WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN TILL NOW???
THANK YOU BENNY
THANK YOU BENNY
9ball without the break is NO 9ball...
- Thread starter Petros Andrikop
- Start date
A bit of hyperbole
OK, I freely admit a banger running packages is a slight exaggeration since when someone runs packages we don't call them a banger anymore. However I played a hell of a lot of people in bar rooms that would run out a nine ball rack pretty often if they made a ball and had a shot when they broke. If they had a "canned break" working like we see sometimes they could indeed have ran small packages.
Hu
OK, I freely admit a banger running packages is a slight exaggeration since when someone runs packages we don't call them a banger anymore. However I played a hell of a lot of people in bar rooms that would run out a nine ball rack pretty often if they made a ball and had a shot when they broke. If they had a "canned break" working like we see sometimes they could indeed have ran small packages.
Hu
Lack of trust
Would you want the other player's buddy doing the racking? How about the guy you put out last week? How about the player one of you in the match will be playing later? Might not matter then again it might. The neutral part would be very open to question with any player in the event racking.
Hu
Would you want the other player's buddy doing the racking? How about the guy you put out last week? How about the player one of you in the match will be playing later? Might not matter then again it might. The neutral part would be very open to question with any player in the event racking.
Hu
How do you make every pro's game weaker?
Way weaker. Well except for the Phillipine players just get rid of fast cloth. Watch a 400 ball runner kill their selves trying to get 125. Watch all 9 ball games get way harder than 10 ball.
Forget the break. Make this a game of skill like it was years ago. Not a putting match.
Watch 5 packs go away. Watch 10 packs never happen.
Slow cloth takes 10 times more skill and power to play on. Almost every pro will cry foul. Their games will be too weak to handle and dominate until they grow a whole new stroke.
Yup that is all it would take.
Nick
Way weaker. Well except for the Phillipine players just get rid of fast cloth. Watch a 400 ball runner kill their selves trying to get 125. Watch all 9 ball games get way harder than 10 ball.
Forget the break. Make this a game of skill like it was years ago. Not a putting match.
Watch 5 packs go away. Watch 10 packs never happen.
Slow cloth takes 10 times more skill and power to play on. Almost every pro will cry foul. Their games will be too weak to handle and dominate until they grow a whole new stroke.
Yup that is all it would take.
Nick
takeitdown
Banned
I'm not against big breaks, or players running packages.
What I think is the big issue is whether its augmented by the rigging or not.
If Jay Helfert racks them and someone runs 9, 10 or 11 racks, thats pretty damned cool. Oh wait, that did happen, once, didn't it?
It's the guys who are rigging it in their favor, with a patterned run-out, that is the issue. Or the guy who is racking for the breaker, rigging it so he can't make a ball.
I would love to see big runs, in a fair environment. The skill involved, from controlling the break to the actual run-out, that is amazing. On a level field, er-table.
Again all this "rack mechanic BS is just sour grapes from guys who don't put in the time on their break. Yes nobody should allow rack your own and you don't touch the rack after its been put up. If there were neutral racking we would clearly see all this hype is just excuses.
For instance look at Jayson Shaw. A guy who has so much shooting ability that when his breaking gets to Dechaine or SVB level he will be a monster. If he's not making a ball with a shot on the 1 he won't be able to show us the firepower. Do you change the game to ensure he gets out of the chair more often? I'd say no.
When they took "2-shot pushout" out of 9 ball the game fell all apart. That game incorporated all of those skills because it took the "lucky" rolls out of the game that occur during one-foul 9 ball.
In most cases, the "better all-round" player wins in 2-foul 9 ball.
I see you're point but it's a worth a shot I think. A random player drawn as neutral racker could help bring some integrity back to the game.
Or we could just rack the 9 on the spot and use the magic rack to help eliminate the BS that happens.
It's a wishful thought on my part I guess but then again maybe I don't know the players well enough.
Gary
On the contrary, the guys who spend the time working on their break will be the ones to benefit when you get rid of the mechanics. Cuz they don't need the foolishness.
That's what I want to see. Shane's break is gonna be awesome, regardless of who racks, if it's a fair rack. For many in the field, that may not be as true.
Now if what you mean by "putting in time on their break" is to learn how to manipulate the rack....well, I guess that's not the kind of "work" i'm envisioning.
it is a good thought
Gary,
It is a good thought and at least an effort to try to solve the problem. I see the issues because I have competed with groups of people much of the time over the last forty years and change. Hard to believe the games people will play and the effort they will go to trying to win by taking shortcuts.
There was some contraption that positioned the balls the exact same distance out from the rail every time and prevented twist. Didn't seem like a bad idea in principle but it was so ridiculous looking I think it was a nonstarter.
I see people from Mexico playing a game that is basically a drill, all the balls are arranged along the rails to begin with. The last part of a snooker game is often basically a drill too. I would hate to lose the break but sometimes I think taking it out of the game would make things go much faster and often be the fairer thing to do. I have mixed feelings about how much reward there should be for the person that can dope out the best break, no doubts at all that the break shouldn't be about who can cheat the best!
One way I got good racks in tournaments, I'd carefully look over the other player's first rack for a couple minutes when we were racking for each other. Invariably they would have to ask "Something wrong?" or a question along those lines.
"No, just looking for gaps or tilt to exploit."
I got very careful racks after that!
Hu
Gary,
It is a good thought and at least an effort to try to solve the problem. I see the issues because I have competed with groups of people much of the time over the last forty years and change. Hard to believe the games people will play and the effort they will go to trying to win by taking shortcuts.
There was some contraption that positioned the balls the exact same distance out from the rail every time and prevented twist. Didn't seem like a bad idea in principle but it was so ridiculous looking I think it was a nonstarter.
I see people from Mexico playing a game that is basically a drill, all the balls are arranged along the rails to begin with. The last part of a snooker game is often basically a drill too. I would hate to lose the break but sometimes I think taking it out of the game would make things go much faster and often be the fairer thing to do. I have mixed feelings about how much reward there should be for the person that can dope out the best break, no doubts at all that the break shouldn't be about who can cheat the best!
One way I got good racks in tournaments, I'd carefully look over the other player's first rack for a couple minutes when we were racking for each other. Invariably they would have to ask "Something wrong?" or a question along those lines.
"No, just looking for gaps or tilt to exploit."
I got very careful racks after that!
Hu
Maybe I'm just naive!!:smile:
I honestly try to see the best in people but maybe I'm still sheltered from the "real world".
Funny thing I do is when racking for me opponent I check to make sure there are no gaps so I don't slug rack them.
For myself, I just throw them up there and whack them. But I have a pretty good 9 ball break so I don't sweat it that much.
Gary
this is US Open not Eurotour not China or Japan Open
so
it must be different
it must be for pros only
no alternate breaks ,
1 ball on the spot break with cb anywere in the kitchen(wing ball 99% in,so what?)
3-5 packages so what?
its US Open pros travel, pay more than 1k or maybe 2k but they choose it,
magic rack? no ,imo a special wooden rack with the US Open logo on it would be better - after all there is an art at rack your own.
9 ball born to be a fast and loose players game
I still think Earl is the man in this game :wink:
so
it must be different
it must be for pros only
no alternate breaks ,
1 ball on the spot break with cb anywere in the kitchen(wing ball 99% in,so what?)
3-5 packages so what?
its US Open pros travel, pay more than 1k or maybe 2k but they choose it,
magic rack? no ,imo a special wooden rack with the US Open logo on it would be better - after all there is an art at rack your own.
9 ball born to be a fast and loose players game
I still think Earl is the man in this game :wink:
takeitdown
Banned
So what pros specifically are you referring to?
I am saying when other players say Dechaine is a rack mechanic it's because their break isn't on par. If he makes a ball 70% of the time and 75% of the time he makes a ball he can see the lowest number ball is that an accident? is it magic? No it's called hard work that results in one of the best breaks out there.
So yes if a guy like him or SVB or whoever practiced breaking 20 hours a week is more successful on the break and because of that he beats 95% of the pros out there...I can live with that.
I don't care what tournament it is at any level, only 3 guys there are supposed to win anyway. Nothing short of races to 2 will ever change that.
It would be nice if they were the three guys that were the best players though (shooting, position, strategy, etc) and not just the three guys who were the best breakers/rackers.
I say if we want pool to primarily be about breaking (which it is getting really close to or arguably already there) we should just have breaking tournaments. Myself I prefer pool to primarily be about the shot making, position, strategy, etc, and it should be those things that most dictate who wins, not the break.
The single biggest factor by far that determines who wins is the break and that is absolute nonsense. That isn't pool. I could see a reasonable argument for wanting shot making to be the biggest determining factor in who wins. I could see a reasonable argument for wanting position play to be the biggest determining factor in who wins. I could see a reasonable argument for wanting strategy and patterns to be the biggest determining factor in who wins. I could see a reasonable argument for wanting safety play to be the biggest determining factor in who wins. But what I can't see a reasonable argument for is for the break to be a bigger determining factor in who wins than all of those other things combined are. That's dumb, and it isn't pool. It's simply a racking and breaking contest.
The break is not an easy thing to master, like all other parts. Makes no sense to take out the skill difference between two players in any part of the game. As long as a fair environment is achieved (for eg racking for opponent using a membrane) there should be no problem.
It will be interesting to measure statistics in the following US open since they decided to go for 9 on the spot and small box, how many run outs will take place by some of the best players of the world, and have a research afterwards asking people how are they feeling about the results.
Surely everybody will enjoy the US open no matter what, but I will enjoy every 9ball singles tournament more if it contains several run outs instead of a run out every now and then.
As another member wrote, 9ball is a rotation game, may I add it's a game of high thrills, a game of break and clear and enjoy this view by top players, with a few safety battles between and only a little room for errors.
That's what 9ball is all about, and turning it into something else is not good for the game, in the past we wouldn't be talking about a "possible" full field of players and the way the game is played today is one of the reasons this is happening...
It will be interesting to measure statistics in the following US open since they decided to go for 9 on the spot and small box, how many run outs will take place by some of the best players of the world, and have a research afterwards asking people how are they feeling about the results.
Surely everybody will enjoy the US open no matter what, but I will enjoy every 9ball singles tournament more if it contains several run outs instead of a run out every now and then.
As another member wrote, 9ball is a rotation game, may I add it's a game of high thrills, a game of break and clear and enjoy this view by top players, with a few safety battles between and only a little room for errors.
That's what 9ball is all about, and turning it into something else is not good for the game, in the past we wouldn't be talking about a "possible" full field of players and the way the game is played today is one of the reasons this is happening...
If you ask anyone who was playing back in the 80s, 9-ball was a totally different game than it is today. Since then, the rules and equipment have evolved tremendously and it really has become a bit of a breaking contest for the higher caliber players. Even at lower levels of play, the results of the break can have a massive impact on the outcome of a match. Some people find that exciting, others don't. Personally, I would rather watch precision shot making, strategy and position play be the predominate factors in deciding a match, so I enjoy watching just about any other pool game over modern 9-ball. I do have to admit that it's still fun to go smash 'em and run out, but out-shooting my opponent has never been as satisfying as out-playing my opponent to me.
And why should the player who doesn't brake as good be given more chances to outplay his opponent who has done the necessary hard work in order to be breaking better?....
Where is the thrill in this game when no run outs occur, where is the thrill of real pressure when a player knows that missing a ball doesn't matter too much because his opponent can't fully use a skill that he does better than him?....
Where is the fairness in that?...
Where is the thrill in this game when no run outs occur, where is the thrill of real pressure when a player knows that missing a ball doesn't matter too much because his opponent can't fully use a skill that he does better than him?....
Where is the fairness in that?...
With all the banter recently about pro players dumping matches, pro players rigging racks, it's becoming crystal clear exactly who has turned off the mainstream audience and the big corporate sponsors. There are more pool leagues currently than I ever remember seeing for the average joe (although in bars instead of pool halls now), but it's the pro events where attendance and financials continue to decline. Next time someone says we have to get a new pro tour to get pool into the mainstream, I'm going to laugh in their face.
Spectators largely support the pro tours. So the events will have to cater to those people supplying the livelihood to the players. To me, rules like illegal breaks when balls are pocketed, and 1 foul ball in hand take the el numero uno thing spectators are expecting to see. Balls dropping in pockets!
Sure, position and safeties takes skill, but so does chess and cross-stitching but people won't sit and watch those very long either.
Have you guys ever played pool in front of people and have them all "oohing and aahing"? I have several times, and I'm not a C, B, A, semi or pro player. Position doesn't get people excited. Watching and wondering what the hell someone is going to do next is what gets people engaged. Ducking and running to safety whenever the percentages are low...that doesn't excite anyone. In all the times I've watched artistic pool/trickshot events, I've never once see a shot to execute a miraculous safety.
I realize my rant is not completely on point with the topic at hand here, but seems relevant to the theme of this thread and others recently. Jazz was once bigger than it is, but it also got far too technical for mainstream. Perfection tends to get boring after a while.
As for breaking, I tend to favor the stance of Petros and others. If there are concerns about people not playing fair, those are ethical violations and should not be addressed by making fundamental game changes, imo. You institute rules for ethics and enforce them fairly. Shouldn't have to change the fundamental rules of the game when those rules aren't the things operating unfairly.
Spectators largely support the pro tours. So the events will have to cater to those people supplying the livelihood to the players. To me, rules like illegal breaks when balls are pocketed, and 1 foul ball in hand take the el numero uno thing spectators are expecting to see. Balls dropping in pockets!
Sure, position and safeties takes skill, but so does chess and cross-stitching but people won't sit and watch those very long either.
Have you guys ever played pool in front of people and have them all "oohing and aahing"? I have several times, and I'm not a C, B, A, semi or pro player. Position doesn't get people excited. Watching and wondering what the hell someone is going to do next is what gets people engaged. Ducking and running to safety whenever the percentages are low...that doesn't excite anyone. In all the times I've watched artistic pool/trickshot events, I've never once see a shot to execute a miraculous safety.
I realize my rant is not completely on point with the topic at hand here, but seems relevant to the theme of this thread and others recently. Jazz was once bigger than it is, but it also got far too technical for mainstream. Perfection tends to get boring after a while.
As for breaking, I tend to favor the stance of Petros and others. If there are concerns about people not playing fair, those are ethical violations and should not be addressed by making fundamental game changes, imo. You institute rules for ethics and enforce them fairly. Shouldn't have to change the fundamental rules of the game when those rules aren't the things operating unfairly.
I believe a lot of the problem has come from Magic Rack and other forms of rack standardizing tools (Sardo, etc.). I know with the Magic Rack the wingball is wired to the corner pocket, goes damn near every time no matter how good or bad you break. I think the rule changes have been implemented not to remove the break but to make it a skill again. JMHO.
Seems like the Matchroom/Mosconi cup rules work. 9 on the spot, break from the box. There are also other more radical solutions if need be.