Let's Talk About the "Southwest" Roll

Thomas Wayne said:



Hmm. I guess you want a fight. No problem.

Overlooking your cheap shots for the moment, I'll repeat my earlier question so we can watch you duck it again. First, this is EXACTLY what you wrote:



So I ask again, how is your statement NOT 100% self-serving? You call my question an "erroneous assumption" - but glaringly fail to answer it.

TW
(PS: When someone else repeats that same very reasonable question they probably also are also trying to understand your twisted logic. Calling that "parroting" is simply a weak attempt to deflect the real point - a challenge to your claim of being a better (and cheaper) cuemaker than Southwest.)
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No I don't want a fight...... but it seems that you are always looking for one.


I will restate my original post with some elaborations............

I see the same behavior in a lot of very successful businesses. It's like when the Beetles became famous with some fantastic songs. Well after a few years, they put out some horrible songs but they went over big simply because they were sung by the Beetles... if they had sung those songs when they were starting out they might have flopped.....

I only stated that I cannot afford to put out a cue that has a roll in the butt because I am not a big name. If I did that early on, my business would not succeed.

I was referring to the tact that there are a number of SW cues that have a roll in the butt and that they get away with it because they are famous. I am not taking anything away from them.... I am happy for them for their success. Only that I cannot afford to build cues that way......... and that perhaps a change in construction methods would correct that situation.

If you take that as self serving........... you are welcome to your opinion and your big fonts.....

Please don't twist what I say to become fodder for your mean and confrontational attitude.

have a nice day

Kim

Kim
 
While I do agree with what you said thomas, tho for the typical pool player....the joint on the rail method is probably the best option they have.

Not every place has a house cue man much less a cue maker. :(

So without the lathe its the best option for checking if the tip is centered with the center of the butt.
 
greyghost said:
While I do agree with what you said thomas, tho for the typical pool player....the joint on the rail method is probably the best option they have.

Not every place has a house cue man much less a cue maker. :(

So without the lathe its the best option for checking if the tip is centered with the center of the butt.
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In regards to warped cues, I have never heard of a cue leaving SW shop not being straight. What happens after it gets to the customer can not always be faulted on a cuemaker. The OP is talking about a cue thats 10 years old. In 10 years (and it doesn't matter if someone spent thousands of dollars on it) the owner could have left it in the heat, cold etc. Dont believe for one second that just because someone spends a great deal of money and wait time on something that they are automatically going to take the utmost care of their possessions.

Also in regards to a "sw" roll or taper roll or whatever one wants to call it.....these types of "warpage" have never caused a player to miss a shot in the history of the game. The tip goes to the point on the cb that you want it to go when you aim the cue, no type of warp is going to change that.
 
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whammo57 said:
No I don't want a fight...... but it seems that you are always looking for one.


I will restate my original post with some elaborations............

I see the same behavior in a lot of very successful businesses. It's like when the Beetles became famous with some fantastic songs. Well after a few years, they put out some horrible songs but they went over big simply because they were sung by the Beetles... if they had sung those songs when they were starting out they might have flopped.....

I only stated that I cannot afford to put out a cue that has a roll in the butt because I am not a big name. If I did that early on, my business would not succeed.

I was referring to the tact that there are a number of SW cues that have a roll in the butt and that they get away with it because they are famous. I am not taking anything away from them.... I am happy for them for their success. Only that I cannot afford to build cues that way......... and that perhaps a change in construction methods would correct that situation.

If you take that as self serving........... you are welcome to your opinion and your big fonts.....

Please don't twist what I say to become fodder for your mean and confrontational attitude.

have a nice day

Kim

Kim
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Maybe you are unaware, but there are lots of high end cue collectors out there. Big names, Szamboti, Balabushka, Joss West, Gina and a few others. Do you have any idea how many of those cues have warped forearms? I don't know how many people I've talked to recently that say that they know of $5,000+ cues by every big name maker out there that has warped. Why don't you go *****ing to them? Or how about all those ivory handle cues that the ivory has cracked on.

You see a very small view of he big picture and think you know. How absurd. You lost all credibility with me when you said you couldn't comprehend how a 3/8" tapped ferrule could have more meat than a 3/8" through hole ferrule. You think SouthWest cues are he only maker to have their cues warp once their in the wild? How shallow minded you are.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
Maybe you are unaware, but there are lots of high end cue collectors out there. Big names, Szamboti, Balabushka, Joss West, Gina and a few others. Do you have any idea how many of those cues have warped forearms? I don't know how many people I've talked to recently that say that they know of $5,000+ cues by every big name maker out there that has warped. Why don't you go *****ing to them? Or how about all those ivory handle cues that the ivory has cracked on.

You see a very small view of he big picture and think you know. How absurd. You lost all credibility with me when you said you couldn't comprehend how a 3/8" tapped ferrule could have more meat than a 3/8" through hole ferrule. You think SouthWest cues are he only maker to have their cues warp once their in the wild? How shallow minded you are.
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Well I guess you have shown your colors........ do you and TW eat the same nasty pills?????

Can't you discuss an issue with out resorting to attacking someone and calling them names???

Kim
 
What started out as an informative discussion has suddenly made a hard left for the dumpster.
What's up folks???
 
whammo57 said:
Well I guess you have shown your colors........ do you and TW eat the same nasty pills?????

Can't you discuss an issue with out resorting to attacking someone and calling them names???

Kim
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Well if people could keep their nasty comments to themselves to start, this discussion wouldn't escalate the way it did. You want to drag SouthWest Cues under the bus for having a few cues roll suspiciously? Well there are bigger name makers out there that put out more cues that warp then SW and other makers combined. It's your shortsightedness that makes you attack SW Cues. If this now about a way to check proper straightness of a cue, leave manufacturers out of the equation.

What is this discussion about now? Checking a cues straightness or bashing SW?
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
What is this discussion about now? Checking a cues straightness or bashing SW?
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The OPs thread title begs that question. He did not have to disclose the maker.

Concerning the OPs description of his cue:

If a line was run through the pin center down the X axis to the center of the butt it would not be a straight. The cue describe by the OP is would be paralell with the taper contour. Add a shaft with run out or a taper roll, you get concentricity chaos when it is joined together.

A behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.

People reface cues that roll funny. By changing the facing orientation of cue butt to the shaft it can work to make a tip bob stay on the table when the cue is rolled on the flat surface. Also refacing to clean up debris on face and make things right. It does not fix a warped cue or shaft.

JMO,

Rick
 
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The tip also shows no roll-out when the cue is together
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Ok, plug ( dry ) up the 5/8 hole for the bumper's stem at the bottom.
Indicate the butt plate and center drill that plug.
Now, check the butt for wobble between centers .
 
whammo57 said:
[...]
Please don't twist what I say to become fodder for your mean and confrontational attitude.
[...]
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I'm "confronting" you because you're a liar. The only one twisting anything is you. For the third time I'll quote you (EXACT QUOTE):

Originally Posted by whammo57
It may acceptable in a $2500 south west cue that you waited 9 years for but is is not acceptable in any cues that I build...............for a lot less..............."
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That was your exact statement, in its own stand-alone paragraph, with no other qualifiers. Posted as it was it can only be interpreted as, "Southwest cues may warp and they don't care, but my cues don't warp. My cues are also a better value because they cost less." Your "elaborations" have only come later, as you waffle along trying to claim the statement was NOT self-serving.

Of course it was. The funny thing is, there's nothing wrong with that - lots of manufacturers use self-serving boasts to promote themselves and their products. But you're don't want to admit the comment was self-serving, so you'd rather lie about it instead.

TW
(PS: You keep bringing up my use of "large fonts" as if it's some sort of logical retort. It's not; it's simply stupidity on your part. I use a larger font size because my shop monitor is small and it allows me to proofread what I've written from a comfortable distance. However, I guess it bothers you and I just have to say I'm pleased to know that it does.)


 
TW.... just keep regurgitating my words in a different way each time with a little of your own twist.....

You have a nasty disposition ........


I do not....


I speak my mind


I will not trade words with you further........


I will leave you to your own disposition.............

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
TW.... just keep regurgitating my words in a different way each time with a little of your own twist.....
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I haven't twisted your words OR regurgitated them "in a different way" at all. Each time I've quoted them EXACTLY as you wrote them. You're simply too chickenshit to own them.

whammo57 said:
You have a nasty disposition ........
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Yeah, sometimes. Especially when someone tries to piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining.

whammo57 said:
I do not....


I speak my mind


I will not trade words with you further........


I will leave you to your own disposition.............

Kim
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Probably a good idea. In a battle of the wits you're clearly unarmed. Run, Forest, run!

TW

 
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For the original poster;

There is a good chance from your description that the joint pin is slightly misaligned. I've seen this more times that you can imagine. if this is the case then when the butt is "between centers" - that is, with the buttcap in the chuck and the pin running in the tailstock - the pin may appear to be running true while the joint will not. This seems to be what you've described.

The fix is to run the buttcap at the tailstock end and grab the joint pin pilot in a 4-jaw chuck. Now dial in the chuck until the outside of the joint runs dead true. After checking to make sure the buttcap is also running true, use a left-handed tool to take a very light facing cut on the joint.

Even with a slightly "crooked" joint pin if the faces of the joint are truly perpendicular to 1) the centerline running between the joint and the buttcap AND 2) the centerline running through the shaft joint and the ferrule/tip, then the assembled cue should spin as straight as is possible for whatever taper or slight warp may be present (assuming the two halves are screwed tightly together).

TW
 
Who as makers would ship the cue originally? I mean is this within QA standards? Lets say only voice if within standards to make simple..
 
Thomas Wayne said:
For the original poster;

There is a good chance from your description that the joint pin is slightly misaligned. I've seen this more times that you can imagine. if this is the case then when the butt is "between centers" - that is, with the buttcap in the chuck and the pin running in the tailstock - the pin may appear to be running true while the joint will not. This seems to be what you've described.

The fix is to run the buttcap at the tailstock end and grab the joint pin pilot in a 4-jaw chuck. Now dial in the chuck until the outside of the joint runs dead true. After checking to make sure the buttcap is also running true, use a left-handed tool to take a very light facing cut on the joint.

Even with a slightly "crooked" joint pin if the faces of the joint are truly perpendicular to 1) the centerline running between the joint and the buttcap AND 2) the centerline running through the shaft joint and the ferrule/tip, then the assembled cue should spin as straight as is possible for whatever taper or slight warp may be present (assuming the two halves are screwed tightly together).

TW
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Does this mean that it is unwise to use an undersize tap?
 
whammo57 said:
Can't you discuss an issue with out resorting to attacking someone and calling them names???

Kim
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In all fairness, I believe that you were the first person to present an "attack" statement in regards to my ego without knowing any of the facts in regards to the acquisition of this cue.

whammo57 said:
It's warped........ trying to lessen the blow to your ego by calling it something else does not help............

It may acceptable in a $2500 south west cue that you waited 9 years for but is is not acceptable in any cues that I build...............for a lot less...............

Kim
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I would like to thank everyone that has provided their thoughts and opinions to my questions. Along with the negativity there has been some very helpful and interesting information provided.
 
shankster8 said:
Does this mean that it is unwise to use an undersize tap?
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In the late 80's another cuemaker (well known at the time) and I did some experiments with that very concept. While not the core purpose of the study, we discovered that even with very tight tolerances between a stainless bolt and a brass insert you can easily throw the butt/shaft alignment WAY out by simply having some sort of "wedge" in one side of the joint as it is screwed together.

The thinnest "wedge" we tried was a crisp new dollar bill, pinching it near the outer perimeter on one side of the cue. Even firmly screwed down - with a squeeky-tight fit bewteen the bolt and the insert - the tip of the shaft skewed to one side almost 3/16 of an inch. Rolled on a table that would amount to a wobble of almost 3/8"(!) The tight tolerance joint was simply incapable of overcoming the lack of parallel joint faces.

With that experiment (and others) we drew the conclusion that a very tight joint bolt fit did not guarantee butt/shaft alignment. Only clean, properly faced off joint surfaces can do that.

One of the other things we learned was that an extra-tight tolerance bolt/insert fit makes for a VERY noisy hit - but that's a different lesson.

TW
 
phil dade said:
Who as makers would ship the cue originally? I mean is this within QA standards? Lets say only voice if within standards to make simple..
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It is all about standards.

There is no excuse for a pin to be misaligned. I don't agree with the so called standard that a pin must indicate within .001. I want it at zero zero but I do accept .0002.

If the A Joint wobbles the cue is bad.

JMO,

Rick
 
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scdiveteam said:
It is all about standards.

There is no excuse for a pin to be misaligned. I don't agree with the so called standard that a pin must indicate within .001. I want it at zero zero but I do accept .0002.

If the A Joint wobbles the cue is bad.

JMO,

Rick
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This from the inventor of the over reamed hole and chrome plated pin.
I love the .0002 standard from a cheap uncalibrated indicator.
Hey what happened to the .00025 from your last joint pin saga.
Let's hold the BS tolerances from post to post
 
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