Touching the ONE-BALL in a 9-Ball Rack Creates an ADVANTAGE - Is This "Cheating" ?

[Joe_Jaguar]

I wasn't there so I don't know if Rodney was loose racking him or not. It was hard to see from the streaming so I was just assuming Rodney was giving him a decent rack.

The reason it looked shady to me was that Ignacio didn't appear to be asking for a rerack or even pointing out what he didn't like about Rodney's rack. He just waited until Rodney turned back toward his seat and quickly put a finger on the 1 ball.

If Rodney was loose racking him on purpose or trying to drag it out then I stand corrected but it was tough to see it that way while I was watching it on the streaming.

That is your first problem, assuming he was giving him a tight rack. And second, you must have been watching a different stream because Ignacio was constanly standing there pointing directly to Rodney what was wrong with the racks. You are just making shit up. Pay more attention to the stream than the damn chat full of Nits.

 

[HawaiianEye]

We must put the BATTLE back in the GAME, and do away with one foul, gaff equipment and racking at the Pro Level (it's fine for league and amateur play).

The WHOLE game of 9-ball and 10-ball today is a GAFF, if you ask me.

The game was fine until they started "improving" it to make it supposedly easier for both the player and the watcher.

Then came the 1-foul, then the faster cloth, then the pogo sticks for jumping, then the rack manipulating...etc...etc...

What was wrong with the game when Luther Lassiter was playing it?

Next thing to come is the goggles with "laser pointers" that will ZERO IN on the spot you are aiming at.

Then a robot to shoot the shot for you while you sit in the stands and control it on your smart phone.

Is it even pool anymore?

 

[Floppage]

If it's such an advantage then why do 99% of the players make sure at least the front three are frozen. I guess that's because they haven't seen Joe's video or they don't agree. I have the Joe's video. I'm saying Rodney was giving him a bad rack or Rodney wouldn't have agreed to keep racking, period. He would have said the racks good call the ref, if you don't like it, but he didn't do that did he.

But he wasn't so he just kept reracking, it's all to throw your opponent off whether it's trying to give him a loose rack hoping he'll except it or taking forever to give him a good rack, plain and simple, it's to get an advantage.

You know it and so do I.

OK, I feel like we're going in circles here but...

To me, it looked like Rodney only reracked after Ignacio touched the 1 ball. Like I said before, it was tough to hear but I didn't think Ignacio was suggesting it wasn't tight. He just touched the apex ball without saying anything.

If he did that to me, I'd rerack too. (you know...if I had enough confidence to do that) Once he touched the rack, which is against most tournament rules, the rack was compromised.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

More lies and insults. I proved you a liar twice in this thread alone. Typical response from you as someone that refuses to face the truth. No apology, no admittance, only childish name calling with no basis in fact.

Neil, to be clear, you have not *proven* anything in this thread. You have claimed several things.

The one useful thing you said in this thread is that sometimes people are just trying to get the rack tight when they touch the 1 ball. This is a fact. I know this, because I very much try to give a perfectly frozen rack, whether it is for myself or my opponent. People know I am honest. Last night in a 10 ball tourney one opponent asked if I would rack for both of us, "because I know you will give me a tight rack and I can't really give one for you". Wow...that guy totally earned my respect. And I definitely touch the one ball. Sometimes its very hard to get a good rack without doing it.

Maybe you would have come across better by just mentioning this, and skipping all the rest. You don't seem to be able to recognize how you come across to others, or perhaps you just don't care. In any case, I would be interested to know which post in this thread involves you *proving* anything.

Just trying to keep it real,

KMRUNOUT

 

[itsfroze]

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[Floppage]

That is your first problem, assuming he was giving him a tight rack. And second, you must have been watching a different stream because Ignacio was constanly standing there pointing directly to Rodney what was wrong with the racks. You are just making shit up. Pay more attention to the stream than the damn chat full of Nits.

OK, I have said repeatedly that I was just going off of how it looked to me. I watched the whole match and I thought I saw him touch the 1 ball right after the rack almost every time.

If I'm wrong about that then I am also wrong about my assessment of how it was handled.

At least some of us nits can acknowledge when we might be wrong.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Thanks CJ! I didn't understand all this racking stuff. Now I'm starting to. Can you explain it a little more?

You say in 9 ball you push back on the 1 ball. Question is where do you desire the gaps then exist? Is there a gap between the two second row balls or are there gaps between the second row ball and the wing ball? Or both? Is the one ball still froze to both second row ball?

I can see this being a massive advantage and so I'd like to start using it..

Thanks

:wink:

I think what CJ was saying is that Joe Tucker's DVD's describe exactly what you are asking here. I highly recommend purchasing the DVD's. Joe is an awesome guy, gives a LOT to pool, and puts a lot of useful info in his DVD's.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Floppage]

So I guess that Ignacio just kept asking Rodney to rerack for fun, and Rodney
being so professional just went along with out of the goodness of his heart.
yea okay !

I didn't see him ask to rerack. The way it looked to me (and again, I may have seen it wrong) was that Rodney racked and turned to sit down and Ignacio touched the 1 ball.

Even the announcers seemed to be seeing it that way as they kept saying they thought Rodney would tell him to stop touching the rack at any moment.

I am not claiming to be 100% accurate here. I am just going off of what I saw. Hopefully the match makes it onto youtube in the future and I can see it again and figure out what I may have missed.

 

[itsfroze]

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[Floppage]

How many times did Ignacio point at spaces between balls in the rack, I watched the match too, you didn't see this ???

The only time I saw him do that was while Rodney was reracking and to me it looked like he was just justifying why he touched the 1 ball. If Ignacio thought the rack was loose he should have asked for a rerack. My understanding of the rules is that he was NOT allowed to touch the rack for any reason.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I didn't watch it CLOSELY until after the Texas State Championships last year

If it's such an advantage then why do 99% of the players make sure at least the front three are frozen. I guess that's because they haven't seen Joe's video or they don't agree. I have the Joe's video. I'm saying Rodney was giving him a bad rack or Rodney wouldn't have agreed to keep racking, period. He would have said the racks good call the ref, if you don't like it, but he didn't do that did he.

But he wasn't so he just kept reracking, it's all to throw your opponent off whether it's trying to give him a loose rack hoping he'll except it or taking forever to give him a good rack, plain and simple, it's to get an advantage.

You know it and so do I.

It's because they haven't seen Joe's newest video. I didn't watch it CLOSELY until after the Texas State Championships last year. I immediately called Joe and he spent AN HOUR OF HIS TIME explaining it to me (I still needed the DVD to see visually), then he sent me BOTH his DVDs for FREE.

Yes, a loose rack is always unpredictable (Joe agrees in his video). I said the ball just needs to be a "hair" off to work correctly. After Rodney has to re-rack several times he doesn't care anymore, and it also puts a strain on his back. He knows what's going on, it's something he despises. He wrote all about it on his FaceBook page, so I know his opinion. I really wish he would contribute to this conversation, but he won't on here.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I agree for some tournaments but I think it also depends on which rules you are referring to and which method of cheating the rack. What Ignacio did last night is definitely against BCA rules.

1-14 Racking Procedures

2. You must rack the balls as tightly as possible. Each ball should touch all balls
adjacent to it. (AR p. 78)

3. After you rack the balls, your opponent may inspect the rack but must not touch any ball. If your opponent is not satisfied with the rack, they may require you to re-rack the balls one time. After one re-rack, if both players cannot agree that the rack is suitable for play a referee must be called. The referee will then rack the balls for that game. If the referee racks the balls, the opponent may inspect the rack but must accept the rack as is.

4. You should refrain from tapping balls unless necessary. It is preferable to brush the area of the rack and ensure that the spot attached to the cloth, if any, is in good condition.


And yes, I am that player in league who will call out a more experience player on the rules. I may play like a beginner but I at least read the damn rulebook.

If anyone touches my rack without asking me first, I rake the rack and start again. If you ask me and I watch you, I'm fine with that.

KMRUNOUT

 

[ENGLISH!]

Neil, to be clear, you have not *proven* anything in this thread. You have claimed several things.

The one useful thing you said in this thread is that sometimes people are just trying to get the rack tight when they touch the 1 ball. This is a fact. I know this, because I very much try to give a perfectly frozen rack, whether it is for myself or my opponent. People know I am honest. Last night in a 10 ball tourney one opponent asked if I would rack for both of us, "because I know you will give me a tight rack and I can't really give one for you". Wow...that guy totally earned my respect. And I definitely touch the one ball. Sometimes its very hard to get a good rack without doing it.

Maybe you would have come across better by just mentioning this, and skipping all the rest. You don't seem to be able to recognize how you come across to others, or perhaps you just don't care. In any case, I would be interested to know which post in this thread involves you *proving* anything.

Just trying to keep it real,

KMRUNOUT

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[itsfroze]

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[Neil]

That's great. Only problem is that you started at post 13.

So, where did this happen prior to post 13 that forced you to jump in this thread to "defend yourself"?

Really, Mike??? Did you even read post #13 and what I was replying to? Here's what I replied to "Either way, if you see someone fiddling with the one-ball they are up to no good "

That is stating, from a supposed authority figure, that anyone touching the one is automatically cheating, including myself. From that, you then get his fans labeling anyone touching the one to just tighten it up as cheaters by those that took a pros word for it and didn't know any better. I don't like being labeled a cheater or rack rigger. I take great pride in giving the tightest rack available. Making a broad nonfactual statement like he did does nothing to promote pool, but only makes thousands of players look like cheats when they aren't.

Should he have been called on it? You bet he should! And it is a shame that others didn't this time. But, they don't because of exactly what happened here. They know that he is free to say whatever he wants to, and is not to be challenged. Anyone that does will be threatened with banning, or be banned.

Labeling everyone trying to get a tight rack because they touched the balls as cheaters is nothing more than making the sport look worse than it already does. And, yes, statements like that should be challenged.

 

[Floppage]

He touched the rack many times while Rodney was standing right next to the table.
When he touched the 1-Ball he is not excepting the rack and pointing out that 1-Ball
is loose. So it doesn't matter if he touches that particular rack because he is not
excepting it as it is, understand ? He also pointed out other gaps by pointing several
times where he didn't touch the rack, you didn't see that ???

I didn't see it that way. Not saying you're wrong, just that I didn't see it.

Ignacio is playing on the stream now so maybe we'll see if Rob Saez is better at racking.

 

[BasementDweller]

I hate all these racking shenanigans as much as anyone BUT I don't buy into the theory that players are purposely manipulating the racks, by way of purposely putting gaps in certain areas in order to wire certain balls. It sounds good on its surface but when you think about it doesn't really make sense.

Gaps = randomness
Frozen = consistency

Serious players want consistently tight racks. Just think about it for a second. If a player is purposely putting gaps between certain balls they will be dealing with a different gap every single rack --
no matter how hard they try. Sure they will be able to wire a ball here and there but overall the racks will all behave uniquely.

But with a tight rack players can figure out where the balls will go ALL the time. This is what I believe Shane is doing and nothing more.

One other thing, historically very few gambling matches were played as rack your own. Why was this? I've asked different guys their opinion on this and the common response is "I can't slow someone down when they are racking their own." The implication is they arrange the balls different in the rack and also slug them a bit in order to slow down their opponent.

We need to do away with all the extra touching of the balls but ultimately the cat's out of the bad and there's no going back. Tight racks are the way to go.

Bring on the Magic Racks and the like.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

That's why rack your own should die IMO.
Then the breaker has no pre-break infuence on the rack he is breaking and he is faced with the task of figuring out someone else's rack.

The only problem with this is here: suppose you have two honest players. Player one racks fantastic, always gets them tight. Player two is terrible at racking. He doesn't know anything about the rack and isn't aware that the rack makes much difference. In this scenario, there are a few possible outcomes. 1) Player one accepts the crappy racks of player two, essentially "spotting" him the rack. This is a huge spot. 2) Player one asks player two to re-rack. Player two tries lots of times and gets angry and defensive, yet thinks it is player one trying to "get one over" on him somehow. 3) Player two lets player one rack his own, time is saved, and fairness is restored.

This happens a lot, particularly when playing with players of varying skill levels. Like league play for example.

I prefer rack your own, 9 ball doesn't count anywhere on the break. The most *consistent* rack is a perfectly frozen one. It is easier to learn how to break a perfectly frozen rack than it is to consistently wire up the rack the right way. When I rack my own, I try to eliminate all gaps, whether they would be beneficial or not.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Floppage]

I hate all these racking shenanigans as much as anyone BUT I don't buy into the theory that players are purposely manipulating the racks, by way of purposely putting gaps in certain areas in order to wire certain balls. It sounds good on its surface but when you think about it doesn't really make sense.

Gaps = randomness
Frozen = consistency

Serious players want consistently tight racks. Just think about it for a second. If a player is purposely putting gaps between certain balls they will be dealing with a different gap every single rack --
no matter how hard they try. Sure they will be able to wire a ball here and there but overall the racks will all behave uniquely.

But with a tight rack players can figure out where the balls will go ALL the time. This is what I believe Shane is doing and nothing more.

One other thing, historically very few gambling matches were played as rack your own. Why was this? I've asked different guys their opinion on this and the common response was "I can't slow someone down when they are racking their own." The implication is they arrange the balls different in the rack and also slug them a bit in order to slow down their opponent.

We need to do away with all the extra touching of the balls but ultimately the cat's out of the bad and there's no going back. Tight racks are the way to go.

Bring on the Magic Racks and the like.

Shane's break video on TAR backs up this opinion. He is pretty clear about why he wants a tight rack and what he does to get the balls to fall as he expects.

On the other hand, there have been other pros who argue that messing with the rack is like supplements in baseball or cycling. It's not that only some people are doing it but that only some are dumb enough to get caught.

I lack the necessary knowledge or experience to know who to believe.

 

[Neil]

Neil, to be clear, you have not *proven* anything in this thread. You have claimed several things.

The one useful thing you said in this thread is that sometimes people are just trying to get the rack tight when they touch the 1 ball. This is a fact. I know this, because I very much try to give a perfectly frozen rack, whether it is for myself or my opponent. People know I am honest. Last night in a 10 ball tourney one opponent asked if I would rack for both of us, "because I know you will give me a tight rack and I can't really give one for you". Wow...that guy totally earned my respect. And I definitely touch the one ball. Sometimes its very hard to get a good rack without doing it.

Maybe you would have come across better by just mentioning this, and skipping all the rest. You don't seem to be able to recognize how you come across to others, or perhaps you just don't care. In any case, I would be interested to know which post in this thread involves you *proving* anything.

Just trying to keep it real,

KMRUNOUT

I proved CJ lied about my posting history just to try and make me look bad and him good. Apparently, you find no problem with CJ calling you a cheater for touching the one. I do.