Scott Frost vs Ronnie Allen in his prime

Thank you sir! It seems you are one of very few that bridged that gap between generations of players. It is sad that there are so few of you guys left.

You're more than welcome !..There a few multi-generational guys, still around, and active..John Henderson, Incardona, and Little Al Romero to name a few ! But you are right, we're dropping like flies..We've lost about a dozen old scuffs, in just the last few years !
 
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I know you got caught looking like an imbecile there SJD, but you don't have to take it out on me. What question? LOL. I know you don't bother to read threads before commenting. You look for Mr3C, or CJ, and you run to see what they have said, so you can spill out some more useless ranting. At least you finally took a stab at answering the question.

Punter; I see he (SJD) has no issue replying to Fast Lenny RE: the title of the thread!

Maybe there's certain cryptic AZ (the state) language that's needed to communicate with him! Or, just a nice BIG bottle of YJ!

I replied to the thread in the way that I see things RE: the title of this thread! He chose, (as usual) to take it to a personal level! I can assure you, I've been around and witnessed first hand MORE HIGH$ one pocket from the 60's - 80's than he! I've was around and VERY good friends with the BEST One Pocket and Bank players of that era, except RA! RA rarely made it to Chicago where we had those players! SJD talks about if Artie or Bugs had come to the West coast they could of won the state! You could of WON MORE money just from the 'South side' of Chi-Town with ALL the 'Brothers' betting on Bugs and Artie, and not even talking about the North side where ALL the 'smart' money was!

His paranoia and distain for anyone that questions his judgement on forums or anyone that has MORE popularity than he, overshadows his being able to answer the simplest of inquiries! Like this thread! His obsession with trying to defame me as made him look MORE pathetic than the norm!

BTW, He stated he was with RA when Taylor beat him, NOT TRUE! I just confirmed it! I gave the facts as I know them, I done with this thread and his demeaning attitude!

P.S. ALL the issues with SJD and I started when he tried to discredit my BEST friend in pool, Freddy 'The Beard' on the other site! What he doesn't understand about us is that we have, 'Italian Alzheimer's!' (We never forget or forgive!)
 
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Punter; I see he (SJD) has no issue replying to Fast Lenny RE: the title of the thread!

Maybe there's certain cryptic AZ (the state) language that's needed to communicate with him! Or, just a nice BIG bottle of YJ!

I replied to the thread in the way that I see things RE: the title of this thread! He chose, (as usual) to take it to a personal level! I can assure you, I've been around and witnessed first hand MORE HIGH$ one pocket from the 60's - 80's than he! I've was around and VERY good friends with the BEST One Pocket and Bank players of that era, except RA! RA rarely made it to Chicago where we had those players! SJD talks about if Artie or Bugs had come to the West coast they could of won the state! You could of WON MORE money just from the 'South side' of Chi-Town with ALL the 'Brothers' betting on Bugs and Artie, and not even talking about the North side where ALL the 'smart' money was!

His paranoia and distain for anyone that questions his judgement on forums or anyone that has MORE popularity than he, overshadows his being able to answer the simplest of inquiries! Like this thread! His obsession with trying to defame me as made him look MORE pathetic than the norm!

BTW, He stated he was with RA when Taylor beat him, NOT TRUE! I just confirmed it! I gave the facts as I know them, I done with this thread and his demeaning attitude!

P.S. ALL the issues with SJD and I started when he tried to discredit my BEST friend in pool, Freddy 'The Beard' on the other site! What he doesn't understand about us is that we have, 'Italian Alzheimer's!' (We never forget or forgive!)

Billy, You are a very smart guy but there are some things you may not be aware of. Ronnie had a family to raise and when he went on the road it was for the express purpose of making money, not to prove anything to anyone. Ronnie bought a nice house in Burbank and raised three good kids, so he was successful as a father, something I couldn't say about a lot of pool players.

Ronnie went where he felt he could make the most money, and he certainly didn't look for the toughest game he could find. Playing Artie or Bugs in Bensingers was no bargain and Ronnie was a little too smart to fall into that trap. He didn't care if people thought he was afraid to play someone. It actually may have helped him in making other games.

In closing Billy, I can assure you that Ronnie made MILLIONS playing pool, maybe more than anyone else of his era. He got people to bet high, way out of their comfort zone. He wasn't trying to make a $500 score, he was after $5,000 or more! You couldn't out bet Ronnie! Unfortunately he had a weakness for the ponies and a lot of his winnings went south at the track (AFTER he had taken care of his family!). I accompanied him a few times to Hollywood Park and Santa Anita, and he shoved it in with both hands. He convinced me more than once to bet hundreds on a horse when I was only comfortable with a $20 bet. I can't tell you how many times our horse lost by a nose. :embarrassed2:
 
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Punter; I see he (SJD) has no issue replying to Fast Lenny RE: the title of the thread!

Maybe there's certain cryptic AZ (the state) language that's needed to communicate with him! Or, just a nice BIG bottle of YJ!

I replied to the thread in the way that I see things RE: the title of this thread! He chose, (as usual) to take it to a personal level! I can assure you, I've been around and witnessed first hand MORE HIGH$ one pocket from the 60's - 80's than he! I've was around and VERY good friends with the BEST One Pocket and Bank players of that era, except RA! RA rarely made it to Chicago where we had those players! SJD talks about if Artie or Bugs had come to the West coast they could of won the state! You could of WON MORE money just from the 'South side' of Chi-Town with ALL the 'Brothers' betting on Bugs and Artie, and not even talking about the North side where ALL the 'smart' money was!

His paranoia and distain for anyone that questions his judgement on forums or anyone that has MORE popularity than he, overshadows his being able to answer the simplest of inquiries! Like this thread! His obsession with trying to defame me as made him look MORE pathetic than the norm!

BTW, He stated he was with RA when Taylor beat him, NOT TRUE! I just confirmed it! I gave the facts as I know them, I done with this thread and his demeaning attitude!

P.S. ALL the issues with SJD and I started when he tried to discredit my BEST friend in pool, Freddy 'The Beard' on the other site! What he doesn't understand about us is that we have, 'Italian Alzheimer's!' (We never forget or forgive!)




I don't know you Bill, but I have a great deal of respect for your game of 3 cushion from what I've read and heard. You definitely have a lot to be proud of. I'm sorry that you and SJD cannot work out your differences.

Now, everybody knows that SJD and Lenny are good friends. And, myself and many others consider them to be two of the most respected people in the pool world. I have always found them to be honest and unpretentious. Dick, no doubt can be a little ornery and cantankerous at times, but that should never take away from his standing in the pool world.

Dick has never implied that he was the "best" in the area of one pocket or nine ball but from what I've read and heard he was a "top player" in several fields, including one pocket and golf on the big tables. And, from what I understand, he also was not afraid to bet his own money.

I wish the best for you and Dick and everybody else on this forum....And, I hope that soon, we can get rid of some of this continuing animosity and let people see more of the good spiritedness that so many of you guys possess.
 
Billy, You are a very smart guy but there are some things you may not be aware of. Ronnie had a family to raise and when he went on the road it was for the express purpose of making money, not to prove anything to anyone. Ronnie bought a nice house in Burbank and raised three good kids, so he was successful as a father, something I couldn't say about a lot of pool players.

Ronnie went where he felt he could make the most money, and he certainly didn't look for the toughest game he could find. Playing Artie or Bugs in Bensingers was no bargain and Ronnie was a little too smart to fall into that trap. He didn't care if people thought he was afraid to play someone. It actually may have helped him in making other games.

In closing Billy, I can assure you that Ronnie made MILLIONS playing pool, maybe more than anyone else of his era. He got people to bet high, way out of their comfort zone. He wasn't trying to make a $500 score, he was after $5,000 or more! You couldn't out bet Ronnie! Unfortunately he had a weakness for the ponies and a lot of his winnings went south at the track (AFTER he had taken care of his family!). I accompanied him a few times to Hollywood Park and Santa Anita, and he shoved it in with both hands. He convinced me more than once to bet hundreds on a horse when I was only comfortable with a $20 bet. I can't tell you how many times our horse lost by a nose. :embarrassed2:

Jay; Your opinion I would have to say I value more than 98% of the players! There's NO doubt Ronnie was a 'Good Hustler' his entire life, just like myself and Artie!

I'm quite sure there was NO bet that could ever get Artie or Bugs out of their 'Comfort zone!' And Artie bet HIS OWN money 90% of the time, the other 10%, He'd let guys like Freddy, Reno and me have a piece.

I'm not going to question the scores Ronnie made, I can ONLY speak for myself and for Artie from my personal involvement with him when it came to winning money playing pool!

But, I do have one question!' IN ALL the time the BIG action was going at the 'Rack' in Detroit, how is it Ronnie NEVER got in any BIG action?' Remember, I was in the thick of things there for several years. He ONLY played Bugs! If your claim is that, 'Ronnie went where the BIG money was!' If you were a cueist, there was NO other place to be in the 70's and 80's than the 'Rack!'

I myself won over $270.000.00 playing that little funny game with NO pockets! If I could do that, I'm sure RA could of stirred up something with his gift for gab!

P.S. I do think I would have to bet on the, 'Made Millions' quote! ;)
 
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P.S. ALL the issues with SJD and I started when he tried to discredit my BEST friend in pool, Freddy 'The Beard' on the other site! What he doesn't understand about us is that we have, 'Italian Alzheimer's!' (We never forget or forgive!)


As anyone who has ever even lurked on 1P.org can tell you, that is a bald faced lie !..My problems with you began long before any issues I had with your [sic] "Close Friend" Fred ! (who, truth be known, couldn't stand you either 'til you started 'helping' him trash me)..They began when you started calling me every name you could possibly fabricate !..Did you think myself or my friends would tolerate you calling me a 'wife stealer', a 'cheater', a 'dump artist', or a 'thief' ?..Thats another thing that irked you...I actually had 'friends' !

You became even more incensed, when your sordid past was exposed, and it became common knowledge, that you didn't have ANY friends in Chicago, and were in fact the most despised player, to ever enter a pool room there, or anywhere, you became known !..If I mentioned just a few of the things you were accused of, they are so heinous, and disgusting they would get me banned for sure, even though they were all proven to be true !

You followed me over here, to continue your attacks, and it is no fun having to waste my time putting you "in your place" every few days !..As I've often said, you are not worth my time...So from now on, I shall just furnish a link to this post, every time you go on one of your illiterate, hateful rants. I'm sure you will keep coming up with new 'lies' designed to bait me into responding..By the way, unless I missed it, I think you forgot to call me a 'pedophile' or a 'wife beater' ???


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I don't know you Bill, but I have a great deal of respect for your game of 3 cushion from what I've read and heard. You definitely have a lot to be proud of. I'm sorry that you and SJD cannot work out your differences.

Now, everybody knows that SJD and Lenny are good friends. And, myself and many others consider them to be two of the most respected people in the pool world. I have always found them to be honest and unpretentious. Dick, no doubt can be a little ornery and cantankerous at times, but that should never take away from his standing in the pool world.

Dick has never implied that he was the "best" in the area of one pocket or nine ball but from what I've read and heard he was a "top player" in several fields, including one pocket and golf on the big tables. And, from what I understand, he also was not afraid to bet his own money.

I wish the best for you and Dick and everybody else on this forum....And, I hope that soon, we can get rid of some of this continuing animosity and let people see more of the good spiritedness that so many of you guys possess.

Your thoughts are appreciated George, and I wish it were easy to erase all the bitterness. Yes, I can be cranky, and cantankerous, but I think you know that is not my nature at all in person. Even Fred and I routinely managed to bury the hatchet, every year or so, despite the efforts of certain people to keep us at odds with each other !

My decorum on these forums, could certainly be better..I seem to have a very short fuse, when it comes being constantly slandered, via the written word !..You and Lenny, and my other pool friends, know me as a very easy going person !..In fact, I never even realized I had the capacity to hate, or despise anyone as intensely as I have a certain individual on these forums.

But, I try not to be too hard on myself, because everyone knows, he has earned every bit of my disgust, and animosity, and yes, hatred !...I cannot see that EVER changing !.. I only hope I can outlive him, just so I won't have to worry about him defecating on my grave, as he has often promised to do ! :cool:

Be well, George, and good luck to you !

Dick
 
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During my time living in Arizona for the last 20 years I have truely enjoyed watching SJDick play...especially 1P. Also have enjoyed watching Scott Frost play and Ronnie Allen...thou much below his prime...but still very entertaining. Not sure who this 3Cusion guy is...and don't much care...seems like a real jerk to me.

Not sure it really matters who was better...all where/are great players...and even more interesting...unique individuals. Hail to the San Jose Dick's, Ronnie Allen's and Scott Frost's of the pool world.
 


Jay; Your opinion I would have to say I value more than 98% of the players! There's NO doubt Ronnie was a 'Good Hustler' his entire life, just like myself and Artie!

I'm quite sure there was NO bet that could ever get Artie or Bugs out of their 'Comfort zone!' And Artie bet HIS OWN money 90% of the time, the other 10%, He'd let guys like Freddy, Reno and me have a piece.

I'm not going to question the scores Ronnie made, I can ONLY speak for myself and for Artie from my personal involvement with him when it came to winning money playing pool!

But, I do have one question!' IN ALL the time the BIG action was going at the 'Rack' in Detroit, how is it Ronnie NEVER got in any BIG action?' Remember, I was in the thick of things there for several years. He ONLY played Bugs! If your claim is that, 'Ronnie went where the BIG money was!' If you were a cueist, there was NO other place to be in the 70's and 80's than the 'Rack!'

I myself won over $270.000.00 playing that little funny game with NO pockets! If I could do that, I'm sure RA could of stirred up something with his gift for gab!

P.S. I do think I would have to bet on the, 'Made Millions' quote! ;)

There were reasons that Ronnie did not frequent The Rack that I won't go into here. Let's just say it had something to do with how the money got cut up, and by who. Kapeche
 
Let's see...I am a little confused. This thread was about Scott vs Ronnie in their prime, correct? Where on erth did we get off that subject with other players, no matter how good they were?
 
Efren is the second best One Pocket player with a very different skill set than Ronnie had.

Can you elaborate on that? Ronnie Allen is something of an unknown legend to many of us younger people and we know little about him. We know he was supposedly awesome, but what exactly made him so good?

Efren most of us saw, he had/has that tremendous touch kicking skill, invents some insanely unique shots, and simply has that Efren "magic" and ability to win.

In what way did Ronnie differ? What areas did he excel at over all of his peers that made him so good?

(Edit) I kept reading, you already answered. ;)
 
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Can you elaborate on that? Ronnie Allen is something of an unknown legend to many of us younger people and we know little about him. We know he was supposedly awesome, but what exactly made him so good?

Efren most of us saw, he had/has that tremendous touch kicking skill, invents some insanely unique shots, and simply has that Efren "magic" and ability to win.

In what way did Ronnie differ? What areas did he excel at over all of his peers that made him so good?

(Edit) I kept reading, you already answered. ;)

See my post #39.
 
I understand that Sir Scott Frost has put a 8 ahead 20 to 50 k any player in the world challenge. I guess if Alex plays the way that he did at Derby, surely he can get 5 or 10 people with the large stacks to back him. I like to watch the action and have always loved to gamble, I just do not have deep pockets or backers like these top ranked players. I have watched Scott and Alex for years and if Alex will just play the game that he is capable of then he will take home the cash. He will have to play lights out because I'm putting Scott Frost in top 5 One Hole players today.
 
I watched Ronnie Allen at the Golden Cue in Memphis in 1974. I was a beginning player then, so I didn't understand the nuances of a lot of the shots. I'd love to re-live that evening today.

At the time, Memphis had somewhat of a reputation as a one-pocket town. Ronnie stayed all night, gambling with everyone who could be found, woke up, or called into town. I think he won at least four out of every five games, PLAYING ONE-HANDED AGAINST TWO-HANDED, with the best players the mid-south could muster.

It's hard to imagine anyone shooting better than Ronnie did that night. I remember he would kick into a cluster, one-handed, from the length of the table, and balls would fly everywhere. Then one would slowly roll through the blizzard of rebounds and drop into his pocket. Rudolf Wanderone was with him, but he was mostly a railbird for that evening. Bob Meucci might also have been present that night. This was around the time he was just getting started, and he was in the Golden Cue most weekends to promote his sticks. Often accompanied by a tall slim guy in this thirties with a big blonde afro - I think his name was Cecil :)

By 2 am a local reporter was on the scene, and the story was featured on the sports page of the Memphis Commercial Appeal.

Many years later (mid-late 1990's?) I was playing in a McDermott/Texas Express regional 9-ball tour stop in Paris, Texas, and Ronnie Allen was also entered. I got to talk to him for a few minutes, and told him that I was in the Golden Cue in Memphis that night 20 years before, and he seemed to think that was pretty cool. I don't remember him doing so well in the 9-ball tournament, though, and it seemed he had changed quite a bit over time. He was much heavier, and also more reserved in demeanor than I remembered from Memphis.
 
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Okay Ken. Ronnie was the best combination shooter ever! He could make those off angle combos like they were straight in. Ronnie was the most creative One Pocket player ever, finding fantastic shots out of the stack that no one else could see, often having to kick into the stack to make them. He shot shots (and made them) that no one else would shoot at (or even see).

His ability to kick three rails out of traps was a wonder to behold. He could be in a dead trap and turn the game around with an amazing kick shot. Again no one else has these shots or even knows them. I saw it over and over again with my own eyes. He also kicked two long rails more successfully than anyone else ever. Kicking one rail was child's play for him.

Ronnie's ability to move multiple balls toward his pocket was also beyond belief. You thought you had him behind the pack, and he would shoot a ball off the side rail to the end rail and into a cluster of balls. All of a sudden it looked like the table was tilted toward his hole, with all the balls rolling that way. If one of those balls happened to fall in, game over!

Ronnie ran ten and out more than any living human and did it from ungodly spots. Often he had to make four or five miracle shots to continue the run.

The bigger the bet the better he played! If you both needed one ball to win, you were dead. Ronnie's shooting percentage on game ball shots was something like 99%. He just never seemed to miss anything when it was for the match - super thin cut shot, difficult bank shot, it made no difference.

His end game was superb! If you were down to the last three balls, both needing two, he had you!

The last thing Island Drive also touched on. No one was more a master of the conversation than Ronnie, both before, during and after a match. He would compliment an opponent on a fine shot, study the pack for a minute or two, kick a ball in and then run out. He would then explain he had no choice but to go for the awkward kick shot since he was trapped, winking at me on the sidelines.

Ronnie told me more than once, that he won so much money in his life by giving up the nuts and outrunning them. And he did too!

There's probably more but I touched on the highlights. It's no accident that no one wanted to play him even for twenty years with only two exceptions that I know of - Bugs and Marvin Henderson (who also beat Ronnie once and wouldn't give him a rematch).

Jay, that sounds exactly like what I saw in 1974. I was a relative beginner at the time, and thought I was doing well just to hit a ball I kicked at. Seeing Ronnie Allen in his prime seemed little short of magic. And he made these unbelievable shots one-handed, all night long.

What he really had, in addition to talent, was imagination.
 
Gentile is not in the same league as Frost or the other guys you mentioned, Frost gives Gentile 9/7 and wins. Scott said Dennis asked for 9/7 which is crazy because Dennis plays way too good. You are right about all the other guys being at the top echelon but Justin Hall is not there in one pocket which is why the match with him and Frost never came off after Scott agreed to play him. Danny Smith is an up and comer to keep an eye out on but did beat Jeremy and I believe Darren Appleton too for the cash. Which players would you put in the box vs Frost if you had to pick them for your money?

The match with Jhall did not go off because the guy putting up the money for Jhall passed away a week after the open. Name an American besides Scott and Shane that you think are favored over JHall. Danny has been dodging him like the plague and Scott could of flew down immediately after the post was made about playing in Cape Coral but wanted a bunch of stipulations before he would go. There's only 3 people that could play Jhall one pocket and not put me in the homeless shelter betting on him.
 
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