I would definitely play better if my opponents wouldn't make so many balls.
I know that.
Gabriels 10 Ft Pool Table
- Thread starter Scaramouche
- Start date
I would definitely play better if my opponents wouldn't make so many balls.
I know that.
I understand this was a decision diamond billiards has to make as to what direction they want to go: do they make the switch, but in the meantime upset their past customers who might believe they have an inferior cushion (which they don't, Artemis is excellent)? Or stick with Artemis but lose out on simonis/klebatch marketing which is the future.
I thought Klabatch makes two different cushions, one for three cushion billiards and another for pool. It's not as dense the one for pool and feels quite soft
https://www.pooltablefeltcloth.com/klematch-rubber-cushions/category.html
Klematch P 59 (k55 profile)for pool tables
Klematch No 37 profile for carom
what they are marketing with simonis is made for pool tables and should perform as such.
The cushion density is different from each manufacturing company. Consistent playing conditions is a big issue of pro pool!!!
Superspeed is the standard. IMO not sure why diamond went Artemis? Probably, Brunswick has exclusive rights? Anyway, someone will re-engineer it overseas. Knock off everything else.
Kd
Superspeed is the standard. IMO not sure why diamond went Artemis? Probably, Brunswick has exclusive rights? Anyway, someone will re-engineer it overseas. Knock off everything else.
Kd
What are you guys talking about that simonis and klematch will be taking over???? Is there a press release anywhere? How did you come to this conclusion?
Based on that marketing info Diamond is going to go away from Artemis, and Brunswick is going to go away from whoever makes their SuperSpeed cushion? I think that's a very big leap, imo.
I would have to assume that all professional tournaments that simonis sponsors will be utilizing the klebatch rubber as well. This should be interesting to see how it develops because if diamond doesn't want to agree, they might find another table manufacturer that will agree to the klebatch/simonis deal.
Cushions are the new market, because of you can sell the cloth and rubber at same time marketing them both, you therefore increase your earning potential.
I've already installed a set on a Diamond 9ft Professional at the Bank Shot to test, 2 weeks later replaced them with Artemis intercontinental K55' cushions.
PS. The cushions I installed were the Klematch P59' cushions, which have the same density as the P37' cushions. So, before anyone goes jumping on the bandwagon about Diamond switching cushions, they're not changing away from the Artemis.
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Simonis now owns Aramith as of a few years ago. The DCC is simonis cloth, and Cyclop balls, yet simonis is still a sponsor.
I just don't see anything changing in the pool world. In the 3 cushion world I think there are a lot more cushions used than in the pool world, which is dominated by Diamond on the pro side.
You have a point. There are competing ball companies, cloth companies, cushion companies. In the end, it always comes down to money talks. Who is willing to spend more to sponsor an event. It wasn't by chance that Michael Jordan was holding a Gatorade cup with logo out during timeouts of an NBA finals.
It seems to me a Simonis/Aramith empire can out spend a championship cloth/cyclops anytime they want. Diamond can hitch their wagon to Artemis with the cushions installed flat side up all they want, but if the money comes in from the other guys, it's anyone's guess.
Off your post, I decided to call Simonis incorporated in Libertyville, IL to speak with a representative. They confirmed that there are two different densities to the pool rubber Klematch p59 and the carom rubber P37.
Technical Characteristics:- Shore A hardness: 43 +/- 3 - Rebound according to DIN 53512: 75% +/- 5% - Rebound on cushions according to KLEBER Industries method: 75%+/-5%
The p37 is a bigger cushion 1.181 from nose to backing, and from side profile, clearly more rubber in the p37 making it right for carom.
The p59 will react completely different than p37 making it correct for pool according to the representative.
Now if we could just get the technical characteristics for Artemis and Brunswick super speed, we could pull a doctor Dave and get really scientific. :thumbup:
no pics of the table yet?
What "money" are you talking about coming in from "the other" guys? They ALL sell their products, they DON'T pay anyone to use them for endorsement.
Who needs the technical spec ' s when the players who played on the Diamond I rebuilt didn't care for how they played...and some of the players are in the HOF. I know how dense a cushion is when you can't leave a dimple in the nose of the cushion when no matter how hard you pull the cloth and staple right where you're stretching. Every time someone is trying to sell something in this industry...there marketing strategy is that what ever they're selling, it's always better than the competition. That don't mean it really is, but that's what people are always lead to believe. Championship cloth is just as good as Simonis, and lasts longer, but costs less....right? As a player, and as a table mechanic, I call BS as I've worked with and played on both when new, broke in, and worn out, and overall Simonis is a much better cloth....but, people with something to gain would argue otherwise. You also mentioned something about the Artemis cushions being flat side up, so do you also know something about how cushions play?
I very much respect and value your experience in the table mechanic world, which is why I'm running the information by you. I've heard from other highly experienced field mechanics information that contradicts yours. it's all very interesting to me. I've also read the debates you and others have had on the flat side up/curved side up Artemis stuff. Some say no way flat side should be up, while others who are loyal to diamond say flat side up is what's best.
I've seen highly respected mechanics install Artemis curved side up on a gold crown and say it's great, also seen and played on highly respected mechanics rails who installed Klebatch. And now with simonis jumping on board with klebatch, I see it as more validity for that type of cushion.
Once again, thank you for your service to the industry and your input is always interesting.
No table manufacturer is jumping on board to install the Klematch P59 cushions that I'm aware of. Here's something to consider and think about. Most all pool tables sold in this country are done so at the cheapest possible manufacturing cost, which also means they're installing for the most part, cheap cushions as well. Ask yourself why? Second, K55' profile cushions are primarily used on Diamonds and Brunswicks, for the most part, the rest of the table manufactures use a K66' profile cushion. So, if neither Diamond or Brunswick are willing to switch cushion brands....who is Simonis selling the Klematch cushions to? which by the way, are more expensive than the Artemis cushions that Diamond currently uses as well as the Brunswick Super speed cushions, and we're not talking by just a few dollars difference in price.
It has to be the European/Chinese market then? I believe Klematch is made in France. Maybe Simonis believes they are the superior cushion over Artemis, like they believe aramith is the superior ball over everything else. so they will market it as such and get table owners to go with klematch during the next re-cloth job. Maybe they are looking at the aftermarket restorations and not the manufacturers brands. So they aren't banking on diamonds or Brunswick to switch anything. But they are pushing the klematch, that we know from their advertisements in magazines and on their website.
As far as top level, and I seriously mean the top of the food chain pool table mechanics out here, that list really comes down to Mark Gregory and myself. I'm not taking anything away from anyone else that works on pool tables, so don't anyone miss understand what I'm saying. Of everyone that works on pool tables in this country, the two of use are the only ones working on pool tables that would never say "that's good enough" and call the job done. We both are always looking for how to make a pool table play better, with one big difference. Mark is looking to recreate how his tables play, to play like they did in the 70s' and 80s' when we were growing up playing pool, which means a little slower playing tables. Mark and I talk about this all the time, but Mark is old school, and hard-headed, but not in a bad way. I on the other hand do realize the pool world has changed, and so have the demands of the players. Simonis has been around for over 300 years, but not on pool tables. I pioneered Simonis cloth on the pool tables in the bars in Washington state for the first time back in the early 80s'. Cloth has changed, balls have changed, cushions have changed....everything about this industry has changed, including the players. The days of old school pool tables, requiring a huge stroke to move the cue ball around the table table is over, but some players just can't accept the fact that pool is evolving forward, not backward. Tables today play faster because the cushions are better, the cloth is better, hell' even the tips on cues today are better. What people, and table mechanics fail to understand today, is that the pockets on tournament used tables today have gotten tighter and tighter, making that monster stroke of yesterday....obsolete. Finesse is taking its place today in order to pocket balls, because of faster tables, and pockets that don't play right. So, there has to be a balance in how a table plays, in order for it to play right. Slow cushions, fast playing surface...bad combination. Lighting fast rails, slow playing surface....bad combination. Rails that blend the speed of the cushions with the speed of the playing surface....that's the correct combination for today's players. The ability to drift a ball into a pocket that would never go if shot harder, that's called cheating to pocket on today's tables with tighter pockets....that's a table that plays right. Balls fired into the center of the pockets and stay down....that's a table that plays right today. Bank shots that can be made today, that would have never gone on the tables of old...is a table that plays right today.
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