Maybe consider one of these :
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-granite/surface-plates/crystal-pink
Dave
Let's Talk About the "Southwest" Roll
- Thread starter HereWeGo
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Maybe consider one of these :
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-granite/surface-plates/crystal-pink
Dave
Has the movie ended?
Has the movie ended?
There could be an after credits scene....
Here's the thing, I don't need to post a video. I don't need to for one reason only; I never made claims about my work that are untrue. You claim you can get accurate readings that are 5x more accurate than what your lathe supports. Do you have no end to the absurdity you will go to? If you believe that you need more accuracy than .001 when working with wood, you've chosen the wrong profession.
Like TW said earlier, the facing of the joint is more impactful on straightness of the assembled parts than is the straightness of the installed pin. Yes of course you still want the pin to be as straight as possible so there isn't any undue stress on the threads. But it still hammers home the point that the force of screwing the two parts together, the only thing that wants to be straight are the facings. So the strength of the screw thread overcomes the strength of the wood. So no matter how accurate you machined your pin, the force to bend it out of alignment is quite weak.
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Pin and facing
First time I saw a pin being installed; hole was drilled, a careful measure of west epoxy was introduced in to the hole, pin place in opening and banged with mallet home. No relief channels or holes just hydraulics
no wonder he measure so carefully the epoxy.
Well as the years when by I watched this individual spent lots of time manually re-facing. He did get his share of straight pins, most joints needed that manual touch.
I ask this guy once, what does a boring bar do? "I can't remember" he said. Of course I could understand that answer since there was none of that fancy gadgetry in his shop. I would bet he is still doing it his way. So it goes!
Mario
First time I saw a pin being installed; hole was drilled, a careful measure of west epoxy was introduced in to the hole, pin place in opening and banged with mallet home. No relief channels or holes just hydraulics
no wonder he measure so carefully the epoxy.Well as the years when by I watched this individual spent lots of time manually re-facing. He did get his share of straight pins, most joints needed that manual touch.
I ask this guy once, what does a boring bar do? "I can't remember" he said. Of course I could understand that answer since there was none of that fancy gadgetry in his shop. I would bet he is still doing it his way. So it goes!
Mario
H em H,
Many things you have stated here have merit and I agree with.
Did you think I did not understand something so fundemental as the two faces
having to be spot on and TW's comment was something I had to learn? Sorry not
me but there are people on this forum that are finding their way and to them
this information may make them start to indicate every face in the future. A
good thing.
With a dialed in buck chuck, accurate shimmed tapered collet and .0005 mag dial
indicator, anyone can get their butt nose running at zero or just a slight
wiggle ( < .0001 ) on the line with a littlle patience. Traming in your tail
stock up/down and in/out using a hardened Thomson rod with true centers is not a
rocket science skill set.
Or do you think that is BS too?
Everyone has their way of getting their sailboat across the finish line. There
are a thousand decisions a skipper has to make during a competition. Cue making
also requires a lot of predetermined methods to get each cue to a finished
state.
I have shared my way here with total honesty and no one has to change their way
nor is it my desire for them to do so. I profess something I do here on the
forum, all anyone had to do is reject the notion. Calling names or getting
personal makes no sense to me.
I am someone who has developed personal skill set experiences in virtually every
trade over 30 years as a professional which gives me a very unique perspective. So my bringing
this unique or different perspective to my cue making gives me an opportunity to
draw on the thousands of different projects and mechanical work request problem solving
tasks I have performed successfully in different situations. All under the
scrutiny of very strict engineering and QA QC Oversight with my many certifications and documented
training and specific re training requirements.
I can perform every operation in my cue making procedure by the seat of my pants from memory. That being said, I still
hang a detailed laminated drawing of critical machining details in front of my face during execution of these features. Why,
because they are critical and require a HLA or a Heightened Level of Awareness.
I want to raise the bar of expectations in every detail of cue making. Is that so wrong to try for zero
TRO instead of saying .001 is ok as long as the faces are good.
TW mistaking my sharing of information here as boast-full is 180 degrees from
reality. My entire adult professional life was based on peer check and review.
I have tried for many years to bring this culture to our open forum.
You only develop by learning from mistakes wether it is your's or some one else's.
When mistakes or negative out comes happen, a root cause must be uncovered,
then corrective action plan must be implemented after a double blind testing is verified.
The out come is the lessons learned. That is my approach to everything I do in life because
of the world class training principals I have had the good fortune to have been exposed to
and have embraced as a cultural orientation process. It applies to cue making methodology
and development of procedural protocols very nicely.
Anyone who knows me understands that I am not a Boastfull person as described by
TW as he has made many judgment calls concering me that has no basis other than
a quick judgment from some words on a Internet forum. That's ok, everyone has a
different personality and brings their own opinion to these forums. I am cool
with it because as I said I am only seeking to expand my personal knowledge incrementally
no matter how small of a detail that is being discussed. I am a futurist and an
objectivist who is analytical and bases outcome observations using Aristotelian logic.
I don't aways succeed but always try my best not to let metaphysical thoughts invade or prevail in any way.
Popcorn or not, I learn a great deal of info about my fellow CMs and their
methods here. I reject things I don't like and I add some things to my methods
if I find them to be credible. I try not to critique someone else's stuff if i don't
agree and try to keep the discussion from being too personal. At times I fail also
in the heat of the moment but I am working on that.
JMO,
Rick
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Rick said
"Traming in your tail stock up/down and in/out using a hardened Thomson rod with true centers is not a rocket science skill set.
Or do you think that is BS too?"
Well yes I do. Thompson's own specs are .001 straightness per foot.
So now you can get you tailstock within .001 maybe
Let's not forget that tramming is only good for that location. How straight and flat is the lathe bed. So you don't really know what you got.
Almost forgot runout of tailstock quill.
"Traming in your tail stock up/down and in/out using a hardened Thomson rod with true centers is not a rocket science skill set.
Or do you think that is BS too?"
Well yes I do. Thompson's own specs are .001 straightness per foot.
So now you can get you tailstock within .001 maybe
Let's not forget that tramming is only good for that location. How straight and flat is the lathe bed. So you don't really know what you got.
Almost forgot runout of tailstock quill.
RBC
Deceased
Steve
Don't forget to add to that the parallelism of that very same tails stock quill. Both up and down and side to side. You wouldn't want your numbers to move just because you extended the tail stock another .250".
Another thing to thing about is exactly how accurate is the center hole in that Thompson rod? I don't recall buying any precision ground rod with centers already in them, so if they were drilled on that same machine, but before all the tail stock tramming exercise, then just how accurate are they? Don't get me wrong, I'd expect them to within a thousandth or two, but were talking far less than that.
Royce
Except in the case that has been argued for a long time already, you're not raising the bar. YOU'RE LOWERING IT. You can't bore a straight hole for locating barrel, so you work around it and call it more accurate.
This peer must be wrong b/c you keep arguing against them.
More popcorn and Keyser Soze has not been revealed yet.
Steve,
Mine rod is not a Thomson by brand and is .0002 per foot and the centers were installed on a tool room lathe in a professional machine shop. I did not just chuck it up and set two centers in my shop!
When I cut my wrap groove I don't hold the handle in the chuck and live center when stepping the groove edge. I put the cue between the centers and my step elevations are spot on concentric. So when my tail stock is holding a 10" chucking reamer in that bed location, the deflection of the reamers length allows it to follow the bored hole pretty darn close. But what do I care, I seek a little oversize to accommodate for any compounded or cumulative variables anyway. That is one of the reasons I went with .3775 over a .372 pin barrel specifically after experimenting with different sizes. It works very well for me. Not to small, not to big but just right like Goldilock's chair.
Boring a hole has little to do with the tail stock or bed.
All these things you state are true Steve for anyone's equipment and is the exact reason I make my hole slightly oversize so I can accommodate for the errors that are inherent with any system. Indicating a pin that is held in a chuck with the cue zeroed within a shimmed tapered collet has little to do with a slightly aberrant bed ways or tailstock tolerances.
I can manipulate up and down, side to side and subject out ward tension on the pin during the epoxy cure preventing any canting of the pin. Or is that just impossible??
Calibration of equipment and measuring devices to a national standards periodically is critical when machining Jesus Pins for a helicopter rotors or gland plates for a Nuclear Steam Pump but in cue making if you shoot for the sun some times you hit it but if you don't you are still going to be under .0003, IMO.
If you are flying in Zero Zero conditions only the fool distrusts his instruments and relies on his senses. They are the ones that become the smoking holes. You have to do the best with what you have and try to be as resourceful as you can the way I see it.
JMO,
Rick
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I'll be honest, I didn't read a single thing after this. Do you understand what professional means? It does not mean 3 years of work in a trade makes you a professional like you assume it does. It applies to people who have been doing the same thing for 20+ years. I'm sorry but I'm not longer going to participate in your shit show Rick. You can continue writing essays to justify your processes, but you fail to realize one thing. Multiple cue makers who have earned their place in the industry are telling you that you're full of hot air. You're basically pissing off the industry that you're now trying to call your craft. You've assumed the title of a professional already, but if this thread and your last joint pin thread discussions show people anything. It's that you're completely off base in your attitude, your responses, and you are flat out lying in some cases.
Here's a hint for you, even if you get something to spin perfectly straight in a lathe. As soon as you put the tool against stock, and apply load to the motor/bearings, that's when you get run out.
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Rick, In all sincerity. I have been working as a prototype Machinist for 15 years now and have some knowledge of working with precise tolerances. Having said that I recommend you stop making claims of working in the 0.0001". Just because you push your pin around until your dial needle sits still doesn't mean that your pin is running true in the 0.0001" realm. There is no need to work in those kind of tolerances even if you could..so why even make those claims? In order for your claim to be accurate not only would your dial indicator have to be accurate but so would all the rest of your variables, The pin would have to be machined to those tolerances, the spindle you are rotating the parts in and so on. The pin would also have to run true it's entire length, not just in the spot you put your indicator on. Oh and lets not forget that it is still relative to the cue you have chucked in the lathe which also has to be running true to the same precision over it's entire length.
H em H,
I am surprised you have stayed this long with your bantering. There is absolutely no merit in any of your points. None, only wild speculation. I agree and would defend anyone who wishes to disagree with me or my methods but it is foolish to get so wound up. I am also sorry if I make you feel upset or where it is you coming from.
Talking about tool push off and loading bearings is a fundamental thought that does not need to be brought up. Yes and most stop signs are red too! When I turn my cue it is on a dedicated saw machine with a very sharp 80 tooth blade with a minimal push off and the concentricity through the whole thing is where it should be. You and others seem to believe that someone can not chuck up a cue in a tapered collet, shim that in the chuck and indicate zero on a Juma Collar. I can and do it most of the time but have admitted that sometimes I get a slight wiggle on the line of the indicator.
Your arguments are very pessimistic and you judgments have no merit because you are blinded by prejudice and are not objective at all. It is ok not to like me, but don't let that hinder your ability to see things or evaluate things that are not part of your routine. They call that being closed minded. When you are that way all learning of new ideas is impossible.
Wa Wa WA, how dare Rick aspire to seek a higher standard and try get as close to Zero Run Out as he can. He must be a lier and the video he showed was a magic trick. Don't you understand that tail stocks, bed ways, bearing, chucks and other things stand in your way making super tight tolerances impossible. I will just have to settle for a lower standard because that is what all the other guys do all of the time anyway. WA WA WA all the way home.
Pissing off the industry? That's a joke. Do you really think that means anything.
Calling me a liar? You can't win a honest debate of any consequence so why not attack the person instead of positions with any meat on the bone. And you can also look for some misspelled words to attack with to try to indicate someone else is stupid somehow. "Yeah there are other morons that I can convince of that". Good idea.
Everything you state is speculative or are conditions that everyone must face concerning equipment and measurement observation. You act like I can't fathom what professionalism is all about. Sorry, You have no idea who I am or what qualifications I can bring and your comments are baseless.
Before you showed up, I did not think there was any one here that missed the point more than Joey so completely and with such ineptitude. You do take the cake however.
All the while you are very vague about who your are or what you do.
I have no idea where you come up with three years of experience after I mentioned over 30. You just pull numbers out of your hat.
Sorry to see you disengage from the so called "shit show". You will be missed by me as a laughing stock IMO. you do make me laugh but I can't understand anything anyway and have been a such complete failure for my entire life. LOL
BTW, lets see some of your so called cues and pin installs, LOL, Now who is the real Lier.
JMO,
Rick
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Come on Rick, two posts before this one you said Thompson, so make up your mind.
And by the way, what the F do you know about flying. And only an idiot would fly an approach on an un calibrated system.
He bought up flying with Steve Klein.. lol
That's like telling an eskimo how to skin a seal... :wink:
JV
Steve,
Kleenex equates to tissue
Xerox equates to coping machines
Thomson Rod equates to " ? "
As I said, I am not a machinist and may make a mistake now and then concerning a term like Thomson Rod as generic.
I soloed in 1970 at the age of 16 and got my private pilot ticket when I was 18. About ten years ago I passed my Instrument examination.
Piper J3, Citabria, Navion, Piper 140 & 151, Cessna 150 & 172, Mooney M20e, Beech Sierra, V35 b Bonanza were the planes I flew over the years.
Just a civilian prop guy not a Jet Jockey or Military.
Rick
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