Rule Differences Between APA & BCA

[APA Operator]

All I know is that if I ever found myself playing in an APA league, and I quickly knocked in a duck 8-ball that was hanging in a pocket without first marking the pocket, and my opponent jumped up and down in glee claiming he won the game because I didn't put a stupid token near the pocket, I'd shoot him. If I had a gun. Which I don't.

All I know is if I ever found myself playing in a BCAPL league, and I quickly knocked in a duck 8-ball that was hanging in the pocket without first calling the pocket, and my opponent jumped up and down in glee claiming he won the game because I didn't point my stupid cue at the pocket, I'd want to shoot him. I wouldn't shoot him, even if I had a gun. Which I do.

It's not the rule that is stupid, it's the person who can't play within the spirit of the rule. I would hate to have to give up my turn because I didn't call the pocket on ANY duck, not just the 8-Ball. But if that's the rule, and someone wants to be petty about it, they will.

 

[sbpoolleague]

No That Rule IS Stupid

Call pocket / slop counts.
Jump cue OK / not OK.
8-ball break win / no win.
Round robin / match format.
Handicap / no handicap.
I respect all of these and many other rule and league differences.
But sorry, pocket markers are simply ridiculous.
And in the BCAPL, if a shot is obvious, you never have to call it, including the 8-ball.

All I know is if I ever found myself playing in a BCAPL league, and I quickly knocked in a duck 8-ball that was hanging in the pocket without first calling the pocket, and my opponent jumped up and down in glee claiming he won the game because I didn't point my stupid cue at the pocket, I'd want to shoot him. I wouldn't shoot him, even if I had a gun. Which I do.

It's not the rule that is stupid, it's the person who can't play within the spirit of the rule. I would hate to have to give up my turn because I didn't call the pocket on ANY duck, not just the 8-Ball. But if that's the rule, and someone wants to be petty about it, they will.

 

[justadub]

Call pocket / slop counts.
Jump cue OK / not OK.
8-ball break win / no win.
Round robin / match format.
Handicap / no handicap.
I respect all of these and many other rule and league differences.
But sorry, pocket markers are simply ridiculous.
And in the BCAPL, if a shot is obvious, you never have to call it, including the 8-ball.

Cool. Looks like you're all set.

Don't play if you can't follow the rules. Unless you get to make the rules.

Marking the pocket isn't any more difficult to understand and remember than any other rule. Sorry it offends you so much.

 

[Donny Lutz]

All I know is if I ever found myself playing in a BCAPL league, and I quickly knocked in a duck 8-ball that was hanging in the pocket without first calling the pocket, and my opponent jumped up and down in glee claiming he won the game because I didn't point my stupid cue at the pocket, I'd want to shoot him. I wouldn't shoot him, even if I had a gun. Which I do.

It's not the rule that is stupid, it's the person who can't play within the spirit of the rule. I would hate to have to give up my turn because I didn't call the pocket on ANY duck, not just the 8-Ball. But if that's the rule, and someone wants to be petty about it, they will.

You don't have to call pocket on every "duck" in BCAPL, only shots that are not obvious.

Don't you have to still mark your pocket for the 8 in APA? Even it it's a "duck"?

 

[APA Operator]

You don't have to call pocket on every "duck" in BCAPL, only shots that are not obvious.

Don't you have to still mark your pocket for the 8 in APA? Even it it's a "duck"?

Only if you're playing someone who can't play within the spirit of the rules. I see matches played all the time where not a single pocket marker is placed on the table. Go watch the Masters championship in Vegas, see how many pocket markers are used there. The rule is there to avoid arguments as to the intended pocket. If nobody argues it's not an issue.

So in BCAPL, what happens if the shooter and the opponent don't agree on whether a shot was obvious? I ask because players who can't play within the spirit of the rules are not exclusive to APA. It seems like someone could abuse the "obvious shot" clause in the BCAPL rules the same way they could abuse the "mark the pocket" rule in APA.

 

[hang-the-9]

Definitely would have been shorter, but much less accurate. There are some fine players in the APA, and there are some downright terrible players in the BCA, and vice versa. I have played APA for almost 20 years. The rules are fine. It is not extremely common that matches are determined by the rules of either. Most of the emphasis in APA is on finishing the match in a timely fashion. Thus many of the rules are specifically geared towards this idea. I really doesn't take much imagination to take a dump on the APA, or really any league system, or heck why not some silly tournament formats, heck I think slop counts in the WPC no?

I played an 8 ball match with a very good bar table player named Jeff Sargent on a bar table in Vegas recently. It was an absolute dogfight of a match, and came down to the bitter end. I ran out from a great bank at hill hill for the win. Jeff and I had some friendly words after, and both remarked what a great match. I thoroughly enjoyed the match, and would have if I had lost. We both just played awesome, and really tried hard to the end. I can't speak for Jeff, but I'm fairly certain he isn't a kid. I'm not either. I won $1000 for that match alone. Without APA I would not have had that experience. I could name a bunch more. To be fair, this is APA singles at the national level, but I think the people that believe the rules determine the outcome of matches probably shouldn't play league, or do really anything competitive.

While I *personally* prefer some of the rules of BCA, I have no real issue with APA rules. In fact, I like the familiarity and simplicity of the rules. Also, I strongly prefer match play to rack play, which is a major reason I like APA better.

How long have you played APA? I am assuming you have based on your familiarity with the rules and knowledge of exactly how those rules play out in an actually competitive context.

Point is, you are welcome to your opinions and any way you wish to express them here. It's just that saying APA rules are for kids just sounds...well...like something a kid would say.

I had a few good "It would have been shorter to just say..." comments ready, but I realized that this would not be a very friendly approach.

In any case good luck playing with the "players".

KMRUNOUT

Anyone can play by the rules of any league, that does not make the rules good or not silly when compared to the rules the real pool world uses.

If someone said you had to rub your head and jump on one foot 3 times before you could enter your car it won't really do any damage to anyone. But won't make it any less silly of a rule. APA is glorified bar rules and we all know how people feel about those.

The better players don't care much about the rules, they just pocket the balls and take the money. I would bet however if you were given a choice between which rules to use in a tournament, you would not pick APA rules.

 

[gxman]

My buddy and I was shooting 8ball yesterday. He shot the object ball, it went in. The cue ball subsequently bumped the 8ball in as well. He still had more balls on the table.

Can someone help with the ruling on this?

 

[hang-the-9]

My buddy and I was shooting 8ball yesterday. He shot the object ball, it went in. The cue ball subsequently bumped the 8ball in as well. He still had more balls on the table.

Can someone help with the ruling on this?

Does not really belong in this thread, but any 8 ball made out of order is a loss of game. You can be shooting your last ball and make the 8 on the same shot and you lose.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Anyone can play by the rules of any league, that does not make the rules good or not silly when compared to the rules the real pool world uses.

If someone said you had to rub your head and jump on one foot 3 times before you could enter your car it won't really do any damage to anyone. But won't make it any less silly of a rule. APA is glorified bar rules and we all know how people feel about those.

The better players don't care much about the rules, they just pocket the balls and take the money. I would bet however if you were given a choice between which rules to use in a tournament, you would not pick APA rules.

Some analogy issues here...

First, the jumping on one foot idea is not a great analogy, because jumping on one foot has *nothing* to do with getting in your car. It is completely arbitrary, so the fact that it is "silly" is essentially redundant and irrelevant.

The APA rules are as close to the *opposite* of bar rules that I can think of. In any bar rules I've ever played, you must call your shots, cue ball is in the kitchen on a scratch, you don't have to make a legal hit, table is open after the break, etc...perhaps the part about APA being played *in* bars is throwing you for a loop?

As for the "real pool world", the APA has almost 300,000 members. It is a *significant* part of what pool is in the US. If that isn't "real"...

As for your bet on what rules *I* would take for a tourney? You would lose that bet. I happen to think the APA rules work fine for tourneys. They are simple, promote *fast* play, and are clearly documented. I play plenty of 9 ball tourneys in which no shots are called. I don't see a problem with that. Almost every time the player that played better wins. Even in short races. (Or rather the one who plays better for their skill level if it is handicapped). Assuming we are talking 8 ball, APA rules are fine. BCA rules are fine too. I don't particularly care, because I don't think it has a huge outcome on the game. There will definitely be more break and runs in BCA rules, that is one thing for sure. APA promotes better quality 8 ball breaking if you want to run packages. Particularly on the bar table.

You can of course think whatever you want. I just don't see the need to insult the rules and the people that play by them. Were you inappropriately touched by the APA rules one time? Curious why you have *such* a negative view that you thought it important enough to mention it the way you did?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

My buddy and I was shooting 8ball yesterday. He shot the object ball, it went in. The cue ball subsequently bumped the 8ball in as well. He still had more balls on the table.

Can someone help with the ruling on this?

APA rules: your buddy lost

BCA rules: your buddy lost

Bar rules: your buddy lost

Pretty sure that is how it is in all rules.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Billiardsfan]

There is NO limit to the number of times a player can break in APA. They break until they make a legal break or scratch on an otherwise non-legal break. The breaker must contact the first or second balls in the rack and then at least four balls must hit a rail OR a ball must be pocketed. If this criteria is not met, AND the breaker does not scratch, then it is a re-rack and re-break by the same player. Scratch on a legal break in BCA and it is BIH whereas in the APA it is in the kitchen, with the exception being nine ball where it is BIH as well.

The eight ball marking rule is generally sidestepped by most players at or above a skill level 5. You simply ask your opponent if they are alright with just calling the pocket and everyone is fine. I have been playing APA for 21 years and have only run into two people that said they wanted to mark the pocket.

You can push out in nine ball after the break in BCA where the APA does not allow this. My understanding is that this rule exists due to the gearing to the beginner player level. The K.I.S.S. idea.

Oh, and somebody said there is no handicapping in BCA but I argue that there is. At least in our local leagues. Your individual handicap is based off of the number of points you earn per game (0-10) and your team handicap is the combined total of all four. You either give points away or receive with the rare break even.

In the APA you lag for the opening break where in the BCA you get to break on the two rounds that your team breaks.

In BCA, an object ball knocked on the floor is a foul and the ball(s) stay down where in the APA it is not a foul unless the shooter fouled in some other fashion. In APA eight ball, the balls would be immediately spotted unless the shooter also pocketed one of their object balls at the same time, in that case the ball is NOT spotted until they miss or, if the ball knocked off the table is their suit, until they have shot all of their other object balls and then it is spotted and they continue their turn at the table.

There is no coaching in BCA where in APA there is limited coaching per game.

In BCA it is a foul to touch or move or change the path of any object ball during shots and in the APA, unless the cue ball comes in contact with a moved ball, there is no foul.

If I am not mistaken the BCA often uses the three foul rule where that does not exist in the APA.

 

[dabarbr]

For those that think that the APA rules are geared more to the beginner and lower level players. You think that what you make is what you got is easier than open after the break, then you need to rethink that.

A good player will break and run many more racks playing open after the break and so would the lesser players. It takes a lot more skill to win games with "you got what you make" on the break. If the slop part was taken away from APA rules then their rules would be more conducive for the better eight ball players. Notice I said eight ball players. That's because there is a lot of strategy that is unique to playing eight ball.

It also takes more skill to take a shot on the eight and keep from scratching. BIH anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break makes the game even easier and is in place to give the lesser player a better chance to win that game. In my opinion I would prefer playing with the APA rules if they replaced the slop to call pocket.

 

[hang-the-9]

Some analogy issues here...

First, the jumping on one foot idea is not a great analogy, because jumping on one foot has *nothing* to do with getting in your car. It is completely arbitrary, so the fact that it is "silly" is essentially redundant and irrelevant.

The APA rules are as close to the *opposite* of bar rules that I can think of. In any bar rules I've ever played, you must call your shots, cue ball is in the kitchen on a scratch, you don't have to make a legal hit, table is open after the break, etc...perhaps the part about APA being played *in* bars is throwing you for a loop?

As for the "real pool world", the APA has almost 300,000 members. It is a *significant* part of what pool is in the US. If that isn't "real"...

As for your bet on what rules *I* would take for a tourney? You would lose that bet. I happen to think the APA rules work fine for tourneys. They are simple, promote *fast* play, and are clearly documented. I play plenty of 9 ball tourneys in which no shots are called. I don't see a problem with that. Almost every time the player that played better wins. Even in short races. (Or rather the one who plays better for their skill level if it is handicapped). Assuming we are talking 8 ball, APA rules are fine. BCA rules are fine too. I don't particularly care, because I don't think it has a huge outcome on the game. There will definitely be more break and runs in BCA rules, that is one thing for sure. APA promotes better quality 8 ball breaking if you want to run packages. Particularly on the bar table.

You can of course think whatever you want. I just don't see the need to insult the rules and the people that play by them. Were you inappropriately touched by the APA rules one time? Curious why you have *such* a negative view that you thought it important enough to mention it the way you did?

KMRUNOUT

You are saying that it's OK to try to re-break when you mess that up? Or it being not a foul if you knock a ball off a table? Or not calling a push or a double-hit or any other number of things they let the players get away with? Those things are good for the integrety of the game at any level above the beginners?

I don't really care who plays by what rules, but the APA rules should not be jumbled into any type of general pool rules and they sure as heck should be be used by any advanced players. I am in a TAP league now and there are some rules there I don't like, but at least they generally play by mostly the same rules as used by the real pool world. And by real pool world I mean those rules that the professional sactioned tournaments use not what the masses that play pool in bars use. The only league I have seen that comes close to the real pool rules is the USAPL and BCAPL. USAPL also has the best handicapping system I have seen, it goes from 30-125 instead of 2-7 and there is no dropping of handicap levels to speed things up so you don't get a 3 playing a 7 but they play a 2-6 race which clearly is to the benefit of the lower player.

 

[lorider]

almost every one mentioned differences in general.

i have played apa and bcap so lets use my thought process using identical scenarios during an actual match.

me breaking...
apa
made a solid....damn ...not a single open shot on a solid. hey i can kick the one ball in the side pocket and if succesfull i got a pretty good lay out after that.

bcapl.
made a solid....damn ..not a single open shot on a solid..... hey ... i got several stripes wide open and a pretty good lay out....think i will take those.

which scenario is easier ? bcapl of course.

my opponent breaking. ... he scratched.

apa.
got start in the kitchen. solids are layed out pretty good except for 2 ball locked together by the foot spot. well if i knock the one in the side and use right english the cue ball should travel down breaking those 2 balls up.

bcapl.
same scenario.
gonna take solids because of the better layout but i got those 2 balls tied up by the foot spot. all i gotta do is take the cue ball down ther and shoot one of them in and i got a good run after wards.

which is easier ? bcapl of course.

damn i left my self bad on the 8.... definite scratch shot if i shoot it wrong.

apa
i shoot it soft...the 8 dont fall but the cue ball does...damn i lost this rack.

bcapl.

i shoot it soft...the 8 dont fall but the cue ball does....no problem... if my opponent dont run out i can make that hanger.

which is easier ? bcapl of course.

dang my opponent played a lock down safe...no way to get to my last ball by kicking.

apa
i been practicing full cue jumps and 50/50 i can make it.

bcapl

heck i will just get my jump cue and make that easy jump.

which is easier ? bcapl of course.

last match of the night.

apa

we are down by 2 points. i have to shut my opponent down 4-0 in a 4-4 race for us to win by 1 point.

bcapl

we only need 1 point to win....my last ball is hanging in a pocket blocked by one of my opponents balls. all i gotta do is hit his ball ...knocking mine in and we win.

which is easier / bcapl of course.

yep... apa is for kids as one poster said .

 

[nine_ball6970]

For those that think that the APA rules are geared more to the beginner and lower level players. You think that what you make is what you got is easier than open after the break, then you need to rethink that.

A good player will break and run many more racks playing open after the break and so would the lesser players. It takes a lot more skill to win games with "you got what you make" on the break. If the slop part was taken away from APA rules then their rules would be more conducive for the better eight ball players. Notice I said eight ball players. That's because there is a lot of strategy that is unique to playing eight ball.

It also takes more skill to take a shot on the eight and keep from scratching. BIH anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break makes the game even easier and is in place to give the lesser player a better chance to win that game. In my opinion I would prefer playing with the APA rules if they replaced the slop to call pocket.

Well said.

 

[lorider]

maybe my opinion on what constitutes a slop shot is skewed by years of playing bar rules but in my opinion true slop shots are allowed in every league.

to me , what constitutes a slop shot is a shot that does not take the path the shooter intended.

players in bcapl...napa...tap or whatever league can boast all they want about call your pocket vs slop but the fact is ...slop is allowed ...as long as it goes in the pocket you called.

me; hey you got lucky on that slop where you banked wide and it caromed off another ball and it went in .

apa player : grinning sheepishly ...yea i got lucky on that slop shot.


me; hey you got lucky on that slop where you banked wide and it caromed off another ball and it went in.

bcapl player. that was not slop...it went in the pocket i called.

me; yea ...what ever .

 

[hang-the-9]

almost every one mentioned differences in general.

i have played apa and bcap so lets use my thought process using identical scenarios during an actual match.

me breaking...
apa
made a solid....damn ...not a single open shot on a solid. hey i can kick the one ball in the side pocket and if succesfull i got a pretty good lay out after that.

bcapl.
made a solid....damn ..not a single open shot on a solid..... hey ... i got several stripes wide open and a pretty good lay out....think i will take those.

which scenario is easier ? bcapl of course.

my opponent breaking. ... he scratched.

apa.
got start in the kitchen. solids are layed out pretty good except for 2 ball locked together by the foot spot. well if i knock the one in the side and use right english the cue ball should travel down breaking those 2 balls up.

bcapl.
same scenario.
gonna take solids because of the better layout but i got those 2 balls tied up by the foot spot. all i gotta do is take the cue ball down ther and shoot one of them in and i got a good run after wards.

which is easier ? bcapl of course.

damn i left my self bad on the 8.... definite scratch shot if i shoot it wrong.

apa
i shoot it soft...the 8 dont fall but the cue ball does...damn i lost this rack.

bcapl.

i shoot it soft...the 8 dont fall but the cue ball does....no problem... if my opponent dont run out i can make that hanger.

which is easier ? bcapl of course.

dang my opponent played a lock down safe...no way to get to my last ball by kicking.

apa
i been practicing full cue jumps and 50/50 i can make it.

bcapl

heck i will just get my jump cue and make that easy jump.

which is easier ? bcapl of course.

last match of the night.

apa

we are down by 2 points. i have to shut my opponent down 4-0 in a 4-4 race for us to win by 1 point.

bcapl

we only need 1 point to win....my last ball is hanging in a pocket blocked by one of my opponents balls. all i gotta do is hit his ball ...knocking mine in and we win.

which is easier / bcapl of course.

yep... apa is for kids as one poster said .

The thing is, in all those scenarios, the person that should be getting the benefit of the situation is getting the shaft so to speak. Make a ball but no clear shot on what you made. Sorry, you're screwed for making a ball. Low skill player smacks balls around making a mess of the table, not a foul though, incoming player can deal with it. Player plays a push shot to to 3 rails off a ball to get shape for his next one, gets a nice reward for an illegal shot. You scratch on the 8, but it stays up, guy still has to make his balls instead of an automatic win, why would that not be better? You have to earn the win, not get it handed to you.

I don't know about your last scenario, if you hit his ball first and yours drops, that's a ball in hand foul on you for hitting the wrong group not a win.

I have never seen the APA be better than any alternative rules unless the goal is to give the lesser player the advantage by not having to care about something as basic as what constitutes a legal hit or a foul.

Heck in TAP, to avoid having a push or a double hit foul called, all you need to do is to ATTEMPT to avoid the foul LOL. How silly is that? You don't actually need to NOT foul, just trying to not foul is good enough.

 

[buckshotshoey]

One more thing I didn't see more mentioned.....is the 8 ball neutral after the break (untill a legal ball is pocketed) in BCA? In APA it is not.

 

[sbpoolleague]

One more thing I didn't see more mentioned.....is the 8 ball neutral after the break (untill a legal ball is pocketed) in BCA? In APA it is not.

No the 8 is never neutral in the BCAPL, so there is one rule that is the same as the APA.

 

[lorider]

The thing is, in all those scenarios, the person that should be getting the benefit of the situation is getting the shaft so to speak. Make a ball but no clear shot on what you made. Sorry, you're screwed for making a ball. Low skill player smacks balls around making a mess of the table, not a foul though, incoming player can deal with it. Player plays a push shot to to 3 rails off a ball to get shape for his next one, gets a nice reward for an illegal shot. You scratch on the 8, but it stays up, guy still has to make his balls instead of an automatic win, why would that not be better? You have to earn the win, not get it handed to you.

I don't know about your last scenario, if you hit his ball first and yours drops, that's a ball in hand foul on you for hitting the wrong group not a win.

I have never seen the APA be better than any alternative rules unless the goal is to give the lesser player the advantage by not having to care about something as basic as what constitutes a legal hit or a foul.

Heck in TAP, to avoid having a push or a double hit foul called, all you need to do is to ATTEMPT to avoid the foul LOL. How silly is that? You don't actually need to NOT foul, just trying to not foul is good enough.

can i ask why do you play pool ?

i play because its a difficult game to master.

maybe i am in the minority... i like the challenge of a difficult run out. i like the challenge of executing a well shot kick versus taking the easy way out and choosing the other suit of balls as described above.

i dont look at any of the above scenarios i posted as getting the shaft... i look at them as being what makes the game difficult and makes it more rewarding when you achieve a win over your opponent.

i like the challenge of playing in a race format vs a round robin format .you mentioned real pool... is not a race to a certain number of wins more like real pool vs the round robin format which most bcapl leagues play under >

is not apa 8 ball more like real pool vs bcapl points based format ?

a lot of people state the apa is for beginners...does not all the above scenarios i posted prove that bcapl has rules in place making it easier to run out ?

i believe you posted previously lamenting the fact apa lowers the races for vs their handicaps. ex; a 3 has to win 2 racks.

yes it does give a lower level player a chance to win once in a while....what is wrong with that?

in my last scenario i brought up....yes you are right. it does result in a bih for your opponent. but that does not change the fact that your team can win the matched based on an illegal hit.is that real pool ?