U.S. Open rules discussion

[BRussell]

Rack the 1 Ball on the spot, this is an American tournament and the American players are used to the 1 Ball being racked on the spot. If you rack the 9 Ball on the spot this is what the Europeans are used to as this is the way they rack them on the Euro Tour. Shane even said on the ABR interview that when they changed the way the balls were racked (meaning to 9-Ball on spot) is when the Americans basically stopped winning in the Mosconi Cup, prior to that when we were winning the balls were racked with the 1 Ball on the spot.

So my vote is for 1 ball on the spot !

I'd take the same facts and conclude the opposite: That they adopt the European rack method. They're doing something right over there, why not copy it? And it would help to practice it if Americans ever want to be competitive with Europeans again.

 

[Island Drive]

To help move along the event, and utilize players time effectively I would have Loser Racks, winner breaks.

Like you mentioned, the 9 on the spot, has gotten rid of massive break and run packages. and made play much more fair.

In loser racks, the class and etiquette of each player can be shown in a much better light either way....and SPEED UP PLAY.

Also, I would highly consider the of use wooden racks as they create a wonderful sound of play, and like the Willards event at Pheasant Run IL they were embossed and players could sign em for the buyers and sellers.
These wooden racks, were made by a good friend of Vivian V. in TX and, were top notch. That additional' 'sound'' of play, is almost as nice as hearing the ball slapping against the back of a Gold Crown Pocket.

Here's why loser should rack, ''especially if they are Drop pockets''. Both players are seen (in the public eye), working together during play to assist and roll balls down table and interact. When your racking, your basically remembering what you did wrong/or not/making sure they are tight, and when your breaking, your doing the same but from the winners perspective and your prepping for breaking while your opponent is doing his job. I wouldn't be surprised if all matches ran at least 20-30 minutes quicker that the rack your own. Only next best thing is having refs/rack at each table, and we know that's not possible now.
With the increase in entry fees and overall costs, the caliber of players at this event is world class, therefore in the players meeting DEMAND that they act like true pros and give your opponent a rack as good as you would for yourself. It's time to stop babysitting adults until there is a ref at each table. You could also tell the players that constantly complain about bad racks, that if it keeps up, you can take a game away if needed for unsportsmanlike conduct....that's what rack mechanics are, cheaters plain and simple, they need to GO.

 

[itsfroze]

I'd take the same facts and conclude the opposite: That they adopt the European rack method. They're doing something right over there, why not copy it? And it would help to practice it if Americans ever want to be competitive with Europeans again.

Not when they change it less than two weeks before the start of the OPEN.

 

[hang-the-9]

As TD this year it is my goal to make the rules as fair as possible for everyone. It will be a stellar field, full of great players, and for that I'm excited. Since this is a WPA sanctioned event we will follow their rules as closely as possible.

9-Ball, Texas Express, Winner Breaks and Rack Your Own for starters. We will be playing Foul on All Balls, which is the way most major events are played today all over the world. An incidental touch of a shirt sleeve will not constitute a foul unless the ball moves. It's actually much easier to officiate playing all ball fouls than playing cue ball fouls only. If a ball moves you fouled and there is no question about it.

The big question is how to rack the balls, and there is no clear WPA rule to cover that. We will definitely be using the break box and can either rack the one on the spot or the nine on the spot. The problem with racking the one on the spot is the wing ball is wired for one of the corner pockets, thus making a run-out that much easier. With the nine on the spot this is not the case. Most of the top players I've talked to support the idea of racking the nine on the spot. It makes for a better game requiring more skill. That's the way they do it on all Matchroom events and it seems to work pretty well for them.

Barry's goal as the promoter of this event is to make it the best test of pool in the USA, similar to the U.S. Open in golf. I'm still open to suggestions about this and anything else rule related. I seriously doubt we will require three or more balls to be pocketed or sent past the head string. But we will not allow soft breaking. A cut break is okay as long as a firm stroke is used.

Thanks for your input. Barry has a lot of faith in the members of this forum and he asked me to please put this out there for all to see. It also serves to inform the players in advance what rules we will be using.

Any thoughts on pattern racking and soft breaks? As in "NO" to either :smile: ? I'm guessing with so many tables in play it would have to be on the honor system though, it's not like you can stick a ref or a radar gun on every table.

Just don't do that silly 3 balls past the line rule.

 

[jay helfert]

With all due respect to Jay and Barry. I have said this many times.

Our idea of what 9ball was flawed bc of inconsistent racks. Had that been the case in the beginning of the game it wouldn't be a big deal.

The 9ball rack is wired for the wing and 1ball to go. I see no problem with it. You must execute a great break and continue ur run. Much like straight pool.

In 14.1, 1pkt, and 8ball the corner ball is also wired. It requires the thinnest of hits but is reliable.

Anyways what I'm getting at is. 9ball is just a continuous run type game but we refuse to accept it.

If ur still intent on keeping it the way it was then no rack inspecting, opponent racks, and this forces the breaker to hit it with all his might.

See the folly in this? Even the three ball headstring rule isn't fair. I've seen hard breaks where the balls just clack into each other and remain down table.

Fair is consistent but then when it's too consistent we complain.

We then want some randomness but then too much and we complain.

Simple rule. 9 ball on the spot and breaker breaks from the spot.

Exhausted now going to grab a beer lol

Anyways it's an uphill battle but I commend jay and Barry for their efforts in all they do for our messed up world.

Personally I like this, you break from the spot. I've seen this used as a handicap in a money game and it changes everything!

 

[itsfroze]

To help move along the event, and utilize players time effectively I would have Loser Racks, winner breaks.

Like you mentioned, the 9 on the spot, has gotten rid of massive break and run packages. and made play much more fair.

In loser breaks, the class and etiquette of each player can be shown in a much better light either way....and SPEED UP PLAY.

Also, I would highly consider the of use wooden racks as they create a wonderful sound of play, and like the Willards event at Pheasant Run IL they were embossed and players could sign em for the buyers and sellers.
These wooden racks, were made by a good friend of Vivian V. in TX and, were top notch. That additional' 'sound'' of play, is almost as nice as hearing the ball slapping against the back of a Gold Crown Pocket.

Here's why loser should rack, ''especially if they are Drop pockets''. Both players are seen (in the public eye), working together during play to assist and roll balls down table and interact. When your racking, your basically remembering what you did wrong/or not/making sure they are tight, and when your breaking, your doing the same but from the winners perspective and your prepping for breaking while your opponent is doing his job. I wouldn't be surprised if all matches ran at least 20-30 minutes quicker that the rack your own. Only next best thing is having refs/rack at each table, and we know that's not possible now.
With the increase in entry fees and overall costs, the caliber of players at this event is world class, therefore in the players meeting DEMAND that they act like true pros and give your opponent a rack as good as you would for yourself. It's time to stop babysitting adults until there is a ref at each table. You could also tell the players that constantly complain about bad racks, that if it keeps up, you can take a game away if needed for unsportsmanlike conduct....that's what rack mechanics are, cheaters plain and simple, they need to GO.

There were not that many massive break and run packages through out the entire history of the U.S. Open. If I'm wrong then remind me of all the massive packages, LOL

There's a lot of talk about massive packages but if you look through the Accu-stats
library there just aren't that many. I heard for years about Shanes 9 pack against Corey,
in the TAR race to 100. But in reality it was a 4 pack when I finally got to watch the match.

 

[IamCalvin06]

Personally I like this, you break from the spot. I've seen this used as a handicap in a money game and it changes everything!

I mean I think about this stuff all day. Ppl complain and I try to think of a solution that will limit the complaints. Only solution I can think of bc the "u must break hard" rule sounds too broad with nothing to gauge it.

Make everyone break from the spot and that should reduce the variables.

Jay responded positively to one of my post. My day is complete.

 

[jay helfert]

There were not that many massive break and run packages through out the entire history of the U.S. Open. If I'm wrong then remind me of all the massive packages, LOL

There's a lot of talk about massive packages but if you look through the Accu-stats
library there just aren't that many. I heard for years about Shanes 9 pack against Corey,
in the TAR race to 100. But in reality it was a 4 pack when I finally got to watch the match.

Earl was running five and six racks in every match when he dominated the U.S. Open, and all the other 9-Ball tournaments he played in. I saw good players get Earl down something like 7-2 and the next time they came to the table they were behind 9-7! At one time he was a speed above the world!

 

[JoeyA]

I would also send an email to the players themselves and NOT discuss who responds or what is said but get a consensus of opinion.

If you want to make 9 ball even more skillful, add the rule; if you miss, opponent gets cue ball in hand.

I'm not sure making the game more difficult is the way to go.

There is and will always be a certain amount of luck in 9 ball. Apple called 9 ball, "one of the most exciting games in the world" and it is, BECAUSE of the luck factor.

If you want to make the break fair, use one of those rack templates and to allow skill back into play, AND allow all of the players to pattern rack and alternate break. The three F's will come into being: FAST, FIERY, AND FAIR. This will allow the matches to be completed in a timely manner and each player will have a chance to demonstrate their prowess at the break and run.

JoeyA

 

[BRussell]

I don't like the idea of 3 balls having to pass the head string. You could make a ball on the break, have one object ball pass the head string and smack another ball that is headed to pass the head string (and that one doesn't) and that would be considered an invalid break. That imo, "sucks deep pond scum" (thanks George Fels) and IS bad luck.

What's wrong with luck being involved? If there's bad luck for you, you're just as likely to get good luck when your opponent fails to break properly. And if you figure out how to execute the break well, you'll have less "bad luck" than your opponent. It's not like it's ball-in-hand after an "illegal" break, it's just like a dry break.

I personally liked that World Cup of Pool break. Winner breaks, so in theory you can get on a run, but the three-ball rule makes it harder to execute properly, so it's closer to alternate break.

I know a lot of people didn't like it, but only if you have a mindset of trying to remove as much luck as possible.

 

[CSykes24]

lol... hardly 0. Not sure if that was sarcasm or not. The rules on the break/racking has changed numerous times during the US Open's history.

Definitely not sarcasm -- I've played for less than 5 years, with a few of those in complete disregard of what professional pool is.

But I can believe your statement there. Barry is always changing something.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Personally I like this, you break from the spot. I've seen this used as a handicap in a money game and it changes everything!

There it is then? :thumbup:
9 on the spot and break from the spot!
Whatever the outcome or resolution. May I suggest that Barry delivers a clear worldwide Press Release on the exact rules. I think it's only fair that all players have:
1. The opportunity to do some last minute practice
2. Not turn up to one of the games most prestigious events, only to be informed of a rules change having spent large amounts of $$$$ to be there!

 

[real bartram]

As TD this year it is my goal to make the rules as fair as possible for everyone. It will be a stellar field, full of great players, and for that I'm excited. Since this is a WPA sanctioned event we will follow their rules as closely as possible.

9-Ball, Texas Express, Winner Breaks and Rack Your Own for starters. We will be playing Foul on All Balls, which is the way most major events are played today all over the world. An incidental touch of a shirt sleeve will not constitute a foul unless the ball moves. It's actually much easier to officiate playing all ball fouls than playing cue ball fouls only. If a ball moves you fouled and there is no question about it.

The big question is how to rack the balls, and there is no clear WPA rule to cover that. We will definitely be using the break box and can either rack the one on the spot or the nine on the spot. The problem with racking the one on the spot is the wing ball is wired for one of the corner pockets, thus making a run-out that much easier. With the nine on the spot this is not the case. Most of the top players I've talked to support the idea of racking the nine on the spot. It makes for a better game requiring more skill. That's the way they do it on all Matchroom events and it seems to work pretty well for them.

Barry's goal as the promoter of this event is to make it the best test of pool in the USA, similar to the U.S. Open in golf. I'm still open to suggestions about this and anything else rule related. I seriously doubt we will require three or more balls to be pocketed or sent past the head string. But we will not allow soft breaking. A cut break is okay as long as a firm stroke is used.

Thanks for your input. Barry has a lot of faith in the members of this forum and he asked me to please put this out there for all to see. It also serves to inform the players in advance what rules we will be using.

Rack the 9 on the spot .
If you rack the 1 on the spot and a guy runs 3 racks
You should not be able to go check his rack and try to find some gap that means nothing and keep making him rerack .
Happened to me with a few players last year
They run 3 or 4 racks I sit in my chair and let them run out .
Now I run a few racks and they want me to rerack for 15 min.
I'll say this neils was 1 of the players who did not do this he just waited for his chance
Then he ran racks on me .

 

[jay helfert]

Okay guys, I just had a phone discussion with Barry and his feeling is we need to implement the rules now so players have time to get ready. The Open is one week away so that is ample time to prepare imo.

Based on the responses we've gotten the nine ball will be on the spot, the smaller break box (9") will be used and the balls will be racked with the one in front and the two in back. It's still Rack Your Own, Winner Breaks and your opponent can inspect the rack one time. We will monitor the matches from a podium in the middle of the arena (only nine tables) and watch for any soft breaking. Of course if a player feels his opponent is soft breaking he should inform us so we can observe the break.

Yes, fouls on all balls, with the same qualifier for incidental touching of a ball by a piece of clothing or hair. Once again if the ball moves it is a foul, no matter what.

By the way, Barry has made changes to the rules of play multiple times down through the years, all in the interest of keeping the U.S. Open as competitive as possible. Most of these players have played internationally, so they are familiar with the rules as stated above.

 

[real bartram]

Okay guys, I just had a phone discussion with Barry and his feeling is we need to implement the rules now so players have time to get ready. The Open is one week away so that is ample time to prepare imo.

Based on the responses we've gotten the nine ball will be on the spot, the smaller break box (9") will be used and the balls will be racked with the one in front and the two in back. It's still Rack Your Own, Winner Breaks and your opponent can inspect the rack one time. We will monitor the matches from a podium in the middle of the arena (only nine tables) and watch for any soft breaking. Of course if a player feels his opponent is soft breaking he should inform us so we can observe the break.

Yes, fouls on all balls, with the same qualifier for incidental touching of a ball by a piece of clothing or hair. Once again if the ball moves it is a foul, no matter what.

By the way, Barry has made changes to the rules of play multiple times down through the years, all in the interest of keeping the U.S. Open as competitive as possible. Most of these players have played internationally, so they are familiar with the rules as stated above.

That is good to give players a full week to prac the 9 on the spot break

 

[Ak Guy]

My thoughts...

I think the ref should rack and no one inspects the rack but the ref. Require a minimum 18 mph break speed. When your opponent is shooting sit in your chair and be quiet. No jumping on top of the table if you win, it's a pro pool game, not a high school foot ball game. Fly me down from Alaska to watch!

 

[iusedtoberich]

Jay, I'll ask the elephant in the room question:

Why are you involved in the US Open? I recall a couple years ago you swore up and down never again, and were quite public about it on these forums. Of course, we are all entitled to change our minds about anything. What has caused you to change your mind?

Thank you, Nick.

 

[real bartram]

Okay guys, I just had a phone discussion with Barry and his feeling is we need to implement the rules now so players have time to get ready. The Open is one week away so that is ample time to prepare imo.

Based on the responses we've gotten the nine ball will be on the spot, the smaller break box (9") will be used and the balls will be racked with the one in front and the two in back. It's still Rack Your Own, Winner Breaks and your opponent can inspect the rack one time. We will monitor the matches from a podium in the middle of the arena (only nine tables) and watch for any soft breaking. Of course if a player feels his opponent is soft breaking he should inform us so we can observe the break.

Yes, fouls on all balls, with the same qualifier for incidental touching of a ball by a piece of clothing or hair. Once again if the ball moves it is a foul, no matter what.

By the way, Barry has made changes to the rules of play multiple times down through the years, all in the interest of keeping the U.S. Open as competitive as possible. Most of these players have played internationally, so they are familiar with the rules as stated above.

With the 9 on the spot
Do you put a new spot for the 1 to go on ?

 

[IamCalvin06]

For gods sake break from the spot so I can say it was my idea lol.

 

[JoeyA]

I agree, rules should be available prior to any pool event.
JoeyA

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