Full Time Push Out...

[Old Nine Baller]

In one foul you have three options:

1) Try to run the table

2) Play Safe (duck)

3) Kick

In 2 Foul there's a battle between the two players for the first shot (after the roll out), this means you can't win playing "safe," you usually must pocket a difficult shot to win.

The offensive element of the game goes up dramatically, because you must strategically out shoot and out maneuver your opponent to win a game.....and against players like Buddy Hall and Mike Siges this was a challenging task.

The difference is nowadays 1 pocket is probably at the pinnacle of its popularity & if you like to move instead of shoot you can play that.

Nobody will offer to play CJ One-Pocket. After all, he learned the game in 3 weeks. For most players it takes a lifetime.

ONB

 

[alstl]

How can we increase play/viewership/interest for the sport...for non players.

There used to be a local show called bowling for dollars. Viewers had a chance to win a few bucks.

Manipulating the rules won't work because that doesn't provide an incentive for people who don't care about pool to watch.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Playing 2-Foul allows a player to observe their opponents "strengths" and "weaknesses" and use them to their advantage that 1-Foul doesn't allow. For example:

1) In 1-Foul, I may have to kick at a ball you left me and no matter what I do if I hit the ball it will give you a somewhat "good" shot or if I miss it will give you BIH In 2-Foul, I can push to a spot that will leave you in "worse" position than what I would have given you if I had shot the kick and hit it. My advantage here is that I ALREADY know what I am going to do if you give the shot back to me before I even shoot the first shot. You, on the other hand, have no idea what I am going to do before I do it. Therefore, you have to then think of what you are going to do, then figure your odds, then shoot or pass it back to me

2) After playing a short while, I may notice you have a fat gut and can't reach over the table in a certain way...I am going to make sure I leave you this shot every time I get the chance if I push out. I will make you and the bridge become very acquainted. If you are left handed, I will make sure I push to shot that give the advantage to right handers.

3) If I see you can't bank, I will push to banks. If I see you can't draw the ball as far as me, I will leave you 8-foot straight-in draws shots that you will have to shoot for position on the next ball. If I see you can't shoot over balls, guess what shot I'm going to leave you.

And if my memory serves me correctly, there are spot shots that come into play where you have to shoot behind the head string. I may scratch intentionally in order to leave a spot shot or to tie up balls. The game is TOTALLY different than 1-Foul when it comes to strategies and who is the "smarter" player.

This strategy has been recited over and over in this thread (even by CJ). I adamantly and respectfully disagree. This is a strategy to lose. I have always been very suprised at how few players (even top players) fully understand and employ the best (and maybe the only) winning approach to push-out. I learned in the 70s that it truly is one of pool's least understood methods of play.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm not suggesting we bring 2 foul back, it doesn't have the components for TV

Yes, one foul does have defense, the safety. It does have offense, running out.

That's' all it has. Two Foul is one of the most demanding of all cue sports, it requires knowledge that few even know exists. The degree of shot-making the game requires is also vastly more difficult that "one foul ball in hand".

I'm not suggesting we bring 2 foul back, it doesn't have the components for TV. We have developed a game that brings out the best of the game, however, it's not straight "2 Foul" rules.

Let me get this straight, in earlier posts you advocated push out using the analogy that all other sports have defense but 1 foul pool doesn't. Now your advocating it stating its about the offensive element of the game going up, really? Seriously? I've heard of arguing both sides of a point but usually that contains a coherent argument. 1 foul has defense, it's called a safety. It also has offense, it's called getting out. 2 foul push out is about moving, that's all. If I want to outmaneuver an opponent I'll play one pocket. 1 foul is the MOST offensive form of the game, period. Oh, before you write me off as someone that "doesn't get it", all the while thinking it's because I haven't played push out as many younger players today haven't, let me nip that in the bud by saying I cut my teeth in this game playing push out before Texas Express rules came about so I've played plenty of both & prefer 1 foul. Why? I have plenty of offense to get out & if a low percentage shot arises, I've got a safety game & I can kick when necessary.

Perhaps you're trying to reinvent the wheel thinking promoting 2 foul will be your ticket back in to the show. It won't sell. As I stated earlier, 2 foul is about moving, I know it, you know it. The difference is nowadays 1 pocket is probably at the pinnacle of its popularity & if you like to move instead of shoot you can play that.

 

[Island Drive]

Per Rack

Yes, one foul does have defense, the safety. It does have offense, running out.

That's' all it has. Two Foul is one of the most demanding of all cue sports, it requires knowledge that few even know exists. The degree of shot-making the game requires is also vastly more difficult that "one foul ball in hand".

I'm not suggesting we bring 2 foul back, it doesn't have the components for TV. We have developed a game that brings out the best of the game, however, it's not straight "2 Foul" rules.

Push a Piece Per Player.............Even the non players that watch pool, understand the roll out now FINALLY. :thumbup:

 

[one stroke]

Yes, one foul does have defense, the safety. It does have offense, running out.

That's' all it has. Two Foul is one of the most demanding of all cue sports, it requires knowledge that few even know exists. The degree of shot-making the game requires is also vastly more difficult that "one foul ball in hand".

I'm not suggesting we bring 2 foul back, it doesn't have the components for TV. We have developed a game that brings out the best of the game, however, it's not straight "2 Foul" rules.

Who's we? is this secret game locked up in a time castle ,,

1

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is the reason it's a poor TV game, not because of the players

People talk about how much better the pool commentary should be. However, they are doing the best they can with what they have a been given........a game that's unexciting at it's core, a game that is so predictable that it's boring, yet so difficult to control that it appears unorganized.

What I mean is, after the break there's no guarantee that the game will ever by entertaining. So if you look at each game like they could be a possible "10" (in entertainment value) most one foul games register about a 3 or 4 (out of 10).

Two Foul is a different situation altogether, especially when the break is neutralized and you can see what the game really is all about.......not "breaking and running out," this isn't any more exciting (once a pro is in line) than watching a series of 2 foot putts by a golfer.

The better a player plays position the worse off the audience, because they are in for an hour of mundane (yet effective to win) pool that never gives them the spark to play themselves. This is the reason it's a poor TV game, not because of the players, money or game, it's because the rules aren't designed to bring out dynamic shot-making and clever, strategic movement.

Push a Piece Per Player.............Even the non players that watch pool, understand the roll out now FINALLY. :thumbup:

 

[Mikjary]

People talk about how much better the pool cometary should be. However, they are doing the best they can with what they have a been given........a game that's unexciting at it's core, a game that is so predictable that it's boring, yet so difficult to control that it appears unorganized.

What I mean is, after the break there's not guarantee that the game will ever by entertaining. So if you look at each game like they could be a possible "10" (in entertainment value) most one foul games register about a 3 or 4 (out of 10).

Two Foul is a different situation altogether, especially when the break is neutralized and you can see what the game really is all about.......not "breaking and running out," this isn't any more exciting (once a pro is in line) than watching a series of 2 foot putts by a golfer.

The better a player plays position the worse off the audience, because they are in for an hour of mundane (yet effective to win) pool that never gives them the spark to play themselves. This is the reason it's a poor TV game, not because of the players, money or game, it's because the rules aren't designed to bring out dynamic shot-making and clever, strategic movement.

Then, what we need is an announcer to yell, "9 BALL!", after it goes down. kind of like, "One hundred and eighty!".

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

How is it that pro players like myself get ridiculed for speaking up about changing?

How can we not try something new?

Many businesses go through downward trends, and what they do is regroup, retool and make the necessary changes to retain profitability.

The industry is down nearly 50% and what's being done? Is it too much to change the game into a better version of it's self? This is what's done in any business that wants to thrive........why not pool?

How is it that pro players like myself get ridiculed for speaking up that something must change. If changing or repairing a "sinking ship" so unreasonable?

Pool players from around the world are suddenly asking this one question......why?

Because of people like this "wedge". Here you have a bona fide CHAMPION in CJ Wiley sharing stories, mental tips for gambling and playing, promoting his methods, telling people what pool is like from the champion's perspective and you have as**oles like wedgie ALLOWED to troll him.
Yes I say ALLOWED. Because that is exactly what is happening. Guys like this are allowed to attack ad hominem and "call out" pros essentially calling them liars without any sort of admonishment from the management.
And perhaps they wonder why more pros don't choose to post in that environment. Kudos to CJ for how well he handles these trolls. Definitely a better man than me in that regard. I'd have told Wedgie to kiss my a%* and gotten banned for it, again.

Even if not used in every tournament it would be cool to see it tried, good idea.

 

[Swighey]

there's no guarantee that the game will ever be entertaining

That's why you have a commentator. Duh!

 

[macguy]

How can we not try something new?

Many businesses go through downward trends, and what they do is regroup, retool and make the necessary changes to retain profitability.

The industry is down nearly 50% and what's being done? Is it too much to change the game into a better version of it's self? This is what's done in any business that wants to thrive........why not pool?

How is it that pro players like myself get ridiculed for speaking up that something must change. If changing or repairing a "sinking ship" so unreasonable?

Pool players from around the world are suddenly asking this one question......why?

I think some of the ridicule comes from it just being all talk. We have heard this for too many years to take any of it seriously. You keep alluding to some secret plan that is in the works.

You also in other posts use the word "WE", implying there is a group working on this plan to change pool as we know it. When can we learn what this plan is? When will you reveal these new 2 foul rules that are going to revolutionize the game?

Today is Jan. 5th. If we revisit this thread 6 months from now will we know any more about all this then we do now? Just F'n tell us what the new game and rules are. Do you think someone is going to steal your idea? Trust me, no one is ridiculing you, we are all on the same side, and want the same things but getting a little tired of the talk. Action speaks louder then words. So what the heck is your idea?

 

[Island Drive]

How can we not try something new?

Pool players from around the world are suddenly asking this one question......why?

Because our game deals with such minute causes of misses/mistakes and such, the Video Production, like the Match Room events should be duplicated. The clarity of the balls/cloth/dirt and such gives the viewer the reality of what's truly happening and a ton of feedback for the mind. You'll need announcers that talk to the non-players in their language/mindset to create interest.

I was VERY impressed with the Stream Quality of the Barry H. productions, and surprised how much more I enjoyed the show. The measles ball was implemented to show ''more'' of what's going on. To NOT evolve this thinking is ''samo''. Evolve the video/AUDIO in such a way that viewers can see small specks of dirt on the object balls is INFORMATIVE, and gives the audience MORE PRODUCT for the eyes and mind. The NFL is a perfect example of constant improvement of camera locations, like the cable run cam over the field. Nascar has cameras in car, how about pro pool players having some type of body camera/like the police are now implementing.

 

[macguy]

Who's we? is this secret game locked up in a time castle ,,

1

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Because our game deals with such minute causes of misses/mistakes and such, the Video Production, like the Match Room events should be duplicated. The clarity of the balls/cloth/dirt and such gives the viewer the reality of what's truly happening and a ton of feedback for the mind. You'll need announcers that talk to the non-players in their language/mindset to create interest.

I was VERY impressed with the Stream Quality of the Barry H. productions, and surprised how much more I enjoyed the show. The measles ball was implemented to show ''more'' of what's going on. To NOT evolve this thinking is ''samo''. Evolve the video/AUDIO in such a way that viewers can see small specks of dirt on the object balls is INFORMATIVE, and gives the audience MORE PRODUCT for the eyes and mind. The NFL is a perfect example of constant improvement of camera locations, like the cable run cam over the field. Nascar has cameras in car, how about pro pool players having some type of body camera/like the police are now implementing.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what needs to be incorporated into pool, no matter if it is streamed or shown on TV.

I was watching the World Chinese 8-Ball tournament and they have cameras EVERYWHERE. I loved the angle where they got BEHIND the player and you had a "line of sight" directly down the POV of the shooter. You could see from the butt of his cue, all the way down the cue, and what his "aim" was and what type of English, if any, they were using on the shot. It left the "guesswork" out of "wonder how he done that?". You saw how he done it...you just have to have a stroke similar to him to pull it off.

It was interesting to see that the MAJORITY of the shots were "stun and kill" shots with MINIMAL English. It is too hard to English the balls around the rounded snooker-type pockets. It proved the theory that you can get all around the table and not "spin" the ball on 99% of the shots. You just have to make the correct shot selections and angles.

Aloha.

In edit: The matches I watched were Dennis Orcollo against the Chinese guy and Earl Strickland and the European guy. Talk about differences in styles and strokes. The only thing that they had in common was trying to stay somewhat straight in on the ball so that they could "kill and stun". They ALL screwed up when they had to "spin" the ball around the table and hit the ball "hard" down the rails.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's no person that has ever reached a high level of success without critics

After over 20 years I have developed a new pool game. It's a blend of the best components of several pool games. We're not reinventing the wheel, just improving the entertainment qualities.

This game is designed to ideally match a certain type sponsor here in Texas. I've worked on this game for many years and it still took an epiphany to put the pieces together. I played in nearly 140 tournaments last year, mostly 8 Ball, and 9 Ball to do the necessary Research & Development for this project.

The trade marking and legal work will take a few more weeks, however, the game is complete. It takes about 5 minutes for a player to learn, and a lifetime to master. Each player will have a chance to win every game, and the stages of development will require practice.

We will have the legal work, logo, business plan completed by next month. As far as our "grand opening," it will probably be strictly in Texas this year. I will work out a way to show it on AZ by having some other top pros come and play it with me.

We will explain, demonstrate and show players the rules, the strategies and how advanced this game of pool really is. I believe players will be pleasantly surprised to witness what knowledge is required to play pool at the highest possible level and the entertainment value is ideal for televised performances.

If anyone wants to get involved on the ground floor of this project please feel free to call my Texas Office @ (817) 479 - 3794 I am willing to work with TAP, APA or any other existing league. This game will not compete with other games, it's got legs of it's own. I can also be reached by email - thegameistheteacher@gmail.com

I think some of the ridicule comes from it just being all talk. We have heard this for too many years to take any of it seriously. You keep alluding to some secret plan that is in the works.

You also in other posts use the word "WE", implying there is a group working on this plan to change pool as we know it. When can we learn what this plan is? When will you reveal these new 2 foul rules that are going to revolutionize the game?

Today is Jan. 5th. If we revisit this thread 6 months from now will we know any more about all this then we do now? Just F'n tell us what the new game and rules are. Do you think someone is going to steal your idea? Trust me, no one is ridiculing you, we are all on the same side, and want the same things but getting a little tired of the talk. Action speaks louder then words. So what the heck is your idea?

 

[K2Kraze]

After over 20 years I have developed a new pool game. It's a blend of the best components of several pool games. We're not reinventing the wheel, just improving the entertainment qualities.

This game is designed to ideally match a certain type sponsor here in Texas. I've worked on this game for many years and it still took an epiphany to put the pieces together. I played in nearly 140 tournaments last year, mostly 8 Ball, and 9 Ball to do the necessary Research & Development for this project.

The trade marking and legal work will take a few more weeks, however, the game is complete. It takes about 5 minutes for a player to learn, and a lifetime to master. Each player will have a chance to win every game, and the stages of development will require practice.

We will have the legal work, logo, business plan completed by next month. As far as our "grand opening," it will probably be strictly in Texas this year. I will work out a way to show it on AZ by having some other top pros come and play it with me.

We will explain, demonstrate and show players the rules, the strategies and how advanced this game of pool really is. I believe players will be pleasantly surprised to witness what knowledge is required to play pool at the highest possible level and the entertainment value is ideal for televised performances.

If anyone wants to get involved on the ground floor of this project please feel free to call my Texas Office @ (817) 479 - 3794 I am willing to work with TAP, APA or any other existing league. This game will not compete with other games, it's got legs of it's own. I can also be reached by email - thegameistheteacher@gmail.com

CJ --- what's the latest news you have for all of us on the new game you've developed?

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