This is an exceptionally well reasoned and well presented post.
Full Time Push Out...
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This is an exceptionally well reasoned and well presented post.
Of course I knew that, it's common knowledge, and I also real eyes that many people like to live vicariously through other sub-cultures. No one wants to kill and beat people, but they do love to watch mob movies, that's why 'The Sopranos," 'The GodFather', and 'Goodfellas' are always going to be popular with the masses.
They aren't appealing to mobsters with mob movies any more than they're targeting rednecks with redneck shows. 'Duck Dynasty' is appealing to the masses, and so is pool if it's put in the correct scenario on TV. Gambling is essential, but not necessarily "hustling".
You have totaly lost your mind any show ever produced has a target group that they expect the majority of the viewership to come from , for instance I don't think men and boys from 8-108 are the target group for Oprah
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DEEEEEEEEEEE FENCE spelled wrong.
Ironically that's a huge part of Snooker.
The American model of pool in its current state was often molded by promoters and how to maximize play and to stop all the adult babysitting for the TD, McChesney comes to mind when he implemented......RACK YOUR OWN, no different than bar 8 ball rules favoring the local hot shot. Pool here is ME me me all the time. Snooker it's ''for the sport'' all the time. But here in the states we keep trying to herd cats/leopards.
Ironically that's a huge part of Snooker.
The American model of pool in its current state was often molded by promoters and how to maximize play and to stop all the adult babysitting for the TD, McChesney comes to mind when he implemented......RACK YOUR OWN, no different than bar 8 ball rules favoring the local hot shot. Pool here is ME me me all the time. Snooker it's ''for the sport'' all the time. But here in the states we keep trying to herd cats/leopards.
So mob movies target mobsters and basketball movies target basketball players?
You've been watching too much Oprah (whatever that is).
You've been watching too much Oprah (whatever that is).
when dealing with the pros you need rules that bring out the best qualities
That's right, snooker is a complex game, defensively, strategically and offensively. It makes "one foul" look like a children's game. This is not the case with "Two Foul Rules," they are actually more complex and strategic than snooker in many ways.
I was partners with John McChesney so he told me the inside story. It was not big secret, the "McDermott Tour" was his tour and he ran it very well. The Texas Express Group (Robin, Randy, John) implemented the Texas Express Rules when John was the president of Champs Billiards (that later became CJ's Billiard Palace).
These rules were never designed for professional tournaments, as a matter of fact it was okay if no pros ever played in a McDermott Tour Event - it was a semi pro circuit and there was an agreement with my pro tour (PCA) to supply players.....but there was no other connection between the semi pro circuit and the pro circuit (PCA).
We did not use the "Texas Express Rules" in the PCA and John was fine with that. He never wanted us to use their rules, it was to speed up play and increase the fields by equalizing skill levels.
"Texas Express Rules" are find for semi pro events, however, when dealing with the pros you need rules that bring out the best qualities of the game....not the worst (breaking/racking/kicking/ducking/).
That's right, snooker is a complex game, defensively, strategically and offensively. It makes "one foul" look like a children's game. This is not the case with "Two Foul Rules," they are actually more complex and strategic than snooker in many ways.
I was partners with John McChesney so he told me the inside story. It was not big secret, the "McDermott Tour" was his tour and he ran it very well. The Texas Express Group (Robin, Randy, John) implemented the Texas Express Rules when John was the president of Champs Billiards (that later became CJ's Billiard Palace).
These rules were never designed for professional tournaments, as a matter of fact it was okay if no pros ever played in a McDermott Tour Event - it was a semi pro circuit and there was an agreement with my pro tour (PCA) to supply players.....but there was no other connection between the semi pro circuit and the pro circuit (PCA).
We did not use the "Texas Express Rules" in the PCA and John was fine with that. He never wanted us to use their rules, it was to speed up play and increase the fields by equalizing skill levels.
"Texas Express Rules" are find for semi pro events, however, when dealing with the pros you need rules that bring out the best qualities of the game....not the worst (breaking/racking/kicking/ducking/).
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So mob movies target mobsters and basketball movies target basketball players?
You've been watching too much Oprah (whatever that is).
Mob movies adults adults
When his opponent does the same. Or conditions are not just right, or if he's got jet lag, or fever or he's human. No different than in a tennis match where one guy serves forty aces in one match. But it doesn't always happen every time in every location on every continent. Thinking no one has a chance against him is naïve. Just talked with John Henderson today aka Hendy who's now 75....he beat Shane this past year in an event 3-1.
There is NO WAY to stop ANYBODY from breaking and running! The ONLY thing that stops that is when they MISS or foul. There is NO WAY to stop ME if I am breaking and running...even if you are SVB. If you are sitting on the bench WATCHING, you CAN'T do anything.
It is what you leave them with you turn over the table to them for THEIR shot. A skilled player has MUCH MORE control of the table in 2-foul when they turn it over to their opponent.
Yes I believe this to be true , however does anyone honestly believe that there's enough of it to make the game that much more entertaining to the general public , I just don't see it , at the end of the day a horse is a horse of corse
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I don't know, no matter what, in 2 foul the incoming player is in control. He can take the shot, play safe or hand it back. He can shoot at a low % position shot and if it doesn't work, just push out.
2 foul takes all the pressure off the incoming player and always acts as a "Get out of jail free" card. Danny DiLiberto, who you would think would be a fan of 2 foul pushout makes a very good case if you spoke to him of why it was actually pretty bad way to play. That is not so say 1FBIH is better, but there are better ways to play then either of them.
Is pool the only game that has de evolved over the last 25 years?
Can you believe how many people don't know the deep levels of "Two Foul"?
Is pool the only game that has de evolved over the last 25 years?
The rules have to be slightly adjusted for TV, however, the 2 Foul rules take 10 times more knowledge than "one foul".....and I'm being conservative. Knowledge is power, and it's also entertainment. It's knowledge that wins Super Bowls, and PGA Championships, not just talent, skill and training.
Can you believe how many people don't know the deep levels of "Two Foul"?
Is pool the only game that has de evolved over the last 25 years?
The rules have to be slightly adjusted for TV, however, the 2 Foul rules take 10 times more knowledge than "one foul".....and I'm being conservative. Knowledge is power, and it's also entertainment. It's knowledge that wins Super Bowls, and PGA Championships, not just talent, skill and training.
An advanced "Two Foul" player will put you in positions you can't even roll out
No matter what? Are you sure about that?
An advanced "Two Foul" player will put you in positions you can't even roll out, that's hardly "being in control" coming to the table.
No matter what? Are you sure about that?
An advanced "Two Foul" player will put you in positions you can't even roll out, that's hardly "being in control" coming to the table.
No matter what? Are you sure about that?
An advanced "Two Foul" player will put you in positions you can't even roll out, that's hardly "being in control" coming to the table.
I am still in control. He may make a good hit and tie me up where rolling out will leave a shot. I can also make a bad hit as my roll out and change the lay of the balls.
Until he gets back to the table I am in control even if I do nothing other then try to get a little lucky. The player in the chair is always at the mercy of what ever may happen on the table be it intentional of not. Unless you are in the process of running out, anything can happen against good players.
I hate the idea that a player can be running out and get himself in trouble say going into a cluster and just bail out with a push. First of all, BIH any where on the table has no place in pool, period. It is an utterly ridiculous way for top players to be playing
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No matter what? Are you sure about that?
An advanced "Two Foul" player will put you in positions you can't even roll out, that's hardly "being in control" coming to the table.
that's what i hated about playing (cheap) Louie, he'd roll out to places i'd roll out from or he'd roll out to situations which were "shape" traps for mortals...that said it was easier to clock a monster because they could end up in situations where they had to unleash the beast prematurely
a small, insignificant part of the game, players rarely hook themselves totally
It's okay that you haven't played much 2 Foul, but please don't try to explain it.
Everyone that hasn't played it gets stuck on the same thing......what if my opponent hooks himself, he can just roll out.
This is just a small, insignificant part of the game, players rarely hook themselves totally playing "one foul"......they may hook themselves more playing "Two Foul" because they're actually trying to break balls out or do something offensive, instead of "ducking" or "kicking".
QUOTE=macguy;5023155]I am still in control. He may make a good hit and tie me up where rolling out will leave a shot. I can also make a bad hit as my roll out and change the lay of the balls.
Until he gets back to the table I am in control even if I do nothing other then try to get a little lucky. The player in the chair is always at the mercy of what ever may happen on the table be it intentional of not. Unless you are in the process of running out, anything can happen against good players.
I hate the idea that a player can be running out and get himself in trouble say going into a cluster and just bail out with a push. First of all, BIH any where on the table has no place in pool, period. It is an utterly ridiculous way for top players to be playing[/QUOTE]
It's okay that you haven't played much 2 Foul, but please don't try to explain it.
Everyone that hasn't played it gets stuck on the same thing......what if my opponent hooks himself, he can just roll out.
This is just a small, insignificant part of the game, players rarely hook themselves totally playing "one foul"......they may hook themselves more playing "Two Foul" because they're actually trying to break balls out or do something offensive, instead of "ducking" or "kicking".
QUOTE=macguy;5023155]I am still in control. He may make a good hit and tie me up where rolling out will leave a shot. I can also make a bad hit as my roll out and change the lay of the balls.
Until he gets back to the table I am in control even if I do nothing other then try to get a little lucky. The player in the chair is always at the mercy of what ever may happen on the table be it intentional of not. Unless you are in the process of running out, anything can happen against good players.
I hate the idea that a player can be running out and get himself in trouble say going into a cluster and just bail out with a push. First of all, BIH any where on the table has no place in pool, period. It is an utterly ridiculous way for top players to be playing[/QUOTE]
Another push out option
Sorry for posting this so late in the thread.
Another option which I have seen played is: You can push-out (roll out) at any time,
BUT whoever accepts the shot MUST LEGALLY POCKET A BALL, otherwise it is a foul. So if you roll-out, be prepared for making the next shot if your opponent returns it to you. Makes you think twice before pushing out.
I think some old-timers can recall this rule.
RL
Sorry for posting this so late in the thread.
Another option which I have seen played is: You can push-out (roll out) at any time,
BUT whoever accepts the shot MUST LEGALLY POCKET A BALL, otherwise it is a foul. So if you roll-out, be prepared for making the next shot if your opponent returns it to you. Makes you think twice before pushing out.
I think some old-timers can recall this rule.
RL
The game must be strategically fast, not strategically slow
Yes, we actually incorporated a version of that rule, not the same, although it gets similar results.
Otherwise players can move too defensively which is back to the same type problem.
The game must be strategically fast, not strategically slow to be entertaining.
Yes, we actually incorporated a version of that rule, not the same, although it gets similar results.
Otherwise players can move too defensively which is back to the same type problem.
The game must be strategically fast, not strategically slow to be entertaining.