it. Despite what inexperienced opinion says, it's not about the money, it's about truly caring for what you're expressing yourself through. Pool does that for me, snooker does not.....the compensation makes very little difference when it comes down to these critical factors.
If Shane, or Alex loved snooker more than pool they'd also be top snooker champions.

They don't and I haven't ever seen anyone that cared enough for both games to master them (both). They are as different as ping pong and tennis, both require incredible skill, however, no one will ever be a champion at both games.

See post # 52. I don't think anyone has a fundamentally and entirely original and revolutionary take on cue sports fundamentals, how do you know that? could the fundamentals teaching we have today is not the best! Why Alex P, Cory Duel, and DAZ and many others did not excel in snooker yet, they are top pros in Pool; are they missing something? what is it? and please do not say talent, or they did not have the patience for it.

CJ what do you think the reason, seriously! you tried snooker, did you , how did you do?


Music players biggest assets is brain,fingers, and ears; pool's biggest assets is brain / eyes / and lots of moving big muscles, which one do you think harder to learn or teach!
Music curriculum is recognized by all governments, and supported by the department of Education; it is uniform across all countries, hope pool gets that way one day.

 

[naji]

It has to do with natural passion. Even if I could run 100 every time I shot in snooker it still wouldn't interest me enough to dedicate myself to it. Despite what inexperienced opinion says, it's not about the money, it's about truly caring for what you're expressing yourself through. Pool does that for me, snooker does not.....the compensation makes very little difference when it comes down to these critical factors.
If Shane, or Alex loved snooker more than pool they'd also be top snooker champions.

They don't and I haven't ever seen anyone that cared enough for both games to master them (both). They are as different as ping pong and tennis, both require incredible skill, however, no one will ever be a champion at both games.

I know Alex loved snooker, won many local Canada tours, and tried recently in London but could not reach the top, would you think it is because his cuing skill, positional skill, strategy, or his focus and concentration that failed him, or all combined?

 

[Pidge]

I know Alex loved snooker, won many local Canada tours, and tried recently in London but could not reach the top, would you think it is because his cuing skill, positional skill, strategy, or his focus and concentration that failed him, or all combined?

Lack of experience playing at the highest level. Pure and simple that's why Alex didn't excel at it. Through no fault of his own, he was just born in the wrong part of the world. The greats like Hendry and Ronnie all had competition at the highest level throughout their lives, from early teens onwards. If any of the top pool pros had this...they did in pool, hence why they reached the top, but instead had this in snooker they would be able to compete at the top and reach the top 16. Would any have made Ronnie the second best player ever? Doubtful, but there isn't any shame in coming second to Ronnie.

 

[sfleinen]

It has to do with natural passion. Even if I could run 100 every time I shot in snooker it still wouldn't interest me enough to dedicate myself to it. Despite what inexperienced opinion says, it's not about the money, it's about truly caring for what you're expressing yourself through. Pool does that for me, snooker does not.....the compensation makes very little difference when it comes down to these critical factors.
If Shane, or Alex loved snooker more than pool they'd also be top snooker champions.

They don't and I haven't ever seen anyone that cared enough for both games to master them (both). They are as different as ping pong and tennis, both require incredible skill, however, no one will ever be a champion at both games.

CJ:

You keep using the analogy "ping pong and tennis" -- as if to imply snooker is pong pong (because of the smaller balls?) and pool is tennis. But that is a pool player's very-flawed analogy they use when their baby is called ugly. Try reversing that analogy, and it'll be closer to the truth. Pool players like to hang on to this head-scratching notion that snooker player may be more accurate, but have weaker strokes or what-not. Even Mark Wilson, in his (otherwise great) book Play Great Pool, makes this flawed conclusion. And, he does so immediately after regaling the reader with how amazed he was at the accuracy of snooker players with fundamentals that fly in the face of what he's been taught and teaches. This tells me he's not qualified to make that assertion, because he doesn't know enough about snooker fundamentals to know why they work -- therefore it's merely bias.

Fact is, snooker players make the foray into pool all the time, and immediately get comfortable. It takes a rare (and very rare) pool player to make the foray into snooker and do much of a dent. Alex P. is a notable example (and one of the very few -- being in the same company as Steve Mizerak and Jim Rempe -- neither of which did much of a dent beyond challenge matches or what-have-you).

It's amusing to read pool player soapbox about snooker, when it's obvious they know nothing about the game or the teachings beyond what they see in YouTube videos.

-Sean <-- preparing a bag of popcorn, waiting for the litany of fortune cookie logic with crackerjack prize of meme images

 

[BasementDweller]

CJ:

You keep using the analogy "ping pong and tennis" -- as if to imply snooker is pong pong (because of the smaller balls?) and pool is tennis. But that is a pool player's very-flawed analogy they use when their baby is called ugly. Try reversing that analogy, and it'll be closer to the truth. Pool players like to hang on to this head-scratching notion that snooker player may be more accurate, but have weaker strokes or what-not. Even Mark Wilson, in his (otherwise great) book Play Great Pool, makes this flawed conclusion. And, he does so immediately after regaling the reader with how amazed he was at the accuracy of snooker players with fundamentals that fly in the face of what he's been taught and teaches. This tells me he's not qualified to make that assertion, because he doesn't know enough about snooker fundamentals to know why they work -- therefore it's merely bias.

Fact is, snooker players make the foray into pool all the time, and immediately get comfortable. It takes a rare (and very rare) pool player to make the foray into snooker and do much of a dent. Alex P. is a notable example (and one of the very few -- being in the same company as Steve Mizerak and Jim Rempe -- neither of which did much of a dent beyond challenge matches or what-have-you).

It's amusing to read pool player soapbox about snooker, when it's obvious they know nothing about the game or the teachings beyond what they see in YouTube videos.

-Sean <-- preparing a bag of popcorn, waiting for the litany of fortune cookie logic with crackerjack prize of meme images

Great post Sean.

I came to a very similar conclusion here:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4799169&postcount=184

It's nice to see that an average mind and a great one can come to the same conclusion. :thumbup:

The fact of the matter is the only thing that directly transfers to any cue sport discipline is straight cueing! Snooker players will always have a leg up in this department.

Now I need to get this average mind back to work.

 

[naji]

Lack of experience playing at the highest level. Pure and simple that's why Alex didn't excel at it. Through no fault of his own, he was just born in the wrong part of the world. The greats like Hendry and Ronnie all had competition at the highest level throughout their lives, from early teens onwards. If any of the top pool pros had this...they did in pool, hence why they reached the top, but instead had this in snooker they would be able to compete at the top and reach the top 16. Would any have made Ronnie the second best player ever? Doubtful, but there isn't any shame in coming second to Ronnie.

Pidge, would an appropriate answer be, we as humans, pros, players, you name it have not find the secrets to shooting great snooker or pool. There must be something; for Ronnie S to shoot so good, and Alex not as good. Does Ronnie know every step that makes him a great snooker player, or he just go down and shoot?
With that many snooker players coming out, i bet the secret is locked in a vault and only those that fetch lots of $$ for instructions can get to?

Sfleinen, and Basement guy! for now i am in agreement with your writing

 

[Pidge]

Pidge, would an appropriate answer be, we as humans, pros, players, you name it have not find the secrets to shooting great snooker or pool. There must be something; for Ronnie S to shoot so good, and Alex not as good. Does Ronnie know every step that makes him a great snooker player, or he just go down and shoot?
With that many snooker players coming out, i bet the secret is locked in a vault and only those that fetch lots of $$ for instructions can get to?

Sfleinen, and Basement guy! for now i am in agreement with your writing

No, what sets Ronnie and Alex apart is a lifetime of devotion to different games. Nothing less, nothing more.

 

[BasementDweller]

Pidge, would an appropriate answer be, we as humans, pros, players, you name it have not find the secrets to shooting great snooker or pool. There must be something; for Ronnie S to shoot so good, and Alex not as good. Does Ronnie know every step that makes him a great snooker player, or he just go down and shoot?
With that many snooker players coming out, i bet the secret is locked in a vault and only those that fetch lots of $$ for instructions can get to?

Sfleinen, and Basement guy! for now i am in agreement with your writing

There's no secret.

I do think there's a difference in mentality between your typical snooker player and a pool player though.

Based on the different things I've read and seen over the years I think the snooker players are way more obsessed with their cueing technique. They spend an entire career trying to master THEIR stroke. Picture an 8 year old kid getting obsessed with their stroke and you get an image of a Steve Davis or a Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Pool players are wired a little differently. They tend to get more enjoyment out of the balls and they spend a great deal of their careers trying to master all the different pool shots (e.g. banks, kicks, caroms, & break shot).

I think I'm more wired like the snooker players and had I been born in a different time and place I think I would have been a snooker player or at least tried to be one. All this stroke talk of mine around fellow pool players just gets met with a glassy-eyed stare most of the time.

 

[JoeyInCali]

No, what sets Ronnie and Alex apart is a lifetime of devotion to different games. Nothing less, nothing more.

I think it's his gift of seeing the right aiming line right away.

Some people can shoot revolvers from the hip as accurate as most can shoot with a semi-auto on full-on shooting stance.

 

[naji]

There's no secret.

I do think there's a difference in mentality between your typical snooker player and a pool player though.

Based on the different things I've read and seen over the years I think the snooker players are way more obsessed with their cueing technique. They spend an entire career trying to master THEIR stroke. Picture an 8 year old kid getting obsessed with their stroke and you get an image of a Steve Davis or a Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Pool players are wired a little differently. They tend to get more enjoyment out of the balls and they spend a great deal of their careers trying to master all the different pool shots (e.g. banks, kicks, caroms, & break shot).

I think I'm more wired like the snooker players and had I been born in a different time and place I think I would have been a snooker player or at least tried to be one. All this stroke talk of mine around fellow pool players just gets met with a glassy-eyed stare most of the time.

BasementDweller, i disagree, we just find out yesterday, that with LD shaft you can vary the pivot point by varying the butt hand angle from cb center line, it sure makes a big difference for me at least, and makes multiple pivot points..

I really think we have to overhaul our fundamentals, we have tried it for last 30 years and more it is not making huge jump , and pool is loosing traction because it is perceived to be hard game. This is my take!

 

[Pidge]

Generally snooker players don't worry about pivot points, CTE, TOI etc. Pool players seem somewhat obsessive about trying to find ways of mastering the game through quick fixes. Snooker players use ghost ball or fractional aiming, coupled with a straight stroke. There's no mystery here, just hours of dedicated practice.

If pool players stopped trying to uncover 'secrets' and just concentrated on basic skills such as pushing the stick forward in a straight line, and putting the hours in practicing, they would fulfil their potential.

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That's a very good point you bring up. There are posters on here that seem to think snooker players are withholding information, top secret tips and voodoo magic tricks. They're not. They're just damn good at what they do. All the information is readily available on the internet, in books and via an instructor to give you everything you need to become a top player. The difference is, the guys that reach the top have put the hours in to get there. I used to watch Paul Hunter practice, he would start at 11am and wouldn't go home until 11pm. Going through drills, match situations, safety and break building. That's 12 hours table time all to himself. You need immense drive and dedication to do that day in day out.

 

[naji]

Generally snooker players don't worry about pivot points, CTE, TOI etc. Pool players seem somewhat obsessive about trying to find ways of mastering the game through quick fixes. Snooker players use ghost ball or fractional aiming, coupled with a straight stroke. There's no mystery here, just hours of dedicated practice.

If pool players stopped trying to uncover 'secrets' and just concentrated on basic skills such as pushing the stick forward in a straight line, and putting the hours in practicing, they would fulfil their potential.

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Look i am human, (i hope LOL) it does not and will not sink in my head , that Alex P , Cory Duel could not reach high levels in snooker. What i believe, is they are doing something wrong; there must be a way to get the good stroke straight enough for snooker and hence accurate pool, how! IMO there is some kind of a trick, something, how to aim properly, how to grip, stroke, stance, bridge length, back and forward swing all related. I am working on it, hope to find it in my life time! No i am not going to see an instructor!

 

[SakuJack]

I used to watch Paul Hunter practice, he would start at 11am and wouldn't go home until 11pm. Going through drills, match situations, safety and break building. That's 12 hours table time all to himself. You need immense drive and dedication to do that day in day out.

I think this is a big difference between snooker and pool right now. Snooker players treat the game like a profession; a lot of pool players seem to see it as a way to not get a real job.

 

[Pidge]

Look i am human, (i hope LOL) it does not and will not sink in my head , that Alex P , Cory Duel could not reach high levels in snooker. What i believe, is they are doing something wrong; there must be a way to get the good stroke straight enough for snooker and hence accurate pool, how! IMO there is some kind of a trick, something, how to aim properly, how to grip, stroke, stance, bridge length, back and forward swing all related. I am working on it, hope to find it in my life time! No i am not going to see an instructor!

So you think there is some kind of secret, eh? I can assure you there isn't. The secret, if you can call it that is having the ability to strike the CB where you intend. The grip, getting back on topic has very little to do with that. The rest is upto the player. Plenty of people can hit the CB where they want, but can't see the shot line, judge how the CB will react, work positional angles out and have the speed control necessary to reach the top. There is no secret in gaining these attribute, just natural ability and practice.

If you have the mindset that you just don't know the "secrets" to improve, then you will be looking all your life for them, and never improving at all.

 

[ps611846]

So you think there is some kind of secret, eh? I can assure you there isn't. The secret, if you can call it that is having the ability to strike the CB where you intend. The grip, getting back on topic has very little to do with that. The rest is upto the player. Plenty of people can hit the CB where they want, but can't see the shot line, judge how the CB will react, work positional angles out and have the speed control necessary to reach the top. There is no secret in gaining these attribute, just natural ability and practice.

If you have the mindset that you just don't know the "secrets" to improve, then you will be looking all your life for them, and never improving at all.

My friend you keep saying that snooker is much harder than pool. They are just different games. Lot of tough shots in pool at any cb-ob distance. Snooker is played mostly on one part of the table (1/4-1/3). This is a small area and you can master shots that do the job. I don't say it's easy. But how often do you see snooker players play spin shots, power follow, power draw at 6-7 ft distance or more? Yes, it's a tough game but I could not think more than 5 top pro snooker players who can play this kind of shots with great accuracy.

And of course no snooker top pro can beat a top pool pro in a game of pool. Maybe 2-3 out of 10. The problem is that in our days pool is not at the level it was 15-20 years ago.......

 

[Pidge]

My friend you keep saying that snooker is much harder than pool. They are just different games. Lot of tough shots in pool at any cb-ob distance. Snooker is played mostly on one part of the table (1/4-1/3). This is a small area and you can master shots that do the job. I don't say it's easy. But how often do you see snooker players play spin shots, power follow, power draw at 6-7 ft distance or more? Yes, it's a tough game but I could not think more than 5 top pro snooker players who can play this kind of shots with great accuracy.

And of course no snooker top pro can beat a top pool pro in a game of pool. Maybe 2-3 out of 10. The problem is that in our days pool is not at the level it was 15-20 years ago.......

When have I ever said this? Feel free to direct quote me

You need to sit back and watch Judd Trump and Neil Robertson play. They play deep screw and force follow better than most pool players. Snooker players still play long shots, the difference is you don't notice how long they are. A spot shot from the kitchen in pool looks long and tough, but in reality, its only like a snooker player playing the pink from just behind centre table. Something a snooker player would expect to make 10 of 10 times, with the tighter pockets too ;-)

Both games, and both sets of professionals are extremely good at what they do, and until one player from either side goes full blooded into the other sport, we wont know if pros of either have what it takes to do well in the other sport.

 

[ps611846]

When have I ever said this? Feel free to direct quote me

You need to sit back and watch Judd Trump and Neil Robertson play. They play deep screw and force follow better than most pool players. Snooker players still play long shots, the difference is you don't notice how long they are. A spot shot from the kitchen in pool looks long and tough, but in reality, its only like a snooker player playing the pink from just behind centre table. Something a snooker player would expect to make 10 of 10 times, with the tighter pockets too ;-)

Both games, and both sets of professionals are extremely good at what they do, and until one player from either side goes full blooded into the other sport, we wont know if pros of either have what it takes to do well in the other sport.

I have watched a lot of snooker and of course pool. Thousands of hours my friend. And I do know the difference between 9ft and 12ft. What I said is not that snooker pros don't play these shots. I said that there are no more than 5 of them who can play them with accuracy. And they do play most of the game in a very small area. In pool you have to play the whole table all the time.

 

[ps611846]

Pocketing balls is easier in pool, by virtue of smaller table and larger pockets. On a pool table the ob can hit the rail 12' from the pocket and still drop. On a snooker table, if the ob even grazes the rail it won't go in. Also, ALL professional snooker players frequently used spin, force follow and deep draw on shots more than 7ft. In any match you`ll see long pots with lots of action on the cue ball.

All this doesn't mean that pool is easier than snooker, just that one aspect is easier. Pool players excel (perhaps more than snooker plays) at pin point safety play, banks and kicks, and also have jumping in the equation. I think pool players also use more side (English) which is a skill, albeit a skill with a greater margin of error than on a snooker table.

Oh, and I think snooker players can compete at pool if they put the effort in. Look at Steve Davis and Tony Drago- both have been really successful. I've also seen Ronnie on a pool table, and he looks pretty good

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Yes, Ronnie and Steve have done very well in the past. And they were playing legends of the game of pool. That's why I say that pool is at a lower level now. They were playing monster players but they would not beat them in the long run. And they never reached the top.

 

[ps611846]

I'd say that there are at least 100 players who play these shots.

You say you've watched thousands of hours of snooker? It sounds like you haven't watched any in the last 20 years.

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100?????? There are no more than 20 who play the game at "top" level !!!!!! Can you tell me some names let's say 50 of them ????

 

[TheThaiger]

So you think there is some kind of secret, eh? I can assure you there isn't. The secret, if you can call it that is having the ability to strike the CB where you intend.

Then why do you fart about with aiming systems? Every Brit knows hitting the cue ball sweetly is 99% of the battle, and by far the hardest thing to do.