to all you apa bashers...and all league haters also

[Celophanewrap]

If only the APA cared as much about the bangers as they care about the bangers' money! If only they cared about the players who improved instead of scheming for ways to get those players' money as well! If only they kept closer tabs on their league operators and listened to the complaints of the league members when an operator's methods or ethics come into question! .........!

Gee wiz, where do some of you guys play APA?
Maybe it's just me, I find it very hard to believe the out right black and white difference between your area and mine. But to be fair, I suppose if I were to survey every APA player and other league player here I'd find my fair share of b1tchers and moaners that weren't as good as they thought they were and couldn't admit that they lost straight up matches to an APA player....
or something like that

 

[buckshotshoey]

The APA is good for selling lots of cheap cues and making bars some drink money.

That is not really a way to grow pool.

Maybe 10% of the APA players know what a good player looks like, or what rules the pro players play by or can name more than 2 pros, or have ever seen or heard of a TAR match or have gone to see a pro tournament. It's like saying that illegal immigrants are a good way to grow the US population.

I know there were many posts on here how there were free to attend pro events during huge league yearly tournaments and the stands were pretty much empty. That is not helping pool, it's helping the league owners and also helping McDermott sell overseas made cues to those players. I can't say that is all bad, it's certainly good for the companies involved, but it does not help pool as a sport. For anyone to say that the leagues bring in a 100,000 players into the sport we need to see 100,000 people viewing the free live streams when SVB plays Efren and getting 10,000 people paying TAR $20 to watch 2-3 days of one on one action.

I just played a few games with some APA players at a bar. I was totally messing with them yet was able to win every game for about an hour before I left. When I had to go, one of them said "you are actually not that bad do you ever play for money" LOL I was very nice and said "no" and I also made sure that I properly admired his game how close they all came to winning that i just got lucky and what a great cue he had. He had a lower end McDermott that he said his dad paid $500 for. It was a stick you can get for maybe $250 a basic G shaft model. Nice cue but he probably had no idea what it really was as far as the shaft technology or construction goes. That is what the APA and other league players give us.

Compairing apa members to illegal aliens. Thats a new one. How about the apa is funneling money to a terrorist organisation? You seem to think that everyone should have the same knowledge or interest in pool as you do. The apa members you spoke of were probably beginner's. Reflective of beginners in any league. Why would any players be better, or more knowledgeable, or be more skilled because of what league they affiliate themselves? Your comments themselves are biased in so many ways. 6's, 7's, and masters division players (8 ball) tend to be very knowledgeable and can give you some serious game. Dont think for one minute that most of us dont take the game seriously. Your superiority insults me.

 

[justadub]

The APA is good for selling lots of cheap cues and making bars some drink money.

Most bars around here have plenty of open tables when it isn't league night. I also know for a fact that they do very, very good drink business on league night. When a Tuesday brings in almost as much as some Fridays, you know they're having a good night behind the bar.

That is not really a way to grow pool.

Maybe 10% of the APA players know what a good player looks like, or what rules the pro players play by or can name more than 2 pros, or have ever seen or heard of a TAR match or have gone to see a pro tournament. It's like saying that illegal immigrants are a good way to grow the US population.

How many TAP, BCA, Valley or NAPA players will know what a "good player" looks like? Do you have all the percentages worked out for them, as well? When you consider that the APA probably has as many players as the rest combined (or at least a significantly larger membership, in any case) and admittedly markets to beginners, why is this surprising?

Do you feel that in order for someone to learn to play pool, they must know who Efren is? That they must buy PPV's, and that they must know which rules that the pro's use? (Which, of course, change between tournaments, but why worry about that pesky little detail.)

I know there were many posts on here how there were free to attend pro events during huge league yearly tournaments and the stands were pretty much empty. That is not helping pool, it's helping the league owners and also helping McDermott sell overseas made cues to those players. I can't say that is all bad, it's certainly good for the companies involved, but it does not help pool as a sport. For anyone to say that the leagues bring in a 100,000 players into the sport we need to see 100,000 people viewing the free live streams when SVB plays Efren and getting 10,000 people paying TAR $20 to watch 2-3 days of one on one action.

And of course the stands were full during previous years BCA nationals with the pro's in the same building....no wait, they weren't. Or did you forget that? Yes, it's only APA players who don't go see the pro's, right......

I just played a few games with some APA players at a bar. I was totally messing with them yet was able to win every game for about an hour before I left. When I had to go, one of them said "you are actually not that bad do you ever play for money" LOL I was very nice and said "no" and I also made sure that I properly admired his game how close they all came to winning that i just got lucky and what a great cue he had. He had a lower end McDermott that he said his dad paid $500 for. It was a stick you can get for maybe $250 a basic G shaft model. Nice cue but he probably had no idea what it really was as far as the shaft technology or construction goes. That is what the APA and other league players give us.

There are players in my little APA division in the middle of nowhere that have pretty expensive cues. More than a couple, actually. And they do indeed know about them. They are the minority, of course. But I suppose to you, we must all spend over $1000 on cues, in order to "grow the game".

Why do you care what those particular players know about cues, or carry in their case? And once again, did you do the same exercise with BCA, TAP, NAPA and Valley? (Yes, I own a McDermott, and I like it. Its a basic G-Shaft model, too. And yes, I know that it is a basic LD shaft, when compared to others available. Couple hundred bucks, reasonable for what I had available to spend. Would I like to upgrade, sure. Can't afford to right now, perhaps I will someday.)

The APA does bring a lot of new people into pool. Some will stay in APA and never move on, some will move to a higher level of league or other competition, and some might not stay playing pool. But there are far, far more people that know even a little about pool as a result of playing APA. And despite what you may think, that is definitely a good thing for pool.

 

[hang-the-9]

The APA does bring a lot of new people into pool. Some will stay in APA and never move on, some will move to a higher level of league or other competition, and some might not stay playing pool. But there are far, far more people that know even a little about pool as a result of playing APA. And despite what you may think, that is definitely a good thing for pool.

Actually just about any league is in the same boat as the APA. The APA is a tad worse as they have more league only rules that differ from the standardized rules than other leagues. The USAPL league I played in used standard world rules.

There are plenty of good players in the leagues, but those players would have been as good and as interested in the sport outside of the league.

I can't name a single person out of all the people I know that got better and were more interested in pool because they joined a league. They were already into the game and just happened to join a league.

I just don't think leagues bring anything towards growing pool, which should be "growing pro pool" since that is where the port is lacking in. People have been and will continue to buy 8' home tables and covering them with black cloth while trying to sell their rare 40 yr old bamboo cues for 2,000 on ebay, that is not helping anyone aside from those that sell those things.

Now if the APA and others sponsored a pro tour where 100 players could make a living playing pool, that would be great for the game.

Maybe we need to define exactly what "growing the sport" is. To me, it's not what I see the leagues bring to the table.

If anyone knows of a player that joined a league and grew interested in getting to, say a B level, and followed the sport, watched matches, went to tournaments, I'd love to hear about them. The only good players I know that are in leagues are not there for the competition or to improve, they are there for the chance of a free trip somewhere.

The only reason I joined a league was to get a chance to have my son play more and to get a chance to play and be with him. But he did not learn to love pool from league, it was from me. And I'm sure anyone that mentored a league player has done the same thing, but it was not due to the league that they grew, it was from whatever player was their mentor. I do that in every tournament I play in, if there is a player that I see struggling with something, especially if I play them, they get a quick lesson. Hopefully they'll be back next week.

 

[lorider]

listen guys .... i really dont care if you dont like apa. i really dont care if you prefer to play bcapl ... napa... or whatever league ...or no league at all.

if every one thought the same way the world would be kind of boring.

what bothers me is the constant bashing of the organization and stating that all off its members are drunks....rule breakers... ass holes.. inferior players ...and ignorant of the pool world around them.etc...etc...etc..

i take offence to that ...not to mention that it gets old.after awhile. the only reason i started this thread was because some one started another thread asking a question about his experience. sure enough the apa bashers came out spewing their hatred for the league.

yes i defend the apa on here but dont take it out of context because i know the league aint perfect. there are times i have not agreed with my lo...matter of fact there have been a few times he out right pissed me off raising me or some of my team mates at inoportune times. looking back i can honestly say he did not raise any body who did not deserve it.

i have improved in skill level since i joined apa. i have learned a lot about pattern play...cue ball control...safty play... english...and a whole lot more about the nuances of the game i never would have learned without joining apa.

i have played bcapl..napa and various money leagues and have found people in apa more friendly and laid back than the other leagues. i have also found that these same people are more willing to teach newer players than other leagues...team mates and opponents alike.

after playing in bars and using bar cues most of my life i purchased my 1st cue when joining league. yea it was cheap but over time i migrated to more expensive cues all the way up to a 3,000.00 custom.

i have scoured the website looking for any and all info i could find to help improve my game. i also took an 8 hour lesson on my home table from randy g to improve my game.

i donate to tournaments that i dont have a chance in hell of reaching the finals in from time to time as money and time allows.

i am sure thousands of other apa members are just like me and i take offense for us to be categorized as inferior to you just because we play in a league that welcomes new players with open arms. yea the apa is full of lower level players but there are untold numbers who take the game seriously and are capable of playing at a high level in any league they so choose to play in.

end of rant so carry on with your flame throwing. :grin-square:

 

[peppersauce]

..............

 

[play8ball]

Geez! You guys make it sound like I plotted and planned this whole. Tournament situation! I was BRAND F*CKING NEW to the APA! I thought that was the way it worked. My point to all that was not the the tournament. My point was my first interaction with an APA captain was a whiney, crybaby, well-known sandbagger himself. It just seems unethical for a team captain to be able to call the LO and get someone's handicap raised because he believes he knows how someone plays. In my case, he was right. I was probably the best or 2nd best player in that particular league. Put me in a bigger city and I would have been more accurately rated.
I'm not asking the APA to change their ridiculous rules. I just choose not to participate and have not participated in about 15 years now. As far as "Masters," that's a nice attempt on their part, but as far as I'm concerned it still falls under the same governing body.
I'm content to play in tournaments with no handicaps or play money matches with other players when and where I want without having to commit to league and be somewhere at some certain time. Yes, it's been said and I agree, I'm not much of a team player. I tried a league again last year (BCA) and dropped off after 2 sessions. Why? Because of the politics and sandbagging by others on my own team!
Some folks fit well into the league system and some do not. I know I am one who does not so I have chosen to stay away from league play. I can live with that decision...

I think that you're my hero! The best thing for some of us players is to stay away from the leagues and keep WANTING to improve.

I believe that the handicap system, in and of itself, for any league, lends itself to interpretation.

Some folks like to play the game of making sure they stay on a team with their buddies while making sure they manage the roster well enough to win the mythical dangling grand prize. Seems like those teams have a good formula, because they manage to get in there every year.

The folks who interpret the rule differently will have to continuously recruit new players and develop a "farm team" in which they end up growing the league operators territory for him, but rarely, if ever, make it to Vegas.

I also believe that the APA was started as a great service business teaching folks how to organize things. Mainly, money, into big piles. The art of the peel, and the guys at the top are no strangers to the hustle!

I'd be willing to bet that the APA has probably had a hand in more broken families and divorce than anyone cares to admit, too.

All in all, billiards, for some, is a more personal journey of putting together the right patterns, and finding the key that springs the lock on the puzzle.

so, my argument is that while the APA does bring in new players, some of us would rather just philosophize and study the games!

 

[kiddcutty]

As a former young APA player(it is no longer around in my neck of the woods), I would just like to state that if it wasn't for the league I would have never found this forum or have as much love for the game that I do now.

I am 25 now and spend 30 to 40 hours a week on a 9ft diamond, not just playing but practicing. I LOVE it. I've spent more on pool than I have on other personal things. I started with a low end Viking and now own a couple very nice (to me) customs.

This game has changed my life in a good way, and I will forever be thankful!

 

[cluelesscuer]

The LO's who cut deals with captains and players in a short sighted plan to appease everyone, while in the long run appeasing no one, are what ruins it. There are so many 'deals' I see by the our local LO that you just come to realize its just not a competition.

 

[itsfroze]

listen guys .... i really dont care if you dont like apa. i really dont care if you prefer to play bcapl ... napa... or whatever league ...or no league at all.

if every one thought the same way the world would be kind of boring.

what bothers me is the constant bashing of the organization and stating that all off its members are drunks....rule breakers... ass holes.. inferior players ...and ignorant of the pool world around them.etc...etc...etc..

i take offence to that ...not to mention that it gets old.after awhile. the only reason i started this thread was because some one started another thread asking a question about his experience. sure enough the apa bashers came out spewing their hatred for the league.

yes i defend the apa on here but dont take it out of context because i know the league aint perfect. there are times i have not agreed with my lo...matter of fact there have been a few times he out right pissed me off raising me or some of my team mates at inoportune times. looking back i can honestly say he did not raise any body who did not deserve it.

i have improved in skill level since i joined apa. i have learned a lot about pattern play...cue ball control...safty play... english...and a whole lot more about the nuances of the game i never would have learned without joining apa.

i have played bcapl..napa and various money leagues and have found people in apa more friendly and laid back than the other leagues. i have also found that these same people are more willing to teach newer players than other leagues...team mates and opponents alike.

after playing in bars and using bar cues most of my life i purchased my 1st cue when joining league. yea it was cheap but over time i migrated to more expensive cues all the way up to a 3,000.00 custom.

i have scoured the website looking for any and all info i could find to help improve my game. i also took an 8 hour lesson on my home table from randy g to improve my game.

i donate to tournaments that i dont have a chance in hell of reaching the finals in from time to time as money and time allows.

i am sure thousands of other apa members are just like me and i take offense for us to be categorized as inferior to you just because we play in a league that welcomes new players with open arms. yea the apa is full of lower level players but there are untold numbers who take the game seriously and are capable of playing at a high level in any league they so choose to play in.

end of rant so carry on with your flame throwing. :grin-square:

From what I've seen over the years, the part in red above is absolutely true of the vast majority of APA league players. I pretty much just stopped going to the Pool room on league nites.
It's just not worth the hassle. How many times should you have to ask the same people to "excuse me please" so you can take a shot, on the table where you're paying time and trying to play.

Someone, anyone doesn't have to even know about Pool to be polite or god forbid use some common sense. I don't stand two feet from anyone's table with my back to it.
It gets old quickly.

End of rant, carry on with your whining ! :grin-square:

 

[cluelesscuer]

I understand the defense of the apa...in the thought of 'if you don't like it don't play in it'. But there is a second issue here and that is the monopoly they have in national organizations (especially, where I am at). I know the prior owner of the north Chicago area TAP league was banned from playing in the Apa just because he started the tap league (which was never a threat, but just another option and was trying to cater to a more a niche in terms of serious players). If I know about this, what other stuff does the LO do here to monopolize the area? I don't know...but knowing this, it wouldn't surprise me if certain bars would lose their apa league if they had other national leagues. So, it's more than a take it or leave it argument to me...


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[StuartTKelley]

Do you know what percentage of APA members support their local hall on days other than league nights?
How much money do APA members spend on average when they go to the pool hall?
These are legitimate questions and im not bashing anyone in any kind of way.

I play APA and I would say I spend 100 a week on pool, drinks, and food at my in house establishment. Some weeks less, some more...that's a lot more than I see out of the big timers that come in and play 1 Pocket for hours and drink water....

 

[alstl]

i just do not understand why so many people dis like the apa so much. you guys are always complaining about the apparent decline of pool but yet want to bash the most successful organization in introducing new players to our sport.

without this influx of new players apa brings in every year our sport would be worse off than it is today. your favorite term for these new players is " bangers"

well let me tell you about these " bangers ". thousands of them progress in skill level as time goes by . hence the common complaint about players going up and teams cant meet the 23 rule.

thousands of them buy pool cues and as time goes buy get more serious and progress to custom cues. thousands of them get more serious and start spending time practicing and help keep pool halls open.

quite a few times i have seen posts on here joking or complaining about encountering bangers. remarks about newbies encroaching upon " your precious space " by playing on a table near you. remarks about they did not know where the rack was or looking for where to put the quarters in on a 9 footer.

guys like you are what gives pool a bad name. whats wrong with taking a lil time from your precious practice time to embrace these bangers and take them under your wing teaching them a few techniques or proper pool etiquette ?

kinda funny how the better you play or the more serious you get you tend to look down your nose at people who are new at this game. i guess you all forget that you were bangers at one time ...unless you come out of your mothers womb with a cue in your hand shooting like svb .

you want to play serious pool ? apa can accommodate you. join masters. its a race to 7 with no handicap. just show up and hope you got what it takes to play even with the best in town.

want to play on 9 footers ? play the us amateur. you gotta play damn near pro speed to have a chance finishing in the top 10.

no other organization out there offers a competitive environment for people who dont know how to a hold a cue properly all the way up to some one who is capable of running rack after rack.

you guys oughta be thankful there is sch an organization as apa instead of bashing it all the time.

Bashing and stating reality are not the same thing. The APA by design is intended to attract weaker players or sandbaggers pretending to be weak players.

Add alcohol to the equation and there is a reason the APA enjoys the reputation it has.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I understand the defense of the apa...in the thought of 'if you don't like it don't play in it'. But there is a second issue here and that is the monopoly they have in national organizations (especially, where I am at). I know the prior owner of the north Chicago area TAP league was banned from playing in the Apa just because he started the tap league (which was never a threat, but just another option and was trying to cater to a more a niche in terms of serious players). If I know about this, what other stuff does the LO do here to monopolize the area? I don't know...but knowing this, it wouldn't surprise me if certain bars would lose their apa league if they had other national leagues. So, it's more than a take it or leave it argument to me...


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Wow! I'm not saying that you're not being truthful so please don't misunderstand me, but I find it hard to believe that the APA is some evil empire in so many other parts of the country. A while back I had a position in one of our local rooms a while back and my job was to recruit teams and players, not just to the APA but for leagues and tournaments to play in our house to increase business. The one thing that I saw in all of the leagues was that they all enjoyed a sort of symbiotic relationship, that is - they all fed off of each other.

As for the APA here now, it's difficult to believe that our area here is so different from some of the areas that you all describe. For certain, I don't always see eye to eye with our LO, but it's never left me thinking they were unfair or out to get me. I find our LO to be one of the fairest and most honest people that I know. The LO doesn't get involved where they don't need to be involved. In conversations that I've had with our LO, it is assumed that we're all adults and all they ask is that we conduct ourselves as such. That in itself takes care of most matters. Recurring issues with a single player or team can be addressed by the LO if need be and they have been when that is what is called for.

I just don't get where all of the other issues come from with some of the areas. I've met many of the other LO's from around the country, over all for the most part they remind me of my LO here.
My LO is likely one of the original LO's from the early APA back before it was the Busch League, perhaps that's where the difference lies. It sounds like many of the problems come from leagues where an ex (or current) player always talked about how much better they could do things and when they saw a chance to by an area and make a few bucks they sort of fell on their face and were left with a National Champion that was DQ'd for using false identities or worked out one of these "deals" with players that didn't work out so well in the end.

I just don't see that here. We play pool. Sure, as in every big business, some folks fall through the cracks and some times things just go kind of wrong, not everything works all the time. But whining about it doesn't fix anything. Instead of b1tching , maybe try approaching what you might think is a bad situation like a reasonable adult. That would probably go a log way toward making things better.

I wish you all could experience what it's like to play under the league that my LO runs. I think your opinion of the APA would be likely to change to a positive one.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Pool

i just do not understand why so many people dis like the apa so much. you guys are always complaining about the apparent decline of pool but yet want to bash the most successful organization in introducing new players to our sport.

without this influx of new players apa brings in every year our sport would be worse off than it is today. your favorite term for these new players is " bangers"

well let me tell you about these " bangers ". thousands of them progress in skill level as time goes by . hence the common complaint about players going up and teams cant meet the 23 rule.

thousands of them buy pool cues and as time goes buy get more serious and progress to custom cues. thousands of them get more serious and start spending time practicing and help keep pool halls open.

quite a few times i have seen posts on here joking or complaining about encountering bangers. remarks about newbies encroaching upon " your precious space " by playing on a table near you. remarks about they did not know where the rack was or looking for where to put the quarters in on a 9 footer.

guys like you are what gives pool a bad name. whats wrong with taking a lil time from your precious practice time to embrace these bangers and take them under your wing teaching them a few techniques or proper pool etiquette ?

kinda funny how the better you play or the more serious you get you tend to look down your nose at people who are new at this game. i guess you all forget that you were bangers at one time ...unless you come out of your mothers womb with a cue in your hand shooting like svb .

you want to play serious pool ? apa can accommodate you. join masters. its a race to 7 with no handicap. just show up and hope you got what it takes to play even with the best in town.

want to play on 9 footers ? play the us amateur. you gotta play damn near pro speed to have a chance finishing in the top 10.

no other organization out there offers a competitive environment for people who dont know how to a hold a cue properly all the way up to some one who is capable of running rack after rack.

you guys oughta be thankful there is sch an organization as apa instead of bashing it all the time.

Everyone should expect problems with any kind of competition.

 

[cluelesscuer]

I think to me, the issue is the facade. I think if they just came out and said...'there are really no rules we follow and we are trying to just make $ and we will manipulate and/or ignore any issue that will not makes us more $, then I would have respect for them.


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[cluelesscuer]

Here is one example off the top of my head...Everyone gets upset about sandbagging. So it seems to me the apa has a national rule if you don't finished in top half of your division you lose any qualification you have to year end city wides. To me, this is a good rule as it prevents sandbagging. And our LO would make teams sign a paper to this effect. But from what I've seen, it was completely ignored. I would see teams get qualified from the summer and then just be terrible the rest of the session often with new players and still get to go to citywides. Just to make everyone happy. That's fine. But don't state the rules are otherwise and/or blame the players for sandbagging when you are letting everyone in the citywides. This is just example. Or just randomly give citywide spits to other teams who didn't qualify per the stated rules. I know a captain who basically kicked off his own team and then just formed a different team on a different night and because he was all upset because his original team won a citywide spot in the summer, he was given a citywide spot for his new team. If a LO wants to it that way...that is perfectly fine. But just be honest everyone beforehand.


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[Banks]

Half the people that knock it would be your run-of-the-mill 5 or so. Lots of people also a bit butthurt because they weren't rated as high as their ego. A very small percentage actually knock it because they don't get much competition from playing, the rest just like to complain and snub their noses.

I play because it's a hobby and I enjoy hanging out with people. I also enjoy trying to outrun a handicap.

 

[Koop]

I play because it's a hobby and I enjoy hanging out with people. I also enjoy trying to outrun a handicap.

Ditto. This is exactly why I play APA.
The handicaps annoy me sometimes when I know someone is below where they should be on purpose but for the most part I just play my game and don't worry about it.

 

[Tooler]

Many different leagues here in NYC. APA, BCA, NAPL, Mega Bucks, etc.. Out of all of them, APA is universally agreed to have the most sandbagging, sharking and unsportsmanlike behavior. When people get a little more serious about their game, they leave APA or join another league.

I like leagues. They are good for pool. Some people just like to complain. Haters gonna hate.

This is the truth...... I would rather drive 45mins each way, to play in something other than APA......too many money grubbing league operators, who have no desire to learn the rules.


It's just like Mr Perot once said: "What we have here is a giant sucking machine"




P.S. .... Bang-On brother. Just remember, there's more to this game than any sandbagger could ever teach you.