Yeah but are they producing, or equipped to produce it on the scale needed to provide whole planks needed for framing and legs? That's a tall order.
Dymondwood factory fire: Thoughts?
- Thread starter dogginda9
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Yeah but are they producing, or equipped to produce it on the scale needed to provide whole planks needed for framing and legs? That's a tall order.
I understand the process. I know what the product is. Thanks.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread though it SEEMS as if makers of knives and bows do not have any alternative to the Dymondwood brand that they consider to be as good as Dymondwood.
That's the point I made, not that no one else can make resin filled wood. Just as with any product it's not that people CAN make it but instead HOW they make it. No, it's not "brain surgery" but Rutland might have had a certain process that no one else is doing that makes their product better to work with. Manufacturers don't like to share their secret formulas or techniques if they can help it.
Also, I think that there is a big difference in stabilizing large pieces of wood required for pool tables and other furniture and cabinetry to what it required for pen and knife and pool cue blanks. Just seems like the scale would be much harder to control when you are trying to get conformity in larger pieces. I could probably build a vacuum chamber to stabilize small pieces of wood fairly easily.
Lastly, while it's not brain surgery, there is an art to it as I know from my association with the maker of Fury cues. They went through many processes before landing on what they currently use for some of the lines. I don't think it's quite as simple as the product description sounds.
JC
Coos Cues
True, and as country China does not make anything. Nor does America if we want to be completely literal about it. Chinese people make things, and specifically Chinese people in Chinese companies make them. Sometimes American people in American will direct Chinese people in Chinese companies to produce things for sale in America.
The Chinese people collectively don't get together to produce anything. Sometimes the Chinese government will support various industries just as the American government supports various American industries.
However all that said when someone says "China will copy it" then they are speaking of Chinese people, as a race of people who have the stereotype of copying, not of the country of China which has tourist attractions like the Great Wall. So it is bringing race into it when someone says "China will copy it".
One more thing, everyone should hope that Dymondwood is copied by everyone who can copy it without violating IP laws. Because that's what innovation is all about, copying and improving on what has been created so as to make it plentiful and affordable. That's why you get to spend time arguing on forums about semantics with people on the other side of the planet because the makers of personal computers didn't stop at the Tandy300 and networking evolved beyond dial up modems.
I'm really glad that China makes stuff. I like their stuff and I can't think of any negative qualities imparted to a product by Chinese manufacturing. And I can think of one big positive: price.
Though I do think I am a little partial to korea as I love samsung.
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Though I do think I am a little partial to korea as I love samsung.
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I didn't take it that way. When he said Chinese, it was obvious he didn't mean as a race, it was Chinese as a market. The Chinese market is well known for manipulation of trademark laws and currency. Don't make it a race issue unnecessary.
You are very correct about disasters and opportunities, in many cases its how we evolve. As stated by a earlier poster the way this "plywood' is constructed it is more like a super micro-lam and nearly bullet proof. RKC told me the material is so tough that it dulls carbide tools quickly and you can pick the luster you want by how long you run a buffer over it.
I don't know how much stock Diamond tables keeps in house but something tells me it is not that much.
Here are a couple more pics.
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Rutland plywood
I have always assumed the Dymondwood was the same as some laminated stuff that Rutland made for gunstocks. While that wood didn't run back and forth at 90 degrees like plywood I thought there was some bias to the stock wood. Could be mistaken, could be different wood, could be things have changed in twenty years or so!
I have bought the very thin layered plywood made from birch or I think birch with an oak veneer. The stuff I looked at the oak was actually made slightly differently, maybe different plants. Anyway this stuff which is usually seven or nine layers to the sheet, isn't wonderful quality in my opinion. Considerably better than regular plywood however and for structural stability laminating this at a bias might be an acceptable option to keep in production. Another option might be some of the modern fiberboard. It isn't all the same crap fiberboard once was. A plywood and MDF sandwich might be an option.
Just some idle speculations. I'm sure Diamond will be doing their own homework before production grinds to a halt.
Hu
I have always assumed the Dymondwood was the same as some laminated stuff that Rutland made for gunstocks. While that wood didn't run back and forth at 90 degrees like plywood I thought there was some bias to the stock wood. Could be mistaken, could be different wood, could be things have changed in twenty years or so!
I have bought the very thin layered plywood made from birch or I think birch with an oak veneer. The stuff I looked at the oak was actually made slightly differently, maybe different plants. Anyway this stuff which is usually seven or nine layers to the sheet, isn't wonderful quality in my opinion. Considerably better than regular plywood however and for structural stability laminating this at a bias might be an acceptable option to keep in production. Another option might be some of the modern fiberboard. It isn't all the same crap fiberboard once was. A plywood and MDF sandwich might be an option.
Just some idle speculations. I'm sure Diamond will be doing their own homework before production grinds to a halt.
Hu
How much of the construction really consists of Dymondwood? From what I have seen and I never dissembled a Diamond table. It is just the rail tops maybe 1/2 inch thick, am I wrong? It doesn't kill their business to not have the Dymondwood.
From reading the various articles on the fire I have a feeling the owner will not rebuild. This may be the end of Dyamondwood. Of course they all always say they will rebuild after a disaster but according to the owner he is heavily insured so his loss may not be that bad.
Who knows if he isn't, after some reflection on the matter as time passes, glad to be out. A lot of business, even successful ones and we don't know how their business was really doing, can be a real pain in the ass.
Dymondwood is thin layers of birch glued together. It is injected with dye and impregnated with phenolic resin.The laminate for gunstocks is the same except it is not impregnated with phenolic. Diamond Billiards uses 5/8" thick pieces for the rails.
The fire was a total loss. Rutland is not planning on rebuilding. However, one of the users of Dymondwood is working with the insurance company to talk about the possibilityof building a facility to make Dymondwood. This is very preliminary. We will have to wait and see the outcome.
In the meantime, Diamond Billiards is investigating other resin impregnated laminates as a potential replacement. These products will have different positives and negatives.There is only one company in the USA that makes Dymondwood - Rutland Plywood. There is one other company in India that makes very small pieces of Dymondwood. They are unlikely to be able to produce a viable product for Diamond.
So, it is not time to panic yet. We will have to wait for all of these things to play out and then pursue the best course of action.
The fire was a total loss. Rutland is not planning on rebuilding. However, one of the users of Dymondwood is working with the insurance company to talk about the possibilityof building a facility to make Dymondwood. This is very preliminary. We will have to wait and see the outcome.
In the meantime, Diamond Billiards is investigating other resin impregnated laminates as a potential replacement. These products will have different positives and negatives.There is only one company in the USA that makes Dymondwood - Rutland Plywood. There is one other company in India that makes very small pieces of Dymondwood. They are unlikely to be able to produce a viable product for Diamond.
So, it is not time to panic yet. We will have to wait for all of these things to play out and then pursue the best course of action.
Let me say it another way.
The country of China which has the capability to produce almost anything can probably come up with a product that is similar.
there was no intention to demean any race in my post.
In fact I admire what the country of China is capable of doing.they are not restrained by a multitude of red tape and meddling by their government.
Imagine how the US could totally dominate the world of industry if they could be turned loose.
That is actually not true. Chinese industry is far behind the USA in many areas. Any technological prowess is more often the result of Western firms bringing know how and machinery to China.
Plenty of red tape here. More than you can imagine and more than in the USA for sure in some critical areas. Sure a lot of Chinese companies ignore the rules or buy favors but that doesn't help them make "better" products.
I knew a guy who was having cues built in China some years ago. He told me they had no resources there. He had to import everything there from the glue to all the woods and metal parts.
Then export the cues back to the US where they were moved on American trucks, sold by Americans, taxes were paid and everything except the actual assembly created jobs income and taxes in the US.
He kind of resented it when he was made to feel like he was some how un-American. Is this at all accurate?
That's an extreme example but probably more common that people would think. An example is a bandsaw. You go to Home Depot and Rockler and Lowes and online in the USA you find dozens and dozens of bandsaw brands to choose from. From lightweight hobby models to industrial ones. Here, forget about it. You won't easily find hobby bandsaws anywhere. For industrial ones you are dealing with factories not distributors.
I lucked into a bandsaw once by accident because I decided to turn right instead of left while walking with my daughter. Found a new store that was selling tools who had two bandsaws on display. The only ones in the entire city of 5 million people.
So I bought one of them. Then when the blade broke come to find out it's a non standard size. Called the maker and he gave us the number of the factory that makes the blades, that place didn't want to sell us blades in less than 100 pieces at a time. Had to end up buying blades in the usa that were longer and have a local shop cut them down and weld them together for me. Bought those blades at Harbor Freight, made in China.
So forget about being able to buy different types of blades for different materials, I am lucky to have any kind of blade at all.
People don't really realize that the average small to midsized factory in China has LESS hand tools and less power tools than the average American homeowner does in his garage. Then if you know what tool you want, good luck finding it. For example I cannot buy an arbor press in China. The same arbor press that Harbor Freight imports from China is not only not available here but if you go to the tool section of the city where there are hundreds of shops selling tools, no one has ever even seen one in person or in any catalog they have.
Same thing with paint pans. I wanted to paint my shop. Went to get paint and rollers. No one uses paint pans here. They spread it out on plastic and do it that way.
People see the glittering Beijing Airport built in just a few years and think China is capable of anything. But they don't see behind the facade to understand that appearances are very deceiving. China of course as a nation has a lot of potential but they are still lagging very far behind the USA.
My favorite story to tell along these lines which is 100% true is when I heard a Chinese official bragging about having completed an national interstate highway system in just 20 years compared to America's 50 to achieve the same thing. I turned to my wife and said yeah, but they forgot all the exits. If you were to travel on the highway here you would understand how dangerous it is to get off the highway in some places, you go from blacktop to a cross-country course for five minutes and then if you and the car survive you reach blacktop again to roll up to a very ornate tollbooth.
I like China and will defend it and the people here against stereotypes. But as anyone who lives here knows China still has a long way to go in many areas. Frankly after seven years I am ready to live in the USA again full time.
And to keep this thread on track, no, without someone with the know-how to teach them I doubt that any Chinese company will invest the time and effort to replicate Dymondwood. But there may well already be something similar here, I just haven't seen it yet.
