Lifespan of a shaft?

[Hits 'em Hard]

To add....the tightness of the grain has a lot to do with it. That why hard rock maple is usually used. It grown in northern areas, grows slower, so it has tighter rings in the tree.
Musicians that play violins seek a Stradavarious. The wood used was grown in the dark ages and has a very tight grain.

Wrong. The reason those instruments are so highly sought after is what happened to the wood before I was crafted into an instrument. Back then water ways were used to transport everything. The nice thing about wood, it floated. The bad thing about back then, no EPA. There were chemicals in the water that were very hazardous to a persons health. But those same chemicals absorbed into the wood, transforming the cellular structure of the wood. It made the wood produce a lower, richer tone in comparison to other makers.

As for shafts, yes they can go bad. Even though shafts are made from hard rock maple, it's still soft. Through usage the shaft will become compacted. It's why it takes years, 10+, of using the same shaft daily for it to 'wear' out. But the shaft doesn't go bad, it just becomes stiffer and plays different.

 

[qbilder]

the one thing a cue maker, two plece or more, cannot replicate or produce a better product than is the solid hit and feel of a well made one piece.

The difference between 2-piece cues and house cues is that house cues are MUCH thicker in the area where the joint would otherwise be in a 2-piece cue. That very thick mid section of a house cue is why they feel more solid. It's not because they are more solid. It's only because they have a lot more meat. I'm not sure why the standard size for 2-piece cues are so much thinner, but that's why they don't seem as solid.

Any house cue cut and a joint installed will still hit, play, and feel exactly the same as they did before they were cut. Once they get re-tapered and/or sanded, changes begin to happen. Those changes are as severe as the extent of material removed. This is where the sneaky pete came from. Players wanting their favorite house cues to become 2-piece.

 

[qbilder]

As for shafts, yes they can go bad. Even though shafts are made from hard rock maple, it's still soft. Through usage the shaft will become compacted. It's why it takes years, 10+, of using the same shaft daily for it to 'wear' out. But the shaft doesn't go bad, it just becomes stiffer and plays different.

Is there any solid evidence to support this? Or just opinion?

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

shaft

There are allot of factors on how long a shaft will last.

You might look into buying your own cue repair lathe,.
I would buy some denatured alcohol and carnauba wax.

Farmer

 

[HueblerHustler7]

I'm sure You'll be fine if you have been playing with that same shaft for that long, only problem I hear is the ferrules are sort of brittle on the WD model that why they changed it to the new WX700 Shaft is amazing paired with a Zan premium soft tip.

-Drew

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Is there any solid evidence to support this? Or just opinion?

No evidence I can show right at this moment. I have had one shaft start to do this to me on my old Schon. Never cleaned the shaft for a year after I got the cue. It was 13.1mm an inch behind the ferrule when I got it. After that year, it was 12.95mm at the same spot. I was playing 30+ hours a week, so I know a lot of use happened. Same thing happened to another fellows SW shafts. Each one lasts the guy about 7-8 years before they become too skinny for him to use. It isn't that the shafts turn bad. They just aren't at the point of comfort anymore.

No one locally has had a LD shaft long enough, that plays a lot, so I can't comment on their life span. But there's nothing that prevents a shaft from being used until it literally snaps. It's all how comfortable you are using it. Also it's noted that a sometimes shaft will feel smooth until it's spun on a lathe. Then you can feel 'low' spots from where the shaft has been 'dented'. Usually happens when a shaft is drug along the edge of a table with force creating a spot where the wood becomes compacted down.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Wrong. The reason those instruments are so highly sought after is what happened to the wood before I was crafted into an instrument. Back then water ways were used to transport everything. The nice thing about wood, it floated. The bad thing about back then, no EPA. There were chemicals in the water that were very hazardous to a persons health. But those same chemicals absorbed into the wood, transforming the cellular structure of the wood. It made the wood produce a lower, richer tone in comparison to other makers.

As for shafts, yes they can go bad. Even though shafts are made from hard rock maple, it's still soft. Through usage the shaft will become compacted. It's why it takes years, 10+, of using the same shaft daily for it to 'wear' out. But the shaft doesn't go bad, it just becomes stiffer and plays different.

Ok. I guess you are right...the scientists that were on PBS are wrong. The trees grown during the 200 or so years of the dark ages were in a much colder climate with a much shorter growing period. There was very little or no industry back then. Where did all of this pollution come from. Just telling you what was said on PBS Documentary.

To add... the wood used in those violins was grown primarily in europe, during the dark ages. Choice of wood was just as important as choosing wood for a pool cue. That is not however the only reason the are so acoustically desirable. Some say the formula used for the varnish was just as important.

 

[Black-Balled]

Wrong. The reason those instruments are so highly sought after is what happened to the wood before I was crafted into an instrument. Back then.

Instrument of good or evil? Fess up.

 

[qbilder]

This thread has more superstitions and myths and make believe than a Marvel comic book. Shafts are made from wood. Wood is a well documented material. All it takes is a little time and some google searching to find out anything you want to know. Shafts have no expiration date. They will last forever if cared for. And if you wash your hands regularly to keep the chalk & grit from gradually eating away wood, then your shaft will stay the same diameter forever. But don't take my word for it. If you're on this forum then you obviously have internet, which means you can find any fact you want regarding wood. Might also be beneficial to see if age affects wood, or if number of grain lines make a difference. Some folks may be surprised with the reality.

 

[buckshotshoey]

This thread has more superstitions and myths and make believe than a Marvel comic book. Shafts are made from wood. Wood is a well documented material. All it takes is a little time and some google searching to find out anything you want to know. Shafts have no expiration date. They will last forever if cared for. And if you wash your hands regularly to keep the chalk & grit from gradually eating away wood, then your shaft will stay the same diameter forever. But don't take my word for it. If you're on this forum then you obviously have internet, which means you can find any fact you want regarding wood. Might also be beneficial to see if age affects wood, or if number of grain lines make a difference. Some folks may be surprised with the reality.

Enlighten us. If grain density is meaningless, then why isn't maple grown in the south used more? Tight grain means denser wood.

 

[owll]

This thread has more superstitions and myths and make believe than a Marvel comic book. Shafts are made from wood. Wood is a well documented material. All it takes is a little time and some google searching to find out anything you want to know. Shafts have no expiration date. They will last forever if cared for. And if you wash your hands regularly to keep the chalk & grit from gradually eating away wood, then your shaft will stay the same diameter forever. But don't take my word for it. If you're on this forum then you obviously have internet, which means you can find any fact you want regarding wood. Might also be beneficial to see if age affects wood, or if number of grain lines make a difference. Some folks may be surprised with the reality.

ive got a question, i would like your opinion on. ive got a schon shaft ive been using regularly for about 8 years or so (and i bought cue used). It seems to hit better than my other 3 shafts some of which ive had almost as long. Im thinking oils from hands have soaked into wood making it more of a solid hit....does this sound right?

 

[qbilder]

Tight grain means denser wood.

Prove it. That's the point of the post you quoted. If you believe it enough to preach it, then provide the evidence. Opinion and truth aren't always the same. Hearing it from me means as much as hearing it from anybody, but learning it for yourself trumps all.

 

[qbilder]

ive got a question, i would like your opinion on. ive got a schon shaft ive been using regularly for about 8 years or so (and i bought cue used). It seems to hit better than my other 3 shafts some of which ive had almost as long. Im thinking oils from hands have soaked into wood making it more of a solid hit....does this sound right?

It hits better because it's better wood. Not all wood is the same. Many of us cue makers choose wood by tonal characteristics, which are a reflection of the wood's ability to transmit power. I'd fair to guess that the shaft you enjoy most is also the shaft that has the highest, cleanest resonance.

Otherwise it could be a difference in ferrule material, tip, taper shape, size, and how the weight effects balance. These are all variables with merit. A lot of times, players are clueless to how much the cue's balance makes a difference in how well they play with it, but they notice the difference so they think it's a better cue. It could something as simple as the shaft you like best is the one weighted just right to give the cue balance that works best for you. Have you weighed each shaft & measured the balance point of the cue with each shaft?

 

[buckshotshoey]

Prove it. That's the point of the post you quoted. If you believe it enough to preach it, then provide the evidence. Opinion and truth aren't always the same. Hearing it from me means as much as hearing it from anybody, but learning it for yourself trumps all.

Why? You seem to run your mouth pretty good without proving anything. You said look it up. Well do it.

 

[gregcantrall]

Ok. I guess you are right...the scientists that were on PBS are wrong. The trees grown during the 200 or so years of the dark ages were in a much colder climate with a much shorter growing period. There was very little or no industry back then. Where did all of this pollution come from. Just telling you what was said on PBS Documentary.

To add... the wood used in those violins was grown primarily in europe, during the dark ages. Choice of wood was just as important as choosing wood for a pool cue. That is not however the only reason the are so acoustically desirable. Some say the formula used for the varnish was just as important.

[QUOTE="Hits 'em Hard, post: 4773043, member: 76528"], heh, can't imagine Mr. Hard being wrong. Oh yea, seems I remember a thread where he said "I'll say that within a 99.999999999% certainty that the flooring is particle board."[/URL]
Remind me next to write a damn essay about why I'm saying everything. I'll say that within a 99.999999999% certainty that the flooring is particle board. Why do I say that? Because it's ****ing cheap. Does anyone ever buy a trailer/mobile home under the idea that it's built to the same standards as a regular house? Please Greg, just stop responding. It's getting tiresome listening to you. You don't have the experience dealing with this shit like I do, so stop playing devil's adovcate and just go away.

More of Mr. Hards knowledge.....
"No, I'm telling him that due to the construction of his home, if he doesn't take precaution when putting that table in. It could, if like all the other trailers I've been around, suffers from any water damage (even minor) the floor could fail. And if Greg wouldn't of opened his mouth to insinuate he was the one with knowledge and everyone else was trolling and giving bad advise, I would of responded differently. But if you think Greg's advise is best, are you or Greg willing to foot the bill for that person to come out and look over the situation and advise on what steps to take? Because I have a hunch that the guy will cost more than the work will."

Now the truth..."The decking under this house is OSB on 16" centers."

So, Mr. Hard when he is 99.999999999% sure, is still wrong.......Guess which orifice he is talking out of.

 

[qbilder]

Why? You seem to run your mouth pretty good without proving anything. You said look it up. Well do it.

YWhy the aggressive tone? I know all I need to know about the subject. I don't need to look anything up. If I need to, or have doubts about something you say, then I will do my research and find the facts. That's what I recommended folks do, so that they can have the factual knowledge first hand. Why is that such an offense?

 

[buckshotshoey]

Ill go first....

From Lowes website

Wood GrainEach tree has its own grain pattern, so two boards of the same species can look very different. Wood grain is the direction in which the wood cell fibers grow. These variances in grain direction can have a significant impact on your project.The grain direction is important to consider when building either structural projects or decorative projects such as furniture or crafts. For instance, when working on a structural application, a straight-grained board is generally the strongest. In more decorative projects, grain with varying characteristics can add beauty and personality to the project. Grain pattern density determines strength. As you'd expect, a piece of lumber with a tight pattern is stronger than one with a loose grain pattern.

I'm talking about grain structure....not rings in the tree. But the 2 are sometimes related.

 

[qbilder]

First of all, you assume I disagree with you. Read my posts again and you'll see I never disagreed (or agreed) with anything or anyone except that shafts have a life span. I made it clear that there are lots of myths floating about, and that a person would do themselves a favor by doing the research themselves before blindly believing, and may be surprised at what they find. You have at least taken the initiative, though I would recommend staying away from commercial sites. You'll get real data and studies from a ".org" or ".edu" or ".fed". Anything ".com" is likely commercially based and biased, or else is another forum like this where anybody can pretend to be an expert.

If you really are interested in how to determine what to look for in a shaft when looking at the grain, then study up on the differences between early wood and late wood, and how they affect strength. Also look into juvenile wood vs. mature wood, and heart wood vs. sap wood. For reference, we use sap wood in shafts. It turns out there is much more to the strength of wood than grain count. Quality of grain is a much more important factor. Just because it grew slow doesn't mean it was a healthy tree that produced good wood. And likewise, just because it grew fast doesn't mean it produced junk. In fact, counting grain lines in a shaft is pointless. It's not the number of grain lines you should be considering, but more the ratio in size of early/late sections of each grain. Not only will this observation dictate density and strength, but also harmonic characteristics. Here's some good reading to get you started, if you really are interested. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_03.pdf

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Ok. I guess you are right...the scientists that were on PBS are wrong. The trees grown during the 200 or so years of the dark ages were in a much colder climate with a much shorter growing period. There was very little or no industry back then. Where did all of this pollution come from. Just telling you what was said on PBS Documentary.

To add... the wood used in those violins was grown primarily in europe, during the dark ages. Choice of wood was just as important as choosing wood for a pool cue. That is not however the only reason the are so acoustically desirable. Some say the formula used for the varnish was just as important.

So your only source is a PBS broadcast on the subject? Glad that overrides my first hand knowledge on that subject. Good thing we settled that. And FYI the dark ages ended 300 years before the trees used in those instruments could have even started growing. The era is known as the little ice age. Another thing to be aware of, is that people have tried to recreate those instruments. None have produced the same tonal quality. Even same era instruments don't sound the same. It was something in the water during the transit of the woods from harvest to use that changed something about the wood.

This thread has more superstitions and myths and make believe than a Marvel comic book. Shafts are made from wood. Wood is a well documented material. All it takes is a little time and some google searching to find out anything you want to know. Shafts have no expiration date. They will last forever if cared for. And if you wash your hands regularly to keep the chalk & grit from gradually eating away wood, then your shaft will stay the same diameter forever. But don't take my word for it. If you're on this forum then you obviously have internet, which means you can find any fact you want regarding wood. Might also be beneficial to see if age affects wood, or if number of grain lines make a difference. Some folks may be surprised with the reality.

Not all wood is the same.

So no matter what, all hard rock maple shafts should withstand the same (ab)use*. *As long as the shafts meet a certain minimum density. I thought this was proven already that growth rings have no causation on density, or a correlation? As for the bolded part above. It is possible to compress the wood to cause wood to become 'denser'. That doesn't mean the structural integrity of the wood stays the same. What I'm saying is that the diameter of a shaft doesn't have to be sanded to reduce it. It can be reduced without removing material.

Yes I do agree that a shaft should last forever assuming it's never hit, stored and cared for properly. But with any use, it will slowly be eaten away by the dirt and grim on your hand. Now assuming someone doesn't have any bad habits, always has clean hands. No reason that shaft should ever change.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

I don't know much on the subject other than I def know exactly what I like.

And with that said, I have shot with quite a few of qbuilders cues (sugartree) and these are so consistently terrific hitters that I have to believe his shaft wood is amongst the best in the industry.

whatever he is doing, it's working pretty freaking good. :thumbup:

carry on.

best,
brian kc <---pretty sure his dowels aren't coming from Lowes. :grin: