Full Time Push Out...

[Old Nine Baller]

I think everyone would be suprised how many more players they're are today that will take that tough shot on instead of giving it back. I always thought a good banker had some advantage before Texas express rules. Johnnyt

Ignoring for a moment the fact that when two players are playing even-up you must figure that they are equally matched, the advantage that a good banker had was twofold, at least.

For one, he could push-out to a tough bank when hooked or out-of-line and his opponent might not like the shot he left. Only problem with that scenario was the opponent may play a safety off the push-out instead of giving the shot back thus negating the good banker's advantage.

The second advantage was when the good banker was giving up weight. He could push-out to a bank where his opponent couldn't get on the next ball even if he made the bank. If told to shoot again he would usually play a safety. The key to making the bank is getting on the next ball and running out. In this scenario (giving up weight) the weaker player has advantages also. He can push-out to where he can get to his money ball if told to shoot again but the better player has a very tough time getting to the 9 ball.

The better banker does not have a decided advantage playing two-foul 9 ball. His supposed advantage can usually be mitigated or negated with safety play. You must remember there are two players in the game, not just one who has control of everything.

ONB

 

[Paul Schofield]

That "tough shot" will have some other challenges as well.....shape on the next ball.

The reason 2 Foul Roll Out is strategic is you can't ever win on a safety, therefore it's critical to recognize shot percentages and apply them to every roll out.

Many times when you play safe, it's not to "hook" the opponent, but to tempt them into a shot, or force them to roll out (which is a disadvantage).

I have been reading your posts on push-out for years. I respectfully disagree with all of your roll-out strategies. I am very surprised at your advice considering your ability, knowledge, and reputation. I do agree with you in that push-out is the best way to play (IMO) and it is a dirty shame that it is not played any more. I cannot imagine that it will ever return.

 

[Chip Roberson]

Had to jump into this fray, I did...Two Shot Foul ,,,Our top players will still be the top players..it will limit others from making their mark,,because,,Two Shot Foul makes the game tougher,,the players that know,,will know each time they push out ,,to someone who can really let it roll,,that they may never get a chance to get to the table again--
And that's the way it should be--instead of hook and hook again--you'll see more run outs --and I mean run outs from spots you would never see them run out from now--One shot foul has taken a lot away from the game for one reason,,to make it quicker--In my opinion it hasn't made the game better...

 

[macguy]

Maybe to a expierienced player who knows what a hard shot is , but to anyone else they see pool as not being that hard it has no real wow factor ,, That's why it can't substain a TV contract , pool is 2 things , boring and real boring , take your pic


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You are exactly right and that may be the real problem with a novice public and pool. The scale of the game is very small. Nothing like golf, tennis, football or any host of other sports.

Pool is two guys walking around a little table with balls on it and the most difficulty thing on the table still looks like nothing to the average person. There is no way to ever overcome this.

The game can be improved to make it more interesting for the pool player to watch, but for the non player, they will never ever watch the game/sport for more then a few minutes no matter what. There just is no mainstream audience for pool.

 

[itsfroze]

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[itsfroze]

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[liakos]

Maybe it's because I love this sport so much that I'm just blind to what you two are
saying about it, but I just can't and don't agree that this sport is boring.

It's not a matter of being blind! I love the game, and as far as boring, my favorite to watch is 1-pocket so that tells you how much I love the game! But it's not about you and me watching the game! From your words, I'm pretty sure we can both sit down and watch a few good matches start to finish and say that was very enjoyable conversing with each other about shot selection! But the point macguy is trying to make is to the average person, there not gonna watch more than 2-3 minutes of what we have to offer as of right now!

Like I said, you and i love and enjoy the sport because we know what it takes to play the game, but most can't fathom the technicality of the sport! By far the hardest sport on this planet and possibly the universe! Although, I would love to play some 1-pocket on the moon,,,,,,, get some pretty fun rolls I bet!!

Happy holidays to all

 

[macguy]

Maybe it's because I love this game so much that I'm just blind to what you two are
saying about it, but I just can't and don't agree that this game is boring.

In person with the excitement and electricity in the air it can be fun to watch. Now the small scale comes into it again though. You can't watch the game from even 40 feet away and get any feel of the game. On a TV screen it is even worse.

Even in a Schwarzenegger movie with big fiery explosions on TV is nothing, you have to see it on the big screen for any effect. Pool is only interesting and exciting table side it does not carry over to a TV screen.

Maybe for the hardcore player and watcher, but for the general public forget it. The general public is changing channels in like two minutes.
If you took it on "Shark Tank" looking for investors, they would all be out in a second because it is an unmarketable product.

 

[itsfroze]

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[macguy]

Still don't believe it, sorry ! :thumbup:

Really, I can't imagine any way the game can be made so the general public would have any interest. Maybe some short term novelty thing with celebrities or something.

The public doesn't even care or play the game enough to make a pool room able to keep their doors open in most cities.
Beyond the small subculture of pool, no audience exists. The game for the games sake alone, is an unsell-able product.

 

[itsfroze]

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[Mikjary]

Pool's main viewing audience is probably over 35 years old and getting older. The digital age hasn't been kind to a slower paced pastime like pool or bowling. If you watch a Darts match on the telly, there's as much excitement going on as a football game. It's not the activity, it's the perception by the crowd and the commentators.

Pool needs the celebrities to draw in the uneducated, unknowing viewer that searches the airwaves for entertainment. I watch shows about many things I have no idea what the hell's happening or what's involved in getting the activity accomplished, but there I am along with millions of other newbs.

Why? As the show progresses, it's the characters. I like what I see or disprove and wait to see them fail in a wreck. Human nature. We watch and laugh, or sweat and pull for the loser to become the winner. We've never seen the antagonists, but we form the bond and tune in next week to see what twists and turns are awaiting them.

Pool is methodical and predictable at the highest levels. The highlight of a match is only when a top player F's up when he should've gotten out. Then the crowd sits up in their seats because the guy's out of line and now has to come with a great shot.

We're attracted by struggle, not predictable outcomes. Not saying we want to watch struggling players, but instead players that show heart and fight to overcome strong odds against them.

The characters are the key to this. They're the ones who'll promote the game. They're the ones that will draw in the next generation of players and fans trying to emulate what they've seen. Can you imagine a CJ or Keith action figure? :grin-square:

When that happens, you know pool has made it!

Best,
Mike

 

[HawaiianEye]

Pool is methodical and predictable at the highest levels. The highlight of a match is only when a top player F's up when he should've gotten out. Then the crowd sits up in their seats because the guy's out of line and now has to come with a great shot.

We're attracted by struggle, not predictable outcomes. Not saying we want to watch struggling players, but instead players that show heart and fight to overcome strong odds against them.

Best,
Mike

This almost NEVER happens in 1-foul 9-ball. It is the SAME game, OVER and OVER!

NOBODY has a HARD shot and goes for it. They will play safe rather than take a chance 99% of the time.

In 2-foul 9-ball players will go for harder shots and exciting breakouts because there is a bit of a safety net...they know they can "push" if they get in trouble.

 

[ribdoner]

The more a person knows the game the more enjoyable it is to watch the game which can be said for sports in general

untold millions play, but don't know, the game (pool)

 

[CJ Wiley]

Remember, we can only recognize what we're familiar with.

You're right, and probably can't imagine any way the game can be interesting. This just means you don't have the necessary experience. There were many people that said the same thing about poker and tennis, and golf, and hockey.........

Remember, we can only recognize what we're familiar with.....pool has interesting qualities, however, without essential experience it does look impossible.....and, of course it's just cleverly disguised. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Really, I can't imagine any way the game can be made so the general public would have any interest. Maybe some short term novelty thing with celebrities or something.

The public doesn't even care or play the game enough to make a pool room able to keep their doors open in most cities.
Beyond the small subculture of pool, no audience exists. The game for the games sake alone, is an unsell-able product.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The game must be a strategic challenge or it's like two players practicing

Like James Christopher said, many of the top "one foul" players would be good short stops playing 2 Foul. We know they're ability to make hard shots off the end rail will be weak, and not being about to win on a safeties (because of ball in hand) will be shocking. The cream will eventually rise back to the top, and it will take some serious practicing both physically and mentally.

Only the people that have actually played 2 Foul will recognize the core differences. With a little refining they can make the game incredibly entertaining for an effluent crowd who normally wouldn't watch pool. The game must be a strategic challenge or it's like two players practicing against each other....especially racking for themselves.

This almost NEVER happens in 1-foul 9-ball. It is the SAME game, OVER and OVER!

NOBODY has a HARD shot and goes for it. They will play safe rather than take a chance 99% of the time.

In 2-foul 9-ball players will go for harder shots and exciting breakouts because there is a bit of a safety net...they know they can "push" if they get in trouble.

 

[one stroke]

This almost NEVER happens in 1-foul 9-ball. It is the SAME game, OVER and OVER!

NOBODY has a HARD shot and goes for it. They will play safe rather than take a chance 99% of the time.

In 2-foul 9-ball players will go for harder shots and exciting breakouts because there is a bit of a safety net...they know they can "push" if they get in trouble.

That's all fine and dandy but how do you stop Shane's break and running ability with 2 foul .,..


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[one stroke]

Like James Christopher said, many of the top "one foul" players would be good short stops playing 2 Foul. We know they're ability to make hard shots off the end rail will be weak, and not being about to win on a safeties (because of ball in hand) will be shocking. The cream will eventually rise back to the top, and it will take some serious practicing both physically and mentally.

Only the people that have actually played 2 Foul will recognize the core differences. With a little refining they can make the game incredibly entertaining for an effluent crowd who normally wouldn't watch pool. The game must be a strategic challenge or it's like two players practicing against each other....especially racking for themselves.

It's highly unlikely there would be much change among the top players , the top players are the top players because they have the best skill sets , changing the rules will do very little when the smoke clears ,,


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[Paul Schofield]

Here is the challenge:

Devise a set of rules that does 3 things:
1. Plays faster than one-foul and push-out
2. Is more strategic than one-foul and push-out
3. Requires a different but higher skill-set than one-foul or push-out

 

[CJ Wiley]

The goal is to bring out the best of the game, not to change the top players. The best players are always the ones that are dedicating themselves the most, so they'll do what's necessary to get their games up to speed.

It's highly unlikely there would be much change among the top players , the top players are the top players because they have the best skill sets , changing the rules will do very little when the smoke clears ,,


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