LOL= I love a dare!never be tempted to say peri-stroke, hope this helps
LOL= I love a dare!never be tempted to say peri-stroke, hope this helps
I'll take a moment to quote Scott Lee's impressively-compressed definition of a good stroke which he posted to AZB a couple years ago and which has stuck with me ever since:I've been watching, hearing and reading players blame stroke on a multitude of errors for years. The assumption seems to be that they were aligned perfectly, but their stroke causes the miss.
. . . Most who parrot stroking errors seem oblivious to the relevance of the bridge length v effective pivot point relationship and they also never seem to comment on stroke as it relates to Spin or Contact induced throw.
. . . IMHO, stroke is the bogey man excuse for bad alignment on 90+% of occasions.
Colin Colenso;5088651 ..................................... IMHO said:Colin, I disagree. But, for the sake of your argument, let's assume those numbers are correct. What is alignment, other than aiming? So, here you are saying that aiming is the cause of most misses. Yet, in many other threads, you state that aiming is the easy part, and aiming systems are a waste of time. Which is it??
Or could it simply be that one needs to learn how to aim, and also needs to learn how to stroke straight down that aiming line to be successful with the shot??
I've been watching, hearing and reading players blame stroke on a multitude of errors for years. The assumption seems to be that they were aligned perfectly, but their stroke causes the miss.
I've been calling BS on this for a while, though I am aware of how certain stroking methods or tendencies can effect shot execution.
My point here is to ask what it is they think, or know, by playing and testing, that a bad stroke actually does to the shot line and induced throw on the OB.
Most who parrot stroking errors seem oblivious to the relevance of the bridge length v effective pivot point relationship and they also never seem to comment on stroke as it relates to Spin or Contact induced throw.
It's like the Bermuda Triangle of pool. What the heck do people think a stroke can do, and under what circumstances and how does this effect pocketing a ball.
It's been assumed to be obvious, but it is certainly not!
IMHO, stroke is the bogey man excuse for bad alignment on 90+% of occasions.
Opinions? Evidence? Would be happy to hear considered opinions!
Colin
You're right Neil.Only if you use the correct speed for your pivot point on all shots. BHE is great. But, it is not a "cure all stroke problems" that some like to think it is.
Neil,Colin, I disagree. But, for the sake of your argument, let's assume those numbers are correct. What is alignment, other than aiming? So, here you are saying that aiming is the cause of most misses. Yet, in many other threads, you state that aiming is the easy part, and aiming systems are a waste of time. Which is it??
Or could it simply be that one needs to learn how to aim, and also needs to learn how to stroke straight down that aiming line to be successful with the shot??
I'm glad you responded ChicagoRJ, as it allows us to get our teeth into the meat of the matter.Actually, I think "bad alignment" is the bogey man for a piss poor stroke. Get folks with poor stroke, not horrible, but not perfect, and they HATE long straight in shots?
Why, because their stroke is off and pushes the cueball off course, or puts unintended spin on the cue ball and throws ob of course.
Of course, those same folks don't mind a long cut shot, you know why? Cause their "stroke" will not be blamed by the shooter... Oh, I undercut it, I overcut it, blah, blah, blah. But the straight in shot does not lie.
Just too many moving parts in the stroke for it NOT to be the biggest cause of worry for an amatuer player. Not saying some folks do NOT have problems with alignment, cause many do. But that repeatable stroke, on easy shots and tough ones, every time is not an easy task for many.
I'm glad you responded ChicagoRJ, as it allows us to get our teeth into the meat of the matter.
You say strokes push balls off course. I ask how and what tests have ever shown this.
If my bridge length is longer than my pivot point and I swipe and hit the right side of the CB, my testing shows that the CB travels left of the alignment from bridge V to CCB (Center Cue Ball).
If I swipe slowly right and hit CCB, my testing shows the CB travels a little right of the line of my bridge to CCB.
But when I strike firm to CCB with swipe, my tests so far can't show any significant difference in the line of CB travel.
Hence the reason for this thread. Who has evidence about stroking changing paths for various speeds, pull acrosses, swipes, off centrer hitting v bridge lengths? I've seen little data and yet everyone seems to be convinced that the stroke can and does do far more than the physics or any testing has indicated.
Colin
I'm glad you responded ChicagoRJ, as it allows us to get our teeth into the meat of the matter.
You say strokes push balls off course. I ask how and what tests have ever shown this.
If my bridge length is longer than my pivot point and I swipe and hit the right side of the CB, my testing shows that the CB travels left of the alignment from bridge V to CCB (Center Cue Ball).
If I swipe slowly right and hit CCB, my testing shows the CB travels a little right of the line of my bridge to CCB.
But when I strike firm to CCB with swipe, my tests so far can't show any significant difference in the line of CB travel.
Hence the reason for this thread. Who has evidence about stroking changing paths for various speeds, pull acrosses, swipes, off centrer hitting v bridge lengths? I've seen little data and yet everyone seems to be convinced that the stroke can and does do far more than the physics or any testing has indicated.
Colin
Dr. Dave and I have discussed effects of swoop and so forth to degrees and are generally in agreement as far as I've discovered.Have you read all of Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett's and Mark Wilson's material? How much data is enough? Stroke errors cause loss of precision. Loss of precision means that what you intended to have happen isn't going to happen, but something else un-intended will happen.
If I intend to hit at 1:00 (O' clock) on the cb, but mishit due to a crooked stroke and hit at 2:00, I will get a different result than I intended to have. The squirt will be different, which means that the cb will not go down the intended line at all.
There are a ton of examples I could give here. Suffice it to say that the game is all about precision. And lack of precision is what causes slumps, loss of consistency, not getting better despite playing countless hours, ect.
SP99,I don't even know where to start with this. Sure backhand english is fantastic when you slam balls in with the proper bridgelength the ball goes straight. Hooray.....Then why not hit every shot 800 miles pr. hour every time and keep the stroke length the same. You will become the new world champion, congratulations you have broken the code. Why doesn't Efren do this I wonder?
This game or any other billiard game that I know of is not about slamming balls in 800 miles pr. hour. It's about finesse. With finesse shots the stroke does matter. Hitting the ball in the wrong place will make it go somewhere other than you intended and may in turn cause you to miss the object ball because of throw or swerve, as Neil pointed out.
Besides a good stroke is about speed control and timing, which is easier to achieve with good stroke fundamentals.
Nothing new so far. However I do disagree with you on another point. You act as if our body is made out of metal and bolted to the ground, when this is far from the case. It is unnatural for the body to remain still when your arm is moving. Even if your stance is rock solid ther will be some movement of the body. If you have too much movement you can actually cause shifts in the brigde hand and thus miss. The likelyhood of this increases with stroke speed and especially with a poor stroke/fundamentals. This should be common sense.
... After doing it for 7 or so years, I have a lot of advice to share. Would like to make it great quality, but may have to compromise. I've no intent to sell it, just make it easier to understand and learn and let others build upon it and/or improve it. ...
Dr. Dave and I have discussed effects of swoop and so forth to degrees and are generally in agreement as far as I've discovered.
I'm not saying that the stroke doesn't have it's place. A great smooth straight stroke is a powerful tool.
My central point is that many people blame misses on a bad stroke, when the stroke had little if anything to do with the miss.
The silent assassin is alignment, via incorrect bridge positioning on most occasions.
I'm intending on doing more comprehensive testing of swoop/ swipe effects in the near future to further understand the effects. From what I've done thus far, the firm swipe appears to produce insignificant aiming effects.
With regard to side english CB hitting, I've tested this for 7 years using BHE. What I've found is that stroke plays some role, but on most shots using BHE, if the bride is in the correct place, for most shots, the OB will go in, regardless of the stroke, unless it is horrendous.
I think it's both alignment and stroke are problematic with most beginning and intermediate players.
But I do agree that many place too much emphasis on stroke when they should be talking about alignment.
A poor alignment can create a problematic stroke where the player is trying to realign in mid stroke, often without even realizing it. This can create a habit that is hard to break.
I always recommend to get the alignment right first, then work on the stroke.
I'm not sure why you are saying that a bad stoke is mostly an alingment problem. If I line up perfectly then move my hand to the right as I'm shooting, I'm not going to hit where I am trying to hit. Or if I pocket the ball I may not be able to hit it with the spin I am trying for because the tip moved as the arm went forward.
Or you are just waving the stick around wildly like beginners do even if you line them up on the shot line yourself.
Plus a bad stoke can lead to other issues like not being able to draw or follow the cueball well, especially draw. Many people pound the shit of ouf the cueball when trying to draw and they end up with a stop shot because they have a crappy stoke that raises their tip up when they actually shoot or they jerk the cue to a stop.