Is it REALLY winning if you win with a big handicap?

J

Jeff Rosen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Although I've gone to pool rooms most of my 61 years I only started playing competively (leagues & tournaments) about a year ago. Before that I only played with friends, family, or girls I were dating. So I'm not that good. I'm basically an APA "3" although people say I should be a four. I'm in 3 leagues, an APA, a Mega Bucks, and a straight pool league. In the APA and Mega Bucks I usually play people on or close to my skill level. However in my 14.1 league the majority of the players are pro or semi pro level. I really am out of my league and I really have no real business being there. But I love straight pool and want to learn.
Well last night I'm playing the second best guy in the league. They give us a very embarrassing (to me) race of 150 to 26. Well, I played bad, missing easy shots and my biggest run was 4. Twice I was on 2 fouls and close to losing 15 points. Well, I ended getting 26 when my opponent "only" had 136. He shakes my hand and says good match, good playing. I had to be honest and said "I might have won for the league standings, but you really won the match and I'm sorry you had to lose this way. What could I say? I went home feeling I lost the match!!
 
Jeff Rosen said:
... But I love straight pool and want to learn.
Well last night I'm playing the second best guy in the league. They give us a very embarrassing (to me) race of 150 to 26. Well, I played bad, missing easy shots and my biggest run was 4. Twice I was on 2 fouls and close to losing 15 points. Well, I ended getting 26 when my opponent "only" had 136. He shakes my hand and says good match, good playing. I had to be honest and said "I might have won for the league standings, but you really won the match and I'm sorry you had to lose this way. What could I say? I went home feeling I lost the match!!
Click to expand...

Handicaps are there to make a generally even game between two different skill levels. He got close, but you did well for how you're expected to do at your level. To me, that's a personal win. People can moan all day long about the handicaps, but this isn't professional pool. If you continue to do well, the handicap gets adjusted and you have something to measure your performance against, even though in a "straight-up" game, you'd be losing. I enjoy watching my friends bust their butts to try moving up the skill ladder and they obviously enjoy it, too, or they wouldn't continue playing.

I'm a 7/9 and whether I lose to a 2/1 or 7/9, I give em the congrats and go about having a fun night. Others appreciate being treated respectfully and for those lower players, that may be the highlight of their season or more. To take that away with poor sportsmanship/attitude is just lame. Heck, it also lets them know that folks at all various levels of play can enjoy the game and not be a tool about it.

On the flip side, when I'm giving up a big spot, I've got to play well to win. To do anything less and then make some excuse about the handicap is a disservice to myself and the game. When I lose giving up a handicap, either the luck was with my opponent(happens at all levels) or they outplayed me for our respective skills.

Have fun and keep up the good work.
 
I like your attitude, keep playing and get better so you can play at an even level.

I don't care if a handicap evens out a skill disparity, there are some that just are better naturally at pool and many that have more time to practice or have learned now to learn to play better and advanced faster than others.

That is what leagues and handicapped tournaments try to do, some do OK, some go well some fail but it's a failure not of the handicap but of those that abuse it to just win.

Yes, you would not have beaten him even, but that does not mean that you did not "win" the match. It seems to have been a close game which means you both played up to your skill level.

The only time I think anyone should feel like an idiot with getting a spot is if a guy is running his mouth about looking for a game, he'll play anyone, then someone goes to play and the player making the noise immediatly starts with "well, what are you gonna give me?". No, actually two times, some people do the opposite of what you do, they win with a big spot and then go around for weeks bragging how they beat so and so. I lost a league match then all night long I heard him say how he beat the best player on our team LOL Sure, beating someone on a bad table with a mud ball when you need 2 wins to my 6 is sooo haard....
 
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seems like you have it about right

Jeff,

Seems like you see things pretty well. It is a win when you beat somebody with a big handicap, the "W" goes by your name. It isn't a win to brag about though. It isn't a win to be embarrassed about either, just taking care of business.

As far as the formalities, your opponent should congratulate you and you should accept their congratulations graciously. Then the match should be basically forgotten.

Keep playing in the 14.1 league and keep playing up to your handicap and you will earn most other players respect. Nobody started with big runs.

Hu
 
Jeff Rosen said:
Although I've gone to pool rooms most of my 61 years I only started playing competively (leagues & tournaments) about a year ago. Before that I only played with friends, family, or girls I were dating. So I'm not that good. I'm basically an APA "3" although people say I should be a four. I'm in 3 leagues, an APA, a Mega Bucks, and a straight pool league. In the APA and Mega Bucks I usually play people on or close to my skill level. However in my 14.1 league the majority of the players are pro or semi pro level. I really am out of my league and I really have no real business being there. But I love straight pool and want to learn.
Well last night I'm playing the second best guy in the league. They give us a very embarrassing (to me) race of 150 to 26. Well, I played bad, missing easy shots and my biggest run was 4. Twice I was on 2 fouls and close to losing 15 points. Well, I ended getting 26 when my opponent "only" had 136. He shakes my hand and says good match, good playing. I had to be honest and said "I might have won for the league standings, but you really won the match and I'm sorry you had to lose this way. What could I say? I went home feeling I lost the match!!
Click to expand...

I do not feel it is a real win when i win with a handycap, not that anyone is offering! a real win and big joy is when i play even or giving the weight
 
I can't comment much on league play.....but in gambling....
...some of the biggest hearts I saw were people GETTING the handicaps.
 
Nearly all the handicap-moaning that I've seen on AZB has been in regards to what handicap is assigned to a particular player (sandbagging, TD favoring, etc).

In your match your opponent probably felt the handicap was fair (it sounds like it was) and he expected to win if he played up to his ability. I'm sure he was disappointed to lose, but probably blamed his own missed shots for the loss...not your handicap.

____________

I can understand if a 9 has to play me (probably a 4) and feels like it's wasted time because he's hardly going to be challenged to sharpen his skills, play his absolute best, etc. That really is a shame, but it's sometimes necessary in league play.

Let's look at it this way: if I was playing one-on-one basketball with Lebron James, with a 20/4 handicap...and I miraculously scored two baskets, I'd be ecstatic!
 
As someone who often plays stronger players with some weight, and also plays weaker players socially or in leagues with no handicaps...I'd have to say that winning with a handicap against a stronger player is as legit (or more) as winning against a weaker player with no handicap. I've beaten lesser players in tournaments or just socially, and while winning is always easier to handle than losing, I have a hard time patting myself on the back for these "wins".

In the scenario explained by the OP, winning a 14.1 race to 150 against someone who's max run is 4...that's no victory, imo, unless you yourself can't run more than 4 balls. There may be "gains" but definitely nothing "earned" there. That's usually referred to as "stealing" or "robbing".

Winning with a handicap doesn't mean you're better than your opponent, it just means you played better (based on your skill level) for that game or match. So to answer the question of "is it really winning?" The answer is yes, it is. Does is mean you played better than your opponent? Yes, it does. Does it mean you are more skilled or a better player than your opponent? No, it does not.

For anyone that feels guilty about getting weight or a handicap because it doesn't feel "real"...remember that the stronger player may want a "real" win also...and the only way to get that from you is by giving up a little weight to even the playing field, and force them to actually have to "earn" a victory...rather than just be handed one. Unless a weaker player is paying to play a stronger player...there's no benefit to the stronger player by playing the weaker player because only one is being tested and forced to improve.
 
Jeff,

Several years ago when we still had a 14.1 league in Rochester, one of the matches I played involved giving another player a 150 to 40 game. Damn if he didn't run 16 balls. Forced me to play the game my rating indicated. Did wind up winning. Both ran racks and played several lock up key safeties. It works both ways. For you to win, you have to play your best. For your opponent, they have to do the same. Either way, it's a win. Nothing less.

Good luck and keep practicing.

Lyn
 
I would ask is it losing when a player gives up the nuts and loses? Like a non world beater AA giving an APA 7 the 7 out and a game.

These guys beat me with spots I would take from touring pros. It's nonsense really. Fortunately the better player usually wins.
 
Don't be hard on yourself Jeff. Handicaps are there so everyone can compete and have fun.

His points were close so you didn't run away with the game. He was trying to beat you and almost did. It sounds to me that the handicap was set pretty right on.

If you were having fun, thats all that counts so don't lose any sleep over it.

It was a good showing on both of your behalves.
 
handicaps

Jeff Rosen said:
Although I've gone to pool rooms most of my 61 years I only started playing competively (leagues & tournaments) about a year ago. Before that I only played with friends, family, or girls I were dating. So I'm not that good. I'm basically an APA "3" although people say I should be a four. I'm in 3 leagues, an APA, a Mega Bucks, and a straight pool league. In the APA and Mega Bucks I usually play people on or close to my skill level. However in my 14.1 league the majority of the players are pro or semi pro level. I really am out of my league and I really have no real business being there. But I love straight pool and want to learn.
Well last night I'm playing the second best guy in the league. They give us a very embarrassing (to me) race of 150 to 26. Well, I played bad, missing easy shots and my biggest run was 4. Twice I was on 2 fouls and close to losing 15 points. Well, I ended getting 26 when my opponent "only" had 136. He shakes my hand and says good match, good playing. I had to be honest and said "I might have won for the league standings, but you really won the match and I'm sorry you had to lose this way. What could I say? I went home feeling I lost the match!!
Click to expand...

Without handicaps bowling leagues would never have been the great success that they were. The same for pool leagues.

Some may hate leagues and handicaps, but well over half a million people play in pool leagues in the US. Without them, pool would really be dead.

It does bother me just a tad though, that theoretically you can be a national champion in the APA without ever having actually won a single game of pool in your life...
 
almost every game i played was with a big handicap

i won some lost some

i enjoyed the thrill of playing most of the great players of my time and literally dozens of good players

i certainly knew the difference between winning and losing


I also have trouble with the whole idea of improving by playing even with better players

If you swallow that line of thinking,I suggest you stay as far as possible from gambling and enjoy the rest
It was my personal experience that I got as good as I ever would with a year or two and couldn't improve after that,it is also what I observe in others. B players seldom improve to championship levels
 
Jeff Rosen said:
Although I've gone to pool rooms most of my 61 years I only started playing competively (leagues & tournaments) about a year ago. Before that I only played with friends, family, or girls I were dating. So I'm not that good. I'm basically an APA "3" although people say I should be a four. I'm in 3 leagues, an APA, a Mega Bucks, and a straight pool league. In the APA and Mega Bucks I usually play people on or close to my skill level. However in my 14.1 league the majority of the players are pro or semi pro level. I really am out of my league and I really have no real business being there. But I love straight pool and want to learn.
Well last night I'm playing the second best guy in the league. They give us a very embarrassing (to me) race of 150 to 26. Well, I played bad, missing easy shots and my biggest run was 4. Twice I was on 2 fouls and close to losing 15 points. Well, I ended getting 26 when my opponent "only" had 136. He shakes my hand and says good match, good playing. I had to be honest and said "I might have won for the league standings, but you really won the match and I'm sorry you had to lose this way. What could I say? I went home feeling I lost the match!!
Click to expand...

For me, this is all that I concern myself with. I play in a couple leagues, play in tournaments, & gamble a little (not often and not much $). I'd rather play well and lose than play like crap and win. If you had played well I'm guessing you'd have a very different attitude about this, but since you didn't play well you felt, rightfully so IMO, embarrassed.
 
Handicaps

Donny Lutz said:
Without handicaps bowling leagues would never have been the great success that they were. The same for pool leagues.

Some may hate leagues and handicaps, but well over half a million people play in pool leagues in the US. Without them, pool would really be dead.

It does bother me just a tad though, that theoretically you can be a national champion in the APA without ever having actually won a single game of pool in your life...
Click to expand...

Like Donny says about bowling it is true in other sports as well.

Horse Racing, Car racing are some others.
 
I understand how the op feels. Winning with a handicap does not
really feel like winning but it is a win. Like others have posted here
if I played well I'm happy, win or lose. Maybe the op would be happier
concerning himself with how he played and less about winning or
losing with or without a handicap.

A handicap levels the win/lose field. The playing field
is never perfectly level!

Joe
 
Banks said:
Handicaps are there to make a generally even game between two different skill levels. He got close, but you did well for how you're expected to do at your level. To me, that's a personal win. People can moan all day long about the handicaps, but this isn't professional pool. If you continue to do well, the handicap gets adjusted and you have something to measure your performance against, even though in a "straight-up" game, you'd be losing. I enjoy watching my friends bust their butts to try moving up the skill ladder and they obviously enjoy it, too, or they wouldn't continue playing.



I'm a 7/9 and whether I lose to a 2/1 or 7/9, I give em the congrats and go about having a fun night. Others appreciate being treated respectfully and for those lower players, that may be the highlight of their season or more. To take that away with poor sportsmanship/attitude is just lame. Heck, it also lets them know that folks at all various levels of play can enjoy the game and not be a tool about it.



On the flip side, when I'm giving up a big spot, I've got to play well to win. To do anything less and then make some excuse about the handicap is a disservice to myself and the game. When I lose giving up a handicap, either the luck was with my opponent(happens at all levels) or they outplayed me for our respective skills.



Have fun and keep up the good work.
Click to expand...




This. Excellent post. I love playing guys like you because I'm the same way.

Don't get me wrong. I'll get a little mad if I play bad and lose. But I know I lost because I played bad. I'm not going to take it out on my opponent. They played better than I did and won because of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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