Chest contact

[pdcue]

I don't think enough credit is being paid to how the game evolved in this country. For most of it's history, 14.1 has been the game of choice among the top players. 14.1 was thought to be best played by slowly picking apart the rack, using caroms, combos, short stop shots, mostly into the lower two pockets and a few into the side pockets. It was a short range game that lent itself better to sighting balls from a higher vantage point.

Also, there was no great need for long range precision in the game. Rarely did a player take a chance with a long tester which might leave the table open for the other player to run out the set. You're supposed to play a safety there.

Think about how that game use to be played, look at clips of the old masters, and draw your own conclusions. It was a tight and congested game, especially when the table switched to the smaller 9' size. Hard to see much of what is necessary when you chin is way down on the cue.

This is what I think is the biggest reason, and not some imagined ingrained sloppiness due to our ridiculously easy tables. It's just our game, and I don't think anybody should feel like they are lesser players than the blokes across the pond, any more than a top shotgunner need feel inferior because he can't make a target at 100 meters like a rifle shooter can.

Many good points.

It's all about emphasis on the Cue Ball. The old masters you refer to were great
players, not just great shotmakers(potters). 14.1 was all about controlling the
Cue Ball and opening up the balls. They played in the bottom half of the table,
and, they realized the table had side pockets, a fact obviously lost on today's
NineBall-Straight Pool players. They rarely made difficult shots or long shots
because they didn't have to. That was the whole idea.

To take it a step further -IMNSHO - The more emphasis placed on the Cue Ball,
The higher players tend to stand,

Carom, 3 Cushion and Balkline players tend to be the highest of all.
Of course there are exceptions, and I certainly haven't seen every Carom player
in the world, but I have never seen a 3 Cushion Player with a stance anything
resembling that of a Snooker player.

Dale

 

[Scott Lee]

The stroke used with a bridge is more wrist than arm, and completely different than a traditional pendulum stroke, which does finish on your chest. You'd think you never used a bridge before...

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

It must be a interesting stroke to have your grip hand end up on your chest when using a bridge.

And even a more intersting stance to get your chest on the cue when using a bridge.

 

[Mirza]

So, does someone think that having a chest contact while playing pool is a negative or positive effect, should one have it or not?

 

[bender_lu]

a lot has already been said, i guess its personnal preference.

basically, pool and snooker always required different approaches. snooker always had the long distances, different cloth, smaller,lighter balls, tighter pockets. precision was king.

Pool had sloppier pockets, slow cloth, heavy balls. with more and more 9 ball being played, players needed to move the cue ball a lot. so they needed a lot of action on the cueball to move it, a slightly higher stance gives you more room to work with the cue. this also brought up the closed bridge, since a higher stance, where your shoulder is not naturally locked, would also allow more slop in the cueing action.

With the upcoming of faster cloth and modern ball materials, pool has changed quite a lot. the buckets got to easy with the new cloth, so they reduced the size of the pockets to make the game more difficult for the top pros. so in one sence the big cueing action is not needed anymore. it would be logical for most 9 or 10 ball players to move towards a more snookerlike stance to enhance accuracy, since powershots are only needed when badly out of position.

On the other hand, theres 8ball and straight pool. some1 stated that straight poolers stand higher to see the balls better. well, all the planning is done while standing upright, when your down, your down to shoot since the tables have changed (see above) maybe some players might have some benefits in getting lower on the cue.

After all, its up to everyones taste how he or she plays. looking at the younger players one can see that getting low on the cue is normal for most of them. the rest will naturally follow.

 

[Kim Bye]

I used to have this problem. Actually one of my first post on this forum was on this subject.
There where several problems that caused this problem.
My stance was too upright, my hand was turning inward, I was "bobbing" up and down when I was shooting, the harder i shot, the more severe the "bobbing" was.
I held the cue in the wrong place.
So lots of stuff to fix...
This is how I went about correcting these errors:
1. Focus on standing still! I videotaped myself playing. After a few months of conscious effort I had reduced my movement while shooting to a point where I now stood as still as the players that was compeeting in nathional events.
2. My hand, elbow and grip was much the same thing, but it took much longer to iron out the kinks. I can`t think of any other way to fix this, than through the use of videotaping or having an instructor.
having a lower stance was part of fixing the bobbing, but also changing my footwork. I use the Immonen type stance, bent front knee and straight back leg.
One of the biggest aid for me was switching froma 29" shaft to a 30" shaft, that helped my hand/elbow position a lot. Getting a 4" extension that screws on between the butt and shaft helped even more. I have fairly long arms, so now I can get deeper down, but still hold the cue in the middle of the grip area (for most shots..)

One more thing about chest contact: I`m by no means a big guy, but I try to keep in shape and getting bigger pecs, will entail that you contact with your chest on some shots, especially hard shots, where you sacrifce some form, I think it`s inevitable, but it`s so seldom, it`s really not a problem.

 

[BeiberLvr]

So, does someone think that having a chest contact while playing pool is a negative or positive effect, should one have it or not?

For me, it's positive.

Overall, it's neutral.

 

[Mirza]

For me, it's positive.

Overall, it's neutral.

For me too, I was just wondering is it a temporary thing, like other temorary positive change effects I had.

I think it might be positive overall, but I can't state it because of several reasons already stated in the thread, but it surely is a good thing to think/talk about.

 

[BeiberLvr]

For me too, I was just wondering is it a temporary thing, like other temorary positive change effects I had.

I think it might be positive overall, but I can't state it because of several reasons already stated in the thread, but it surely is a good thing to think/talk about.

The biggest excuse I've seen is that pool (especially rotation games) requires you to move the CB around.

So for some reason they think you need your arm way out to the side to accomplish those shots, but you don't.

Especially on today's equipment with faster cloth.

 

[Mirza]

The biggest excuse I've seen is that pool (especially rotation games) requires you to move the CB around.

So for some reason they think you need your arm way out to the side to accomplish those shots, but you don't.

Especially on today's equipment with faster cloth.

I play on slow cloths, and mainly 10 ball, didn't have problems.....yet

 

[Pidge]

Anyone would think rotation players were playing with bowling balls and a match stick. Pool tables are so quick today and the rails so responsive that you don't need a big old stroke with a run up.

For anyone wanting to improve I would highly recommend looking into fundamental snooker instruction. Few reasons, and I am by no means saying snooker fundamentals are the only way to cue perfectly or that it will instantly turn you into the next world number 1. Firstly, solid trustworthy snooker instruction is more readily available on the internet, especially on areas such as the stance and alignment. All free, all simple to follow. Secondly, there is a reason all the top snooker players look very similar when they play...it works.

Having the cue running along the chest is not a negative if it is done correctly. So that only leaves it being a neutral change or a positive improvement. Either way, if its done properly you have nothing to lose and potentially lots to gain.

 

[Colin Colenso]

The difference in height isn't really an issue for most. Most naturally learn to widen the stance when changing to a pool table. Unless you are really vertically challenged as a snooker player, a foot wider stance on a pool table is more than enough to enable you to get down fully.

I think you are right in that pool has, well not more, but steeper cut shots on the whole. More angle means the cue ball can travel further but that doesn't mean a whole different stance would be adopted.

It comes down to instruction and what you see. Snooker players all have instruction to make it to the top. Pool players don't. Snooker instruction is based purely on fundamentals to start where pool instruction is all over the place if I'm honest. You have instructors that special is in sighting, aiming, kicking, fundamentals, playing the game and so on. Snooker instruction is a lot simpler. If you grow up watching snooker you will try emulate the guys on tv. If you grow up watching pool the same is true.

Good points Pidge!

I agree that snooker players can adapt to the lower tables with some stance widening. I guess my main point is that most US players learn the game for many years being higher, and for them, getting so low would be a big transition, and imho, not make much difference to their success in 8,9,10B or 14.1, 1 pocket or banks.

I see some snooker training that impresses me in recent years, but historically, I'm way underwhelmed, and even the best modern day trainers I think have a LONG way to go. I think the good players naturally develop good fundamentals and work out the adjustments with hard work and trial and error which works well for them based on very good alignment and aiming fundamentals.

I see the worlds best snooker players swiping for gearing English and Back Hand English. I'm not aware of any over there actually training that. Watch Judd Trump when he plays reverse side screw off near straight blacks and similar shots. He aligns center ball, to inside edge of pocket and swipes for english and screw.

A friend of mine recently returned from there and was amazed how much time the guys are doing on basic fundamentals like striking CB up and down the table back to tip.. hours a day. If they knew how pivot points worked, I doubt they'd waste so much time on this illusory purity of stroking and CB hit.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Anyone would think rotation players were playing with bowling balls and a match stick. Pool tables are so quick today and the rails so responsive that you don't need a big old stroke with a run up.

For anyone wanting to improve I would highly recommend looking into fundamental snooker instruction. Few reasons, and I am by no means saying snooker fundamentals are the only way to cue perfectly or that it will instantly turn you into the next world number 1. Firstly, solid trustworthy snooker instruction is more readily available on the internet, especially on areas such as the stance and alignment. All free, all simple to follow. Secondly, there is a reason all the top snooker players look very similar when they play...it works.

Having the cue running along the chest is not a negative if it is done correctly. So that only leaves it being a neutral change or a positive improvement. Either way, if its done properly you have nothing to lose and potentially lots to gain.

I watched the young kid beat Efren today, 25-13. The way he pots, I'd be surprised if he could win 1 in 10 games of snooker against a pro. But he's an excellent CB positioner.

I don't think there is a lot to be gained in US games through training toward elite pocketing. Appleton surpasses Melling in US games for example, because he is such a diligent CB positioner mainly, and works harder on his break and kicking shots. He pots well, but not nearly as well as the fringe pro snooker players. Same goes for the Taiwanese. Some of those Chinese though, I suspect are regular 100 snooker break makers, but we won't be seeing many of them on the US pool circuit. Wang Can is more of a pool player I believe, along the lines of Li He Wen and Fu Jian Bo, guys I played with when I lived there.

 

[Pidge]

Good points Pidge!

I agree that snooker players can adapt to the lower tables with some stance widening. I guess my main point is that most US players learn the game for many years being higher, and for them, getting so low would be a big transition, and imho, not make much difference to their success in 8,9,10B or 14.1, 1 pocket or banks.

I see some snooker training that impresses me in recent years, but historically, I'm way underwhelmed, and even the best modern day trainers I think have a LONG way to go. I think the good players naturally develop good fundamentals and work out the adjustments with hard work and trial and error which works well for them based on very good alignment and aiming fundamentals.

I see the worlds best snooker players swiping for gearing English and Back Hand English. I'm not aware of any over there actually training that. Watch Judd Trump when he plays reverse side screw off near straight blacks and similar shots. He aligns center ball, to inside edge of pocket and swipes for english and screw.

A friend of mine recently returned from there and was amazed how much time the guys are doing on basic fundamentals like striking CB up and down the table back to tip.. hours a day. If they knew how pivot points worked, I doubt they'd waste so much time on this illusory purity of stroking and CB hit.

Playing with side, or learning to naturally play with side isn't difficult. That's the main reason they don't waste time with pivot points. The pivot point for BHE is so far back on my snooker cue that if I bridged there wouldn't make an ounce of difference to my game because my accuracy of the hit would be all over the place which means either less or more side than intended...kinda makes playing with side pointless if you cant control the spin for position.

I cant say I've ever noticed any severe swiping, bit I'm sure it happens. Players are taught to cue through the ball rather than across it but players develop their own methods of doing it. I've spoken with Judd about side and he says to line up with the tip position and cue straight through. If it is true he is swiping on some shots its clear to me he doesn't know he is doing it.

 

[Baxter]

I would say one of the negatives about the cue contacting your chest through the stroke is that it can make you doubt the straightness of your stroke. At the end of the stroke, your tip is going to finish slightly left of the stroke line (for a right-handed player) because of the wider diameter butt coming into contact with your chest. That wider diameter pushed the end of the shaft off to the left slightly. Because of this, if you only pay attention to finish position when checking straightness of stroke, you can feel like you aren't stroking straight if you don't understand what is happening. It took me a while to figure it out. You can't hit drills like the one Dr Dave recommends with the golf tees, because you'll knock the tees over every time. You'll just frustrate yourself, create doubt, and create bad habits trying to compensate for what is a natural occurrence.

 

[GB Basher]

If you want to play with 'cue on chest', even when you are practising you need to be careful what top you have on.....lots of tee shirts have like transfer pictures or writing on them.
Your cue will not slide freely against these.
....my solution if I was wearing the wrong 'T', was to take it off and put it back on inside out.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Taking notes - playing with Ronnie O'Sullivan and Steve Davis in the Mosconi Cup.

The difference in height isn't really an issue for most. Most naturally learn to widen the stance when changing to a pool table. Unless you are really vertically challenged as a snooker player, a foot wider stance on a pool table is more than enough to enable you to get down fully.

I think you are right in that pool has, well not more, but steeper cut shots on the whole. More angle means the cue ball can travel further but that doesn't mean a whole different stance would be adopted.

It comes down to instruction and what you see. Snooker players all have instruction to make it to the top. Pool players don't. Snooker instruction is based purely on fundamentals to start where pool instruction is all over the place if I'm honest. You have instructors that special is in sighting, aiming, kicking, fundamentals, playing the game and so on. Snooker instruction is a lot simpler. If you grow up watching snooker you will try emulate the guys on tv. If you grow up watching pool the same is true.

I agree, this philosophy was used when I revamped my stroke and stance. To this day my teaching leans towards what I've learned from snooker coaches and pro players. We have combined snooker and pool mechanics to accommodate the subtle differences.

For instance, I recommend the left foot parallel to the line of the shot, however, I've found that putting the left foot further forward (than snooker players) and keeping some flex in the both legs give pool players an ideal foundation. Earl Strickland, Mike Sigel, and Efren are great examples of a solid pool playing stance.

My first Pro tournament was in Toronto Canada, and even though I got lucky to beat Efren, Earl, Rempe, Lebron, in the tournament I still could tell they had an advantage..... I just couldn't identify what this advantage was.

So I sought out an accomplished snooker instructor and found out......made the necessary stance and stoke changes over a 3 week period.......and played the best, most consistent pool I could have imagined. The secret to playing your best starts at the foundation (feet).

In 1996 I had the privilege of playing with Ronnie O'Sullivan and Steve Davis in the Mosconi Cup. This proved to be icing on my professional cake because I picked up some specific information needed to fully maximize my game's potential. I like what Ronnie O'Sulliven says about "hitting the white with your elbow" - he's genius (not Einstein though).
"

The next year was incredible.

 

[Nick B]

Good summary, especially about snooker tables being higher than US pool tables, When going from snooker to US pool, the hamstrings can really ache getting the chin and body right against the cue.

Another point is that US table games require more cut shots, where being more upright can help in the perception of the angle. Snooker involves a lot more longer fuller shots... especially in the critical aspect of getting the first good visit, so they must be highly adept at this shot, so it forms the basis of their systematic approach.

Colin,
That's a good point. In Canada most of our tables are setup high (with legs fully extended (ie Goldcrown)). Not quite as high as a snooker table but closer. It's the first thing I notice when I go to the US. When I play snooker and I'm more "spiderlike" on the table. On pool table I'm a little more upright. When kicking I get up higher still to better see the angle and the point on the rail that I'm targeting.

Nick

 

[duckie]

It has always bothered me that so many are so quick to answer with a standard answer to a question like this chest/chin thingie.

Never has the statement first been made "It depends on the shot." Just two pics of shots that there is no way to get down low for the chest/chin on the chest.

Why shots like this are not thought about when replying on how to is beyond me. Seems any good instructor would know that a shooting stance is all dependent on the the ball layout on the table.

If snooker fundamentals really don't cross over to pool, why recommend them?

Why not just state, use whatever stance is comfortable to you for the shot layout and allows you to be consistent in your stroking. Seems to fit all shots huh......

But than again I'm a banger and just spend alot of table at the table playing 14.1 or doing my 15 ball runout drill.

 

[DTL]

....................

 

[BeiberLvr]

It has always bothered me that so many are so quick to answer with a standard answer to a question like this chest/chin thingie.

Never has the statement first been made "It depends on the shot." Just two pics of shots that there is no way to get down low for the chest/chin on the chest.

Why shots like this are not thought about when replying on how to is beyond me. Seems any good instructor would know that a shooting stance is all dependent on the the ball layout on the table.

If snooker fundamentals really don't cross over to pool, why recommend them?

Why not just state, use whatever stance is comfortable to you for the shot layout and allows you to be consistent in your stroking. Seems to fit all shots huh......

But than again I'm a banger and just spend alot of table at the table playing 14.1 or doing my 15 ball runout drill.

1st Pic: Just play the 11 in the side pocket. EZ shot.

2nd Pic: Why are you even considering the 11 ball here? The 6 is a hanger and you can get practically anywhere on the table with the angle you have.

Seriously, how bad are you at pool?