Could Stan clarify this statement in his video

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cookie man said:
Again not sure about your definition of totally objective. Does CTE pocket balls of most angles without adjustments, YES. I say most just because some extreme angles shouldn't be attempted. So its basically all angles that you would normally shoot.
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Thanks.

It does not seem like we are in total agreement but there may be some common ground.

TOI makes the long extreme cut shots at times actually seem easy.

There are times in some games when there is little option but to shoot those extreme angled shots, or at times they are in fact one's best option, that is, if one can make them with a fair amount of consistency.

Best to You & Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to You & Yours.
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Thanks.

It does not seem like we are in total agreement but there may be some common ground.

TOI makes the long extreme cut shots at times actually seem easy.

There are times in some games when there is little option but to shoot those extreme angled shots, or at times they are in fact one's best option, that is, if one can make them with a fair amount of consistency.

Best to You & Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to You & Yours.
Rick
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Yea I've played around with TOI but i have another method for inside english on extreme cuts. Most of those should be shot with inside IMO. You never did give a good answer to my question though. I think if you guys would share your results that you have with CTE we might be able to help.
 
cookie man said:
Yea I've played around with TOI but i have another method for inside english on extreme cuts. Most of those should be shot with inside IMO. You never did give a good answer to my question though. I think if you guys would share your results that you have with CTE we might be able to help.
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What question was that?
 
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cookie man said:
Yea I've played around with TOI but i have another method for inside english on extreme cuts. Most of those should be shot with inside IMO. You never did give a good answer to my question though. I think if you guys would share your results that you have with CTE we might be able to help.
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Just to be clear, you do understand that shooting those long thin ones for the effects of english spin & for TOI are different, don't you?
 
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I started treating the "easy" shots with the same precision and technique

I think you're missing the point of using TOI, which is to intentionally cut the ball...slightly more than your alignment.

This way the more shot speed you generate, the better off you are. When using all kinds of spins and speeds the game is increasingly difficult. For less difficult shots you can spin the ball, however, as the shot difficulty increases, so does the effect of spin on your margin of error.

One of my biggest breakthroughs was when I started treating the "easy" shots with the same precision and technique used on "difficult" shots. Pretty soon you stop differentiating between the two.

cookie man said:
Yea I've played around with TOI but i have another method for inside english on extreme cuts. Most of those should be shot with inside IMO. You never did give a good answer to my question though. I think if you guys would share your results that you have with CTE we might be able to help.
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CJ Wiley said:
Of course you don't, we all have our own ways of processing and performing. Some of these people think there's only one way to play and "CJ" certainly doesn't know that way. That's not as funny here on this "serious forum," but it's hilarious when you see that my "critics" can't run a rack.....and don't know the first thing about TOI, TIP Banking, Aiming, or at least can't utilize the information.

One thing that must be present to learn quickly and effectively is a model. I have produced that TOI Model for many players to use, share and benefit from.

I have hundreds of emails and PMs from players that have had their eyes opened through the process of using TOI for a few hours (as outlined on the DVD).
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Well I'm one of your critics, and there are videos online of me running a rack. I'm sure Neil (one of the other critics I imagine you're referring to) can run racks himself as well. Now I can't speak for Neil, but I myself purchased your first TOI video and can utilize the information just fine.

Then you have someone like English who none of us have any idea if he can run a rack who is debating a system he doesn't know the first thing about. Hasn't seen either DVD, but thinks he knows it all after watching some Youtube videos which were only meant to be supplemental to the DVDs.
 
CJ Wiley said:
I think you're missing the point of using TOI, which is to intentionally cut the ball...slightly more than your alignment.

This way the more shot speed you generate, the better off you are. When using all kinds of spins and speeds the game is increasingly difficult. For less difficult shots you can spin the ball, however, as the shot difficulty increases, so does the effect of spin on your margin of error.

One of my biggest breakthroughs was when I started treating the "easy" shots with the same precision and technique used on "difficult" shots. Pretty soon you stop differentiating between the two.
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No i get it CJ. I've played around with it quite a bit and it works fine just prefer to do it another way. Hope John is doing well, haven't seen him in a while.
 
cookie man said:
Shoot Stevie's shots and report back with your exact results. I'd like to know where the OB is going when you are shooting them with CTE.
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Okay, since we've had a good exchange, I'll indulge you by doing so tomorrow.

But what difference are these two shots than the 5 shots in Stans video?

Oh, I forgot I think you thought we were referring to Dr. Dave's site.

Let me get Stan's.

Here they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Psy5hOJT0

Are not they the same concept of getting a different result from the same visual.

I think it's been narrowed down that the dispute comes down to whether or not what allows one to get to a physically different line is subjective or objective.

If one allows oneself to be influenced into a different physical line then how is one still on the line that Stan has said that the two CTE & ETX line can only be seen at the same time from one spot.

From what seems to now being put out it would be like one can use the same CTE & ETA visual for every shot. All one has to do is rotate around until one is on the line to pocket the ball.

Well when does one stop that rotation to the correct line?

What is there that is objective that tells one, stop that's it?

Is not that rotation amount subjective?

Best,
Rick

Edit: for practicality's sake it would be better to use ETB which is CTE as it would be more centered to rotate round in either direction.
 
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Nobcity's Reverse Engineering Suggestion

I took your advice and played the 5 shots, more so the 1 and 5 shots, as they contrast so much, to see if I could get a feel for the CTE and ETA visual you guys are experiencing.

I gave up on placing the ghost ball pretty quick, as I couldn't get a feel for the Edge and A locations. So what I did was look for a slight undercut line, approx 1/2 tip inside sweep rotation from what I perceived to be the pocketing line.

Certainly the lines don't line up in any way, but with practice, they can act like a guide to establishing a direction for the CB from which to make the small sweep.

I found I needed to focus on the OB with CB below in my peripheral vision when sensing the initial direction to take to the CB. Toward the end of the inside sweep, I'd shift my vision to the OB again for fine tuning, which assisted me in when to stop the rotation.

With some practice, I can shoot pretty close even without looking back to the OB during the sweep. With the fine tuning, it works as well as any other method I use to aim if I take my time on a shot and stare at it hard.

While what I'm doing may be different to what others experience, I see strength in how using the lines as guides and staring so hard at the balls going into the stance, gets the shooter into a very good position from which to fine tune with a natural feeling sweep and the eyes are being trained very well in awareness of the CB and OB edges.

I would say that the CTE line dominated my perception and the ETA line was more like a second check guide that provided a bit of visual data on the surfaces / edges / relative positions of the balls... kinda like adding a touch of 3D to the perception.

Colin
 
I think it would be wise for all of us to put in daily of hours on the pool table

Rick means well, however, "butting words" with the hard core forum critics is fruitless.

I think it would be wise for all of us to put in daily of hours on the pool table. This is where we really learn, not debating "who's right and wrong" on a forum.

There are many levels to utilizing TOI or any other system designed for high level performance. Trying to teach TOI before you near the highest level would not be wise, that goes for "English" or anyone else......you what they say "we can only recognize what we're familiar with"........and such is life.


BeiberLvr said:
Well I'm one of your critics, and there are videos online of me running a rack. I'm sure Neil (one of the other critics I imagine you're referring to) can run racks himself as well. Now I can't speak for Neil, but I myself purchased your first TOI video and can utilize the information just fine.

Then you have someone like English who none of us have any idea if he can run a rack who is debating a system he doesn't know the first thing about. Hasn't seen either DVD, but thinks he knows it all after watching some Youtube videos which were only meant to be supplemental to the DVDs.
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Colin Colenso said:
I took your advice and played the 5 shots, more so the 1 and 5 shots, as they contrast so much, to see if I could get a feel for the CTE and ETA visual you guys are experiencing.

I gave up on placing the ghost ball pretty quick, as I couldn't get a feel for the Edge and A locations. So what I did was look for a slight undercut line, approx 1/2 tip inside sweep rotation from what I perceived to be the pocketing line.

Certainly the lines don't line up in any way, but with practice, they can act like a guide to establishing a direction for the CB from which to make the small sweep.

I found I needed to focus on the OB with CB below in my peripheral vision when sensing the initial direction to take to the CB. Toward the end of the inside sweep, I'd shift my vision to the OB again for fine tuning, which assisted me in when to stop the rotation.

With some practice, I can shoot pretty close even without looking back to the OB during the sweep. With the fine tuning, it works as well as any other method I use to aim if I take my time on a shot and stare at it hard.

While what I'm doing may be different to what others experience, I see strength in how using the lines as guides and staring so hard at the balls going into the stance, gets the shooter into a very good position from which to fine tune with a natural feeling sweep and the eyes are being trained very well in awareness of the CB and OB edges.

I would say that the CTE line dominated my perception and the ETA line was more like a second check guide that provided a bit of visual data on the surfaces / edges / relative positions of the balls... kinda like adding a touch of 3D to the perception.

Colin
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Sounds like your on the right path
 
Colin Colenso said:
Certainly the lines don't line up in any way, but with practice, they can act like a guide to establishing a direction for the CB from which to make the small sweep.
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Are you standing so that you are behind the centre to edge line AND the inside edge to A?
 
mista335 said:
Are you standing so that you are behind the centre to edge line AND the inside edge to A?
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I started standing in line with CCB to COB then drifted left (for right to left cuts) until my left eye (my dominant eye), was in line with the thick alignment.

From there, I looked at the CB and headed toward about a full tip offset, swerving toward the CCB as I moved the bridge in, to approximate a 1/2 tip pivot.

On fuller shots I didn't need as much sweep as the thinner cuts, but I guess that is dependent on my original perceived thick line.
 
mista335 said:
So you've given up on CTE and are inventing your own system?
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That was the advice Stan gave in the 5 shot link provided earlier in this thread. The thick alignment is just a description of the visual, which has to be thick by definition of a left to right sweep to the required pot line.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
That was the advice Stan gave in the 5 shot link provided earlier in this thread. The thick alignment is just a description of the visual, which has to be thick by definition of a left to right sweep to the required pot line.
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Colin,

Are you suggesting that every shot could be made by starting with the visual that would be thick & then employing a Thinning Pivot?

If so, then one would not need to utilize a thickening pivot from an overcut position.

That would be along the line of thinking of TOI. CJ as stated that he aligns to just CTC & CTE. I had some trouble being successful utilizing just the two lines as I was using a very low deflection shaft & thus was yielding less CB squirt. So...I began employing a third point 1/2 way between the two which correlates to the 1/4 ball lines of A & C for CTE.

Actually I many times use the different shadow spot lines.

Sorry for stumbling over the question.

Best,
Rick
 
Colin Colenso said:
That was the advice Stan gave in the 5 shot link provided earlier in this thread. The thick alignment is just a description of the visual, which has to be thick by definition of a left to right sweep to the required pot line.
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If you're not aligning centre to edge AND inside edge to say 'A' then you are not using CTE.

In that video Stan says "centre to edge and edge to A" numerous times.

I would go back to the basics. I think you said you owned the first DVD. It's all there.

You sound like you're not manual pivoting now but sweeping instead.

Look at Gerry's simple explanation for sweeping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fosUvnt8AXU
 
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