Let's Talk About the "Southwest" Roll
- Thread starter HereWeGo
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Roll
So I'm not misunderstood. I'm all for tolerances. But let's be realistic.
4 digits is just pomp. Most high end cnc lathes barely hold that. We're talking
wood or phenolic. We're talking coefficient of expansion of the epoxy.
How about us old 5/16-14 guys. Most of those are rolled threads.
As cuemakers we go to extra ordinary measures to make an A joint that runs true.
Then some slather it with epoxy and sand it round with 220. How round is it now.
Even clear coat will change things more than .000?
So pick you tolerances, but lets not blow smoke up some ones posterior.
And don't forget, this all started with a ten year old cue with an unknown number of previous owners and travel history.
So I'm not misunderstood. I'm all for tolerances. But let's be realistic.
4 digits is just pomp. Most high end cnc lathes barely hold that. We're talking
wood or phenolic. We're talking coefficient of expansion of the epoxy.
How about us old 5/16-14 guys. Most of those are rolled threads.
As cuemakers we go to extra ordinary measures to make an A joint that runs true.
Then some slather it with epoxy and sand it round with 220. How round is it now.
Even clear coat will change things more than .000?
So pick you tolerances, but lets not blow smoke up some ones posterior.
And don't forget, this all started with a ten year old cue with an unknown number of previous owners and travel history.
Steve,
So what is your tolerance?
Mine is .00025 or 1/4 thou. Sorry it upsets you that I forgot the 5 on the end.
You forgot the 6,500 psi epoxy also and the structural encapsulation within the annulus with the threads acting a keyway anchorage embedment zones. Not just a very thin glue layer between the male and female thread interface. Also I have never had one single pin failure in 166 cues. Epoxy is not just a glue it also has a structural component.
I used to repair cracks in Hydro Dams using epoxy injection techniques underwater and the Federal Government would re-certify the dams after the work was done. I suppose they would also see the strength in my method of securing a pin into wood as the parent material.
Also you might want to do some research of epoxy filled anchor bolts in concrete. Compare them to mechanical compression types.
Anyone who visits my shop and observes a pin install would verify any BS. Many cue makers visit my shop all of the time and we share ideas. Your statements are based on prejudice not facts. BTW, there are plenty of CMs that do the same thing I do to get to zero. Most don't wish to be as honest as I am.
So think what you wish and say as you will. You are surly entitled to your opinion.
JMO,
Rick
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You use some of the most elaborate words to describe your work it's comical. The word you should have use was tolerance. I'm sure TW will be back by to dissect your post again. I just can't stop laughing at your incorrect verbiage.
I don't use an indicator anymore.
I use an OPTICAL comparator.
I can't wait for the next 100% epoxy cue.
If that were your tolerance, you would have no problems boring the hole for the barrel at -.00025" and let the barrel sit snug on that hole and let the threads at the bottom hold the screw . Using an over-sized reamer is not precision machining .IT's A WORK AROUND.
Let's call spade a spade .
6500 PSI ? Why even thread the hole then. Just let the epoxy hold the screw .
ANY CUE MAKER can tell me if I'm wrong . If I'm wrong, pls. enlighten me.
I use an OPTICAL comparator.
I can't wait for the next 100% epoxy cue.
That's not your tolerance . That's the TIR of your screw's pilot after you manipulate it on the over-sized hole. NOT MACHINED. Manipulated.
If that were your tolerance, you would have no problems boring the hole for the barrel at -.00025" and let the barrel sit snug on that hole and let the threads at the bottom hold the screw . Using an over-sized reamer is not precision machining .IT's A WORK AROUND.
Let's call spade a spade .
6500 PSI ? Why even thread the hole then. Just let the epoxy hold the screw .
ANY CUE MAKER can tell me if I'm wrong . If I'm wrong, pls. enlighten me.
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Ill get some more popcorn and a fresh glass of ice tea......
I don't use an indicator anymore.
I use an OPTICAL comparator.
I can't wait for the next 100% epoxy cue.
That's not your tolerance . That's the indicated TIR of your screw's pilot after you manipulate it on the over-sized hole. NOT MACHINED. Manipulated.
If that were your tolerance, you would have no problems boring the hole for the barrel at -.00025" and let the barrel sit snug on that hole and let the threads at the bottom hold the screw . Using an over-sized reamer is not precision machining .IT's A WORK AROUND.
Let's call spade a spade .
6500 PSI ? Why even thread the hole then. Just let the epoxy hold the screw .
ANY CUE MAKER can tell me if I'm wrong . If I'm wrong, pls. enlighten me.
and this very point, will point back to TW's point a few posts back. If the pilot is indicated at .00025 and the pin is manipulated "at its pilot end" then it is actually angular to the cues axis. Now put this cue between centers and indicate the actual joint od or joint face. The TIR of what was once .00025 will now be compounded. Result = not concentric as minor as it may be.
Is there even an import lathe that has a spindle that runs within .00025? I'm not sure i could on my best day measure anything to that kind of tolerance. If my pin runs within a thou "or even slightly worse" i'm happy happy.
I'm sorry, but this time it's you who needs correction.
Rick doesn't "use" elaborate words, he misuses them. "Use" suggests he employs those words correctly, which he almost never does.
Between his unintentional verbal errors and the seemingly dozens of careers he claims to have had (and skills he claims to have mastered) I think we all know he's not only become a running joke he's also his own punchline.
TW
Sw
Jake hit it on the head. I didn't start to bash you method, just your drummed up
tolerances. Let's talk some real world numbers a 190.00 bison live center holds
+/- .0001 an import +/- .0003. As I stated how do you know that your import indicator is really moving .00025 When's the last time you centered your tailstock.
Are you using a fixed or floating reamer holder. Most ground steel blanks don't hold the BS tolerances you claim. I don't give a rats ass( sorry Ryan) how you do it.
But don't put out self serving info on a forum that newbies come for info.
When I do rolled 5/16-14 pins that come with no flats and no center.
+/- .002 . at the tip.
As for the original self server. I don't think you have done enough cues and haven't had them in play long enough to make statements about your cues quality.
Jake hit it on the head. I didn't start to bash you method, just your drummed up
tolerances. Let's talk some real world numbers a 190.00 bison live center holds
+/- .0001 an import +/- .0003. As I stated how do you know that your import indicator is really moving .00025 When's the last time you centered your tailstock.
Are you using a fixed or floating reamer holder. Most ground steel blanks don't hold the BS tolerances you claim. I don't give a rats ass( sorry Ryan) how you do it.
But don't put out self serving info on a forum that newbies come for info.
When I do rolled 5/16-14 pins that come with no flats and no center.
+/- .002 . at the tip.
As for the original self server. I don't think you have done enough cues and haven't had them in play long enough to make statements about your cues quality.
As we all know, RIck's claims are ridiculous on their face. But let's imagine for a moment that he actually could install a pin into a cue to a concentricity he probably can't measure (0.00025"). What possible good would that do unless the hole in the shaft ALSO meets that tolerance? if the pin runs true within 0.00025" tir then it logically follows that his insert threads must also carry that concentricity - otherwise what could possibly be the point of getting the pin so perfect?
And therein lies the rub (or rubs the lie, if you prefer). Those kind of close tolerances simply don't work for a pool cue.
Paul Costain invented the Uni-Loc pin (and insert), and his first sets held the tightest tolerances in the billiard industry (remember, his machine shop business was built on making parts for NASA, and he could hold tolerances measured in the microns). So what happened with his first Uni-Loc sets is they would jam up and become impossible [literally] to separate. Many an unhappy customer attempted to take his cue apart and would unscrew the joint pin out of the butt instead.
There's no question that Costain, with his million-dollar Swiss lathes, could hold tolerances that Rick can only dream of lying about. But if you measure his various cue joint products today you will find tolerances that can be detected with a digital caliper. Costain learned what everyone here (except Rick) has learned, and that is the face alignments of the butt and the shaft trump all.
TW
Seriously now, My six jaw today indicates .0002 on a .375 dowel pin without banging the jaws.
When I put a cue in a tapered collet I have to shim the high side of my collet to get the cue running true. Without getting the cue running at zero you have no chance of getting the pin right. While shimming the collet I bang the high side jaw with a rubber hammer and I can get the cue on zero or the line of the .0005 indicator it just wiggles on the line a hair.
Now when you do the pin hole, I use a chucking reamer on the .312 minor to .325 and ream the .750 barrel hole length to .3775 from the .372 barrel hole. Boring to .372 is a size on size body fit. No go. So the way I see it is that everybody has got to make that hole bigger anyway. I settled on .3775 as my Goldielocks size. So a hair over .002 per side is what I use with the repeatability of a reamer that follows the bore hole. Now someone else who bores his hole must also go over the barrel size and is relying on measuring that hole size.
And guess what, I bet there are some that are making that hole bigger than I do. Unless you have go / no go gauging measuring a small hole like that is pretty damn difficult even for the best dimensional metrologist.
So when the hole is concentric and slightly oversize it gives you the ability to move the pin a hair to indicate zero or in my case 1/4 thou to zero as the tolerance standard. If I don't do it this way, if the pin is .001 off, I can't push the pin because any push only deflects the nose of the forearm. It will spring back.
Joey Gold has a Hardinge collet chuck on his lathe a he hits zero all the time. If you aspire to get to this type of standard you must get a tool room lathe type set up. You can only go so far on a lathe and shimming the outside of a tapered Delrin collet.
After seeing this I bought a Hardinge lathe with as 5c collet closer and I have precision made brass collets that are tapered. One is for my butt and one is for the reverse taper on the shaft. I will have it up a running soon and I am excited as hell to tweek my process to an even higher standard.
My machinist buddy will be setting up my lathe next week and I am aiming for Zero that is repeatable. If you don't think that is possible visit Joey's shop and watch the master at work. Joel Hercek is also one that can hold these type of tolerances.
IMO the joint pin install and shaft threading geometries is the most important and significant operation in the cue building process. You must aim to grab the highest apple on the tree the way I see it.
I am in no way a machinist and will never aspire to be at a pro level in this discipline. I am a person who uses machines to build my cues. I do however seek out advise from someone who is an over the top professional to help me understand how to optimize the operations that I use to build by cues.
JMO,
Rick
When I put a cue in a tapered collet I have to shim the high side of my collet to get the cue running true. Without getting the cue running at zero you have no chance of getting the pin right. While shimming the collet I bang the high side jaw with a rubber hammer and I can get the cue on zero or the line of the .0005 indicator it just wiggles on the line a hair.
Now when you do the pin hole, I use a chucking reamer on the .312 minor to .325 and ream the .750 barrel hole length to .3775 from the .372 barrel hole. Boring to .372 is a size on size body fit. No go. So the way I see it is that everybody has got to make that hole bigger anyway. I settled on .3775 as my Goldielocks size. So a hair over .002 per side is what I use with the repeatability of a reamer that follows the bore hole. Now someone else who bores his hole must also go over the barrel size and is relying on measuring that hole size.
And guess what, I bet there are some that are making that hole bigger than I do. Unless you have go / no go gauging measuring a small hole like that is pretty damn difficult even for the best dimensional metrologist.
So when the hole is concentric and slightly oversize it gives you the ability to move the pin a hair to indicate zero or in my case 1/4 thou to zero as the tolerance standard. If I don't do it this way, if the pin is .001 off, I can't push the pin because any push only deflects the nose of the forearm. It will spring back.
Joey Gold has a Hardinge collet chuck on his lathe a he hits zero all the time. If you aspire to get to this type of standard you must get a tool room lathe type set up. You can only go so far on a lathe and shimming the outside of a tapered Delrin collet.
After seeing this I bought a Hardinge lathe with as 5c collet closer and I have precision made brass collets that are tapered. One is for my butt and one is for the reverse taper on the shaft. I will have it up a running soon and I am excited as hell to tweek my process to an even higher standard.
My machinist buddy will be setting up my lathe next week and I am aiming for Zero that is repeatable. If you don't think that is possible visit Joey's shop and watch the master at work. Joel Hercek is also one that can hold these type of tolerances.
IMO the joint pin install and shaft threading geometries is the most important and significant operation in the cue building process. You must aim to grab the highest apple on the tree the way I see it.
I am in no way a machinist and will never aspire to be at a pro level in this discipline. I am a person who uses machines to build my cues. I do however seek out advise from someone who is an over the top professional to help me understand how to optimize the operations that I use to build by cues.
JMO,
Rick
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Of coarse the face alignment trumps all. Your right!
If you indicate your cue to Zero and cut your face that is as good as it can be faced.
My concentricity pin drive keeps my face perpendicular to the centerline of the threaded insert on the shaft. The 90 degree face and tapering process is based on the centerline of that female thread.
Rick
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That would make your tolerance at .005"+. NOT .00025".
A .3775 reamer does not ream a .3775" hole unless your tail stock and chuck are dead nuts. If that reamer is reaming .3775" hole, why bother with .3775" ??? Ream it at .372" and you'd be set .
Everybody does not need to make that hole bigger . What are you talking about ? That's what the barrel hole is for .
SW's joint screw is not even barreled . It's all thread .
Joey,
.00025 is the pin run out indicated not the differential between the bore and reamed hole of the pin barrel.
Size on size is no go. It has to be a little bigger. Without a ground hole gauge it is pretty hard to hit a bore size when measuring the hole. I guess most must skim cut the bore and test the pin if it don't fit just skim a little more till it goes. In that case the operator would not know the exact size of the hole. He would only know the hole was larger than barrel because it went in. I know my size! .3775
When you bore the hole how do you measure the hole size during the boring process.
Rick
Click on small pic to see video.
Joe, here is a pin that is at about .0003 while the epoxy is setting. I will tweak the pin to within my tolerance when I install the pin set gizmo and it will not move during the full chemical set period and I can also remove the cue from the lathe to the rack if I wish. I usually let it stay in the lathe overnight and check it again in the morning. But is pretty much failsafe after 30 minutes with the device in place. There is no canting of my pins.
After the epoxy is setting for about 20 minutes and it starting to firm up a bit, I clean the pin with alcohol and install the pin set gizmo and it holds the pin perfectly in place with the slightest of facing pressure. The next morning it is exactly where i left it.
For those who look for something to pick at, I do usually hold the joint closer to the chuck but this guy want a thinner cue like a DPK and I just used my standard tapered collet. I turned out just fine.
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RBC
Deceased
Rick
A couple of questions.
First, do you know that scroll chucks, although they can be dialed in to pretty low runout, are not accurate over the range of the scroll? Meaning, that if you dial it in on that .375" ground dowel, it likely won't read the same if you chuck down on a .750" ground dowel.
Second, you do realize that most 5c collets aren't rated with as tight of tolerances that you seem to feel like you're getting now. Couple that with bearing runout, spindle runout, and the amplification of those compounded inaccuracies when they are extended out from the collet face, and I don't think your new special collet lathe will get you to those same numbers that you believe you're getting now.
You might be better off keeping your 6 jaw chuck.
By the way, I am familiar with collet lathes. I have 2 5c lathes, one is a Hardinge and the other is a Feeler, and 1 16c Hardinge Super Precision. The 16C machine is a beast! It will reverse the spindle in less than a second, at 4000 RPM. On this machine, I can MPG increments of .00001". But that doesn't mean I can cut that accurate.
Good luck and happy cue building!
Royce
Thanks Royce,
I do know that different diameters give different answers.
I am new to Hardinge lathes but am going to try the brass tapered collets that were taper machined on a CNC lathe to match my butt and shaft tapers at the size I install my pin and thread my shafts.. My friend machined two tapered Delrin collets that fit in the spindle bore on the back and they have an o ring groove on the OD so I can hold the cue towards the back of the handle securely. Same thing with the shaft.
I will let you know how this set up works when it is all dialed in.
There will be a learning curve here for me for sure. Crossing my fingers.
Thanks again, I do appreciate your thoughts and suggestions,
Rick
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warped period just like any other cue but its south west ooooooooooo it cant be ..snap the hell out that dream....its a warped south west if it was a kc cue you would call it junk..so what do you call that?O YEAH the (southwest roll)
Jake,
I have seen repeatable zero in a cue shop.
I want to save time and all the effort chucking up tools in my tail stock. I want to use the turret to do six operations. Also I can set the exact depth for the center drill, reamer ect. I am using new Jacobs super chucks now that dedicated to the pin ops only.
If my brass collets are perfectly concentric and tapered correctly I am thinking it should work with repeatability and I won't have to shim my tapered Delrin collets any more in my six jaw. If getting to zero is not possible and I can hold a 1/4 thou then I won't complain too much.
Royce said I may be better off with my current lathe and chuck but I don't understand why the Hardinge can't put a perfect center drill or reamer ect. tools right on the Money. Every thing is adjustable and can be measured.
The only other thing is using a HSS tool to do the facing.
All of those chucking things take quite a bit of time. If I can get accuracy and repeatability, I sure am going to try my best effort to achieve that.
I will soon find out. I can tell you this, it ain't going to be me who sets this machine up.
Rick
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RBC
Deceased
Jake,
I have seen repeatable zero in a cue shop.
I want to save time and all the effort chucking up tools in my tail stock. I want to use the turret to do six operations. Also I can set the exact depth for the center drill, reamer ect. I am using new Jacobs super chucks now that dedicated to the pin ops only.
If my brass collets are perfectly concentric and tapered correctly I am thinking it should work with repeatability and I won't have to shim my tapered Delrin collets any more in my six jaw. If getting to zero is not possible and I can hold a 1/4 thou then I won't complain too much.
Royce said I may be better off with my current lathe and chuck but I don't understand why the Hardinge can't put a perfect center drill or reamer ect. tools right on the x and z perfectly. Every thing is adjustable and can be measured.
The only other thing is using a HSS tool to do the facing.
All of those chucking things take quite a bit of time. If I can get accuracy and repeatability, I sure am going to try my best effort to achieve that.
I will soon find out. I can tell you this, it ain't going to be me who sets this machine up.
Rick
Rick
Very very high quality machine spindles claim runout numbers of .00005". Most of the collet manufacturers advertise numbers like .0007". Combining those two numbers could give a possible error of .00075", which is already 3 times the numbers you claim.
Now, if the collet manufacturers, who have state of the art equipment, can't offer any better tolerances than .0007", then how do you propose to beat that in a typical machine shop environment? Specifically considering the taper variable you're adding to the equation.
Now, as to the numbers.
The funny thing is, I don't believe that I have the equipment or the place necessary to "Accurately" measure to the numbers you talk about. At least not to be able to do it well enough that I would claim it. I'm sure that you believe you're getting those numbers. And, who knows, maybe you are. But, knowing how hard it is to accurately measure to that level, the odds that your methods are giving you accurate results probably aren't in your favor.
Good luck, and happy cue building!
Royce