to all you apa bashers...and all league haters also

[one stroke]

So then just about every player from old pool rooms should be pro speed by now.

That's one of the biggest fallacies around, both that you have to play better players to improve and that handicaps stunt a player's growth.

No question about it ,, the fact is league play accelerates players ability by a huge margin because someone better is usually coaching ,, it's very rare a better players will ever teach you anything ,, like a friend a mine told me they will teach u every thing you know and nothing they know in other words ,, learn it for your self ,,

1

 

[takeitdown]

So then just about every player from old pool rooms should be pro speed by now.

That's one of the biggest fallacies around, both that you have to play better players to improve and that handicaps stunt a player's growth.

So beating housewives on Valley bar boxes is how you get there? Somehow I think that's a fallacy.

 

[takeitdown]

So gamblers never ask for a spot (handicap)? They always play even?

Cool. I see now....

Bud I'd give you the 6 out and take all your lunch money...what are you ranked in APA? You do this humble pie anti gambling pro league thing. That will certainly pay a lot of bills. Might even make a great book someday.

 

[takeitdown]

Excellent points here. I look at it like baseball. If kids are only taught enough to not quite beat their teachers, the game will degrade. We have a huge wealth if ball players because proper instructions start at 4 years old in t-ball and continue on from there. Pretending that the only way to get better is to continually get your ass handed to you by better players is crazy.

I look at league pool like miniature golf. Yeah you got a club a ball and a hole. But the game is nothing compared to big golf. Just a shadow of what the game has been and can be.

APA does jack to promote real pool. Just a business that doesn't pay back hardly 40 percent of the dues in return. It's a goldmine...the product they sell is a game that has been around for hundreds of years and nobody owns.

 

[BeachBum2012]

I look at league pool like miniature golf. Yeah you got a club a ball and a hole. But the game is nothing compared to big golf. Just a shadow of what the game has been and can be.

APA does jack to promote real pool. Just a business that doesn't pay back hardly 40 percent of the dues in return. It's a goldmine...the product they sell is a game that has been around for hundreds of years and nobody owns.

As absolutely ridiculous as that comparison is I must say that if the pool scene was more like a miniature golf scene the sport might not be dying. Families could bring their children and teach young people to enjoy the game rather than avoiding the image of smoke filled rooms of degenerate gamblers.

 

[Ih82luz]

The handicaps annoy me sometimes when I know someone is below where they should be on purpose but for the most part I just play my game and don't worry about it.

Leagues or sports that have a handicap, will have sandbaggers. What I don't understand is how APA establishes a handicap.

In golf, you play 20 rounds and they take the average of your lowest 5 scores. Will people sandbag? Yes. They're a jackass. But it allows some sort of equalizer when playing the game.

I for one enjoy playing different people. I play to win. If I have to spot someone 21 points in 9 ball, and win-I'm happy. If I lose by 3 points, I should have played better.

My goal is to get better, play the last match that has to be won, and have a laugh or two during the night.

 

[Banks]

No question about it ,, the fact is league play accelerates players ability by a huge margin because someone better is usually coaching ,, it's very rare a better players will ever teach you anything ,, like a friend a mine told me they will teach u every thing you know and nothing they know in other words ,, learn it for your self ,,

1

I'll help anyone that asks. The problem I find is that many things are part of a progression, so you can explain something, but to grasp the how, why and when may take more time.

So beating housewives on Valley bar boxes is how you get there? Somehow I think that's a fallacy.

Actually, that's not far from how I've played. Hanging out in a bar, drinking, playing on valleys and playing anyone that came along. I play okay sometimes - well enough that I'm satisfied with my approach.

APA does jack to promote real pool. Just a business that doesn't pay back hardly 40 percent of the dues in return. It's a goldmine...the product they sell is a game that has been around for hundreds of years and nobody owns.

Meanwhile, you're a regular ambassador of the game, right?

You think people should fork over good cash for lame sets, pay premiums for table time, but have an issue with beginners and hobbyists only getting back $3 of $8 for having a night out. Come on now. If most people even cared about the money, they wouldn't be so successful. They're having fun and you apparently can't handle that.

 

[BWColeman]

OK here is my 2 cents on the subject

While I am not a fan of the APA , I really don't have anything against it either , in my area it is by far the most successful league , and in many cases is what keeps the pool rooms open.

any league will have its issues , I don't care which one you care to mention

I don't play APA , or any other league because of my work schedule , but if not for that I probably would , I can see where the competition would be there trying to outrun the handicap.

I know a few of the APA 6 and 7s in my area who play pretty sporty and are not afraid at all to gamble , I did attend the APA regional event in my area to watch my stepson and his team play and had a great time sweating the matches

Even picked up a few bucks matching up on the practice tables

So I can not bash the APA as they seem to be far more of a success story at least in Southeast Texas than many of the other leagues that have come and gone over the years

 

[justadub]

Bud I'd give you the 6 out and take all your lunch money...what are you ranked in APA? You do this humble pie anti gambling pro league thing. That will certainly pay a lot of bills. Might even make a great book someday.

Ah, here we go. I've been waiting for this. Instead of a rational response in the debate, lets go back to trying to bet in order to resolve the argument. Nice. Standard methodology amongst the big-shot gamblers here on AZB.

In the scheme of things, I probably suck. You'd likely have to give me the three or four to make it even a sporting proposition. I'm a middle of the pack APA 5 in this neck of the woods, where we don't have rampant sandbagging. That might make me a 3 in some places, to hear people describe it here on AZB.

There, does that make you feel better? Does that give your arguments any more validity than mine? Boy, you sure showed me, didn't you?

I'm not interested in writing a book, and I pay my bills by working for a living and not gambling my earnings away playing pool, or poker, or golf bets, or the like. Good for you if you can afford to, and that gives you enjoyment. I get plenty of enjoyment, and plenty of challenge playing league. For a lot less money than gambling would cost me, in the long run. And I could look myself in the mirror, too.

I can have a discussion with people without it leading to "oh yeah, why don't you bet on it?", too...

 

[takeitdown]

I'll help anyone that asks. The problem I find is that many things are part of a progression, so you can explain something, but to grasp the how, why and when may take more time.



Actually, that's not far from how I've played. Hanging out in a bar, drinking, playing on valleys and playing anyone that came along. I play okay sometimes - well enough that I'm satisfied with my approach.



Meanwhile, you're a regular ambassador of the game, right?

You think people should fork over good cash for lame sets, pay premiums for table time, but have an issue with beginners and hobbyists only getting back $3 of $8 for having a night out. Come on now. If most people even cared about the money, they wouldn't be so successful. They're having fun and you apparently can't handle that.

What i cant handle is guys like these who think playing league makes them players. Like night and day.

 

[takeitdown]

Ah, here we go. I've been waiting for this. Instead of a rational response in the debate, lets go back to trying to bet in order to resolve the argument. Nice. Standard methodology amongst the big-shot gamblers here on AZB.

In the scheme of things, I probably suck. You'd likely have to give me the three or four to make it even a sporting proposition. I'm a middle of the pack APA 5 in this neck of the woods, where we don't have rampant sandbagging. That might make me a 3 in some places, to hear people describe it here on AZB.

There, does that make you feel better? Does that give your arguments any more validity than mine? Boy, you sure showed me, didn't you?

I'm not interested in writing a book, and I pay my bills by working for a living and not gambling my earnings away playing pool, or poker, or golf bets, or the like. Good for you if you can afford to, and that gives you enjoyment. I get plenty of enjoyment, and plenty of challenge playing league. For a lot less money than gambling would cost me, in the long run. And I could look myself in the mirror, too.

I can have a discussion with people without it leading to "oh yeah, why don't you bet on it?", too...

I like waking up with OPM...other people's money. You should try it sometime.

 

[justadub]

I like waking up with OPM...other people's money. You should try it sometime.

Not at the risk of not having the money that I worked so hard for, thanks.

Wife, kids in college, mortgage....responsibility.

 

[hang-the-9]

I am still trying to figure out how the diminishing pro tours have killed pool for everyone else? I mean, didn't most of the old school players stay away from tournaments anyway? I thought they were all too busy busting some poor unsuspecting sucker?

And how is helping a handful of pros make a living going to do more for the game as a whole than organizations that permit anyone of any skill level to play, garners new interest and promotes having a good time? How does feeding a select few benefit the masses? How does going and paying for your lumps entice new players? The answers are simple: they don't. The US could blow away Europe in the Mosconi Cup and it wouldn't impact pool in this country one iota. But bring more organized play to the general public...different story.

Once again, exactly what are we talking about when we say "growing the sport or pool"? Selling more cues? Just having more people play for no reason other than more people are playing pool? Or having a pro tour that is followed by people? Having people go to tournaments outside of league? Those last two I see very very very little happening from league players and to me that is what "growing pool" means.

Sure having companies that sponsor tournaments get more money from sales is great, but I don't think MLB would care one bit if there were 100 million players playing baseball every week if none of them went to see the pro teams and bought jerseys with players names on them or watched the games on TV. MLB would fold if their idea of growing the sport is like what most people thing about when they say "growing pool". Without pro events, TV coverage, live stream support, turnament attendance, there is no pool. 40 million drunk fat guys taking 30 minutes to play a game of 8 ball is not improving anything. Out of all the APA, USAPL, BCAPL, TAP and god knows how many other leauges, TAR could barely get a thousand people to watch the best players on earth go head to head.

Do the top Scabble players benefit from you or me playing Scrabble every week? No, they benefit from those that follow them and bring in money to help pay for their tournaments.

So how can anyone say leagues grow pool when only a tiny percentage of league players do anything with pool outside of league? And most of those that do were already interested in the sport before league. Leauge players for the most part help grow league revenue. The only league I know that is involed with promoting pool as a real sport is the BCAPL and USAPL through Mark Griffin. He was involed with TAR, provided several good pro events alongside the league tournaments and is even an active poster on AZB.

 

[StuartTKelley]

Thing is Stuart under the old structure of pool room hierarchy, by taking lumps to learn and not monster handicaps, you would improve. It's the league mentality itself that retards growth.

I certainly don't have anything against guys doing what they do whether it be gambling, or anything else done in the pool halls as it was in the old days and still is now.None of that is what brings all of these folks who play league out to play every week. I'm a 7 in APA so I don't get a monster handicap unless it's against me. I'm happy with where I am and in the arena I play in. This where I judge myself. I could improve and don't have anything against the idea but that's on me. If I don't, I don't need to hear some blowhard running his mouth about "Boy, I could give you the 4 ..." I don't care. I have no illusions about where I am on the hierarchy. I guess my point is, yes, we can all improve but that has to come from within each of us as individuals and it has to be for whatever reason makes sense for us. Leagues haven't saved pool but they have given a format to a vast amount of folks who enjoy competition, socializing, and hopefully the game of pool.

 

[3andstop]

Wow ... long thread!

Everyone has a different opinion on all aspects of league pool.

Here's mine. As a former pool room owner, league was a necessary evil IMO.

I say "necessary" because league was vital to paying the bills, not from pool time, but from drinks.

I say "evil" from the standpoint of being a player and not appreciating the banger mentality, loud outbursts and general lack of etiquette I was sensitive to as a player.

League night reminded me of THIS! :wink:

 

[Banks]

What i cant handle is guys like these who think playing league makes them players. Like night and day.

How about answering the question that you posed? What have you done for pool?

You must be a blast to hang out with. "You think having a jersey makes you a fan?" "You think getting a couple of recipes down makes you a cook?" If anything, people like you are bad for the game.

 

[NitPicker]

Once again, exactly what are we talking about when we say "growing the sport or pool"? Selling more cues? Just having more people play for no reason other than more people are playing pool? Or having a pro tour that is followed by people? Having people go to tournaments outside of league? Those last two I see very very very little happening from league players and to me that is what "growing pool" means.

Sure having companies that sponsor tournaments get more money from sales is great, but I don't think MLB would care one bit if there were 100 million players playing baseball every week if none of them went to see the pro teams and bought jerseys with players names on them or watched the games on TV. MLB would fold if their idea of growing the sport is like what most people thing about when they say "growing pool". Without pro events, TV coverage, live stream support, turnament attendance, there is no pool. 40 million drunk fat guys taking 30 minutes to play a game of 8 ball is not improving anything. Out of all the APA, USAPL, BCAPL, TAP and god knows how many other leauges, TAR could barely get a thousand people to watch the best players on earth go head to head.

Do the top Scabble players benefit from you or me playing Scrabble every week? No, they benefit from those that follow them and bring in money to help pay for their tournaments.

So how can anyone say leagues grow pool when only a tiny percentage of league players do anything with pool outside of league? And most of those that do were already interested in the sport before league. Leauge players for the most part help grow league revenue. The only league I know that is involed with promoting pool as a real sport is the BCAPL and USAPL through Mark Griffin. He was involed with TAR, provided several good pro events alongside the league tournaments and is even an active poster on AZB.

You're kidding here, right? Growth of the game = growth in the business. You seem to think baseball and the like only exist because their are pro leagues. Those events fill stadiums of hundreds of thousands and TV viewers in the millions. Why?

Let's just stick with your MLB example. Kids start around 5 yrs old or so playing t-ball. Baseballs sold by Rawlings, Riddell helmets, Mizumo gloves, Louiville bats, Nike cleats, etc. all start getting purchased here. These are the same vendors that support MLB. That's just by the players. The organization providing playing fields have whole other sets of merchandise that also get purchased to upkeep stadiums. But let's stay with the players. Many of these kids continue playing little league (uh, oh...I see a trend here), then babe ruth, and in school jv and/or varsity. All the while keeping baseball and athletic vendors rolling in sales all throughout their lives. If they go to college, there's even more big time money being spent on baseball. Not everyone will make it to the MLB. But you still have thousands of people playing local baseball, or when their older, softball leagues with buddies. The list goes on. It's the interest and the money invested for themselves that have people interested to fund pro sports.

Don't get it twisted.

The APA has been around since 1981 and has over a quarter million members. throughout the country. It's the biggest and longest active pool league in the US. It's not the only pool league in the country. Someone will have to explain how the pros will give this many people and more the ability to participate, learn and enjoy the game. To say the APA and other leagues do nothing to promote the game of pool, is seriously lacking any common sense.

 

[NitPicker]

1981...the APA started before The Color of Money movie and has outlasted every pro tour and organized pro event. It's older than many posters on here. 250,000 members...does a pro tour even draw this many spectators, let alone this many participants? These numbers come from one amateur organization, and it's not even the only one.

I rest my case.

 

[BeachBum2012]

You're kidding here, right? Growth of the game = growth in the business. You seem to think baseball and the like only exist because their are pro leagues. Those events fill stadiums of hundreds of thousands and TV viewers in the millions. Why?

Let's just stick with your MLB example. Kids start around 5 yrs old or so playing t-ball. Baseballs sold by Rawlings, Riddell helmets, Mizumo gloves, Louiville bats, Nike cleats, etc. all start getting purchased here. These are the same vendors that support MLB. That's just by the players. The organization providing playing fields have whole other sets of merchandise that also get purchased to upkeep stadiums. But let's stay with the players. Many of these kids continue playing little league (uh, oh...I see a trend here), then babe ruth, and in school jv and/or varsity. All the while keeping baseball and athletic vendors rolling in sales all throughout their lives. If they go to college, there's even more big time money being spent on baseball. Not everyone will make it to the MLB. But you still have thousands of people playing local baseball, or when their older, softball leagues with buddies. The list goes on. It's the interest and the money invested for themselves that have people interested to fund pro sports.

Don't get it twisted.

The APA has been around since 1981 and has over a quarter million members. throughout the country. It's the biggest and longest active pool league in the US. It's not the only pool league in the country. Someone will have to explain how the pros will give this many people and more the ability to participate, learn and enjoy the game. To say the APA and other leagues do nothing to promote the game of pool, is seriously lacking any common sense.

You've got it all wrong. The only real baseball players all got hustled the other 5 year olds on the sandlot until they got good enough, by losing, to become the ones taking the lunch money in middle school. Little league does nothing for the sport of baseball. The only thing that keeps MLB going is betting your mortgage payment on the Mets to win the Series.

All joking aside, you are spot on in your assessment. Millions of children dream of making it to the MLB, I know I did. Tens of children dream of making it to the pro pool tour. You want to grow the sport of pool, make a family friendly atmosphere that allows kids to get involved at a younger age. The more kids we get interested, the more they'll want to watch the pros play. The more they watch the pros play, the more they want to use the same equipment. The more equipment that gets bought, the more pro sponsorship steps up. It needs to be fixed from the ground level.

Leagues are full of people who enjoy the game. They are people of all different walks of life, different ages, different skill levels, and they are all out there playing. I'm also a 7 in APA and I know I'm no pro, just like because I play a pretty good first base in my softball league it doesn't make me Albert Pujols. The worst players in the leagues can be pretty bad, but they're out there having fun. The best players in the leagues, I'd match up against any of the "real players" that are constantly anti-league any day. The truth is that its an ameture league. It is supposed to be fun and for the most part it is.

As for the common sense, there isn't any. People often forget that what they think makes them "real players" in the sport of pool, gets actual real players(Pete Rose) banned for life from their sports. If you want pool to be a legit sport, with a legit pro circuit, the pool community should start acting like one.

 

[krupa]

Once again, exactly what are we talking about when we say "growing the sport or pool"? Selling more cues? Just having more people play for no reason other than more people are playing pool? Or having a pro tour that is followed by people? Having people go to tournaments outside of league? Those last two I see very very very little happening from league players and to me that is what "growing pool" means.

The problem is that no one wants to pay to watch pros play pool. How many on this forum only watch matches on youtube or free streams?

Sure having companies that sponsor tournaments get more money from sales is great, but I don't think MLB would care one bit if there were 100 million players playing baseball every week if none of them went to see the pro teams and bought jerseys with players names on them or watched the games on TV. MLB would fold if their idea of growing the sport is like what most people thing about when they say "growing pool".

You can't compare pool with any established, successful professional sport. Professional sports are spectator sports. People who have never played football will watch NFL and college football games. The same with baseball. No one wants to watch pool. They may get interested, but I think they have to play the game first to understand and appreciate what they are watching.

Without pro events, TV coverage, live stream support, turnament attendance, there is no pool. 40 million drunk fat guys taking 30 minutes to play a game of 8 ball is not improving anything. Out of all the APA, USAPL, BCAPL, TAP and god knows how many other leauges, TAR could barely get a thousand people to watch the best players on earth go head to head.

And so what does that tell you? Just because people used to make a living as a "professional pool player" doesn't mean it has to continue. It's harsh but true. There's no earthly reason why there has to be a professional pool tour.

Do the top Scabble players benefit from you or me playing Scrabble every week? No, they benefit from those that follow them and bring in money to help pay for their tournaments.

You're joking right?
http://www.scrabbleplayers.org/w/2014_National_SCRABBLE_Championship_prizes

First place for Division I NATIONAL Scrabble champion: $10,000 and a trophy.

So how can anyone say leagues grow pool when only a tiny percentage of league players do anything with pool outside of league? And most of those that do were already interested in the sport before league. Leauge players for the most part help grow league revenue. The only league I know that is involed with promoting pool as a real sport is the BCAPL and USAPL through Mark Griffin. He was involed with TAR, provided several good pro events alongside the league tournaments and is even an active poster on AZB.

Your argument about leagues not growing pool are perfectly valid so long as you accept your definition of "growing pool" i.e., that "growing pool" really means "growing professional pool."

The writing is on the wall. While millions of people play pool, not nearly that many want to watch it which is how professional sports get their money either directly from ticket sales and TV deals or indirectly through selling advertising.

So with no money from sponsors, advertising, ticket-buying people, how is a professional pool tour supposed to survive?