So who was (is) the Greatest Player ever ?

[smashmouth]

There are other lists that include the professional championships which do list Hoppe. Most of Hoppe's championships were at forms of the game other than 3-cushion.

which lists?

according to the wiki below, neither Hoppe nor Worst nor any American except Edward Lee ever won the official UMB World Title

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lee_(billiards_player)

So the US held their own version of a 3 cushion world championships? did the the euro champs compete in these? any links to records, tourneys, etc...?

 

[pt109]

which lists?

according to the wiki below, neither Hoppe nor Worst nor any American except Edward Lee ever won the official UMB World Title

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lee_(billiards_player)

So the US held their own version of a 3 cushion world championships? did the the euro champs compete in these? any links to records, tourneys, etc...?

Harold Worst won the world 3-cushion in 1954 in Argentina.

The Union Mondiale de Billard was formed in 1959....
...The Billiards World Cup Association recognized Harold's title...
...they faded out in 2004.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...8T_bBA7ZVcvrqwv5vFETSBg&bvm=bv.86475890,d.aWw

 

[pt109]

you have to take what Efren says with grain of salt, lots of hearsay and mistranslations over the years and he's also been known to exaggerate

do not let the humble act fool ya, u don't become the king of the jungle being mr. nice guy

i highly doubt Efren's prime was the 70's, maybe his ball pocketing was but not overall

You make some valid points here...
...Jose Parica was the Man in the 70s....
...when Jose was winning the big tournaments in Japan....
...Efren was the junior player, tagging along.
Jose is a few years older

 

[DAVE_M]

Here's my opinion; I hope it starts a fire and makes another 10 pages of discussion.

We can always look at the past and say that Luther Lassiter, Willie Mosconi, Irving Crane, Allen Hopkins, Ronnie Allen, Steve Mizerak, Buddy Hall, and the rest, were all great players or could be argued that they were the best, but here's my issue with that. All these old farts saying ____ said _____ was the best player that ever lived, don't take into account that most of those guys are long gone and haven't seen the talent today. Why do they say that? Because they stick to their guns, that it was harder to play back then... I call BS. Most of the same old farts saying that, can't run a three pack on a Gold Crown with buckets.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Here's my opinion; I hope it starts a fire and makes another 10 pages of discussion.

We can always look at the past and say that Luther Lassiter, Willie Mosconi, Irving Crane, Allen Hopkins, Ronnie Allen, Steve Mizerak, Buddy Hall, and the rest, were all great players or could be argued that they were the best, but here's my issue with that. All these old farts saying ____ said _____ was the best player that ever lived, don't take into account that most of those guys are long gone and haven't seen the talent today. Why do they say that? Because they stick to their guns, that it was harder to play back then... I call BS. Most of the same old farts saying that, can't run a three pack on a Gold Crown with buckets.

Sorry Dave, but I don't buy your take on us 'old farts' ! (at least most of us ) ..I do not believe in 'hypothetical' player comparisons, especially between generations !.. Way to many variables in equipment, age, tournament vs gambling..etc !
..I do believe it is very feasible to compare two player's 'knowledge' at a specific game.. For instance, comparing RA, or Efren's one pocket game, with SVB or Corey Duell's is VERY doable !..Providing of course, you know the game well enough to make that judgement !

When you get into the areas of who had the best 'stroke', who pocketed balls best, or stood up under pressure best, then it gets VERY murky !..I don't think ANYONE is able to accurately sort all that out !..And saying who is the "best player", will always be just a subjective 'opinion'...nothing more ! ........ Dave, you need to always try and remember the old saying..."Opinion's, are like assh**e's...everybody has one" !

SJD

 

[DAVE_M]

For instance, comparing RA, or Efren's one pocket game, with SVB or Corey Duell's is VERY doable !..Providing you know the game well enough to make that judgement !

That's the exact answer I was hoping to bring out! :thumbup:

Knowledge and execution is too different things. I could listen to Danny D and Billy Incardona for hours, but I wouldn't even bother trying to compare their physical games to anyone of any era.

 

[pt109]

Sorry Dave, but I don't buy your take on us 'old farts' ! (at least most of us ) ..I do not believe in 'hypothetical' player comparisons, especially between generations !.. Way to many variables in equipment, age, tournament vs gambling..etc !
..I do believe it is very feasible to compare two player's 'knowledge' at a specific game.. For instance, comparing RA, or Efren's one pocket game, with SVB or Corey Duell's is VERY doable !..Providing you know the game well enough to make that judgement !

When you get into the areas of who had the best 'stroke', who pocketed balls best, or stood up under pressure best, then it gets VERY murky !..I don't think ANYONE is able to accurately sort all that out !..And saying who is the "best player", will always be just a subjective 'opinion'...nothing more !

SJD

Here's my subjective opinion..

I think there were more good players in the action days...
...the pool hall business was far more lucrative then...
...and there were far more players playing for serious cash.

I worked at GM when I was twenty...and would go to the big city on weekends..
..where I would often play snooker BY THE GAME for more than my
weekly paycheck.

My first day in Detroit, I played for about seven times my weekly paycheck...
....with one red on a 9-foot snooker table.

Every small town had a pool hall with their hometown champ...
...and some of them could stop a roadplayer's trip.

So, because of everyday action, I feel the average player was better.

I think the top players are better now because they grow up with
knowledge that was only being discovered back then....
...but the roadplayers paved the way.

 

[smashmouth]

Harold Worst won the world 3-cushion in 1954 in Argentina.

The Union Mondiale de Billard was formed in 1959....
...The Billiards World Cup Association recognized Harold's title...
...they faded out in 2004.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...8T_bBA7ZVcvrqwv5vFETSBg&bvm=bv.86475890,d.aWw

your facts seem off and the link provided seems to lack proper sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMB_World_Three-cushion_Championship

this link suggests the premiere world event was the UMB title preceded by the
Union Internationale des Federations d'Amateurs de Billard

the BWA barely existed

I can find nothing online to suggest that Willie Hoppe was competing at the highest levels of 3 cushion

 

[pt109]

your facts seem off and the link provided seems to lack proper sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMB_World_Three-cushion_Championship

this link suggests the premiere world event was the UMB title preceded by the
Union Internationale des Federations d'Amateurs de Billard

the BWA barely existed

I can find nothing online to suggest that Willie Hoppe was competing at the highest levels of 3 cushion

It does get pretty confusing in the billiard, pool, and snooker worlds.

For instance, Earl Strickland is credited with 3 world 9-ball titles by the
WPA...but that was starting in 1990...many of us credit him with 6 titles.

Horace Lindrum won the world snooker title in 1952...not recognized
by many associations.

The CBSA recognizes Canadian snooker champions starting in 1974.
I think Con Stanbury was the first one in the 30s.

Billiards Digest thinks Harold Worst won the world 3-cushion title...
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...LGsZqKlU8TLjjsNrgPxR8Xg&bvm=bv.86475890,d.aWw
...and so do I

 

[cubswin]

Efren gets my vote.

 

[madfedaykin]

This magazine article from 1983 mentions that Efren has been beating Jose in a series of money matches since 1976.
http://anitokid.blogspot.com/2008/01/efren-reyes-king-of-billiard-hotshots.html

So yes, it wasn't just gamesmanship on Efren's part when he points out that we was better way before he came to the US. I'm sure there are other accounts (not just rumors) of his prime speed in that decade, just like in this article. I just hope there were someone who was fortunate enough to have seen him play during his prime when he was king of Philippine pool since the mid-70s.

you have to take what Efren says with grain of salt, lots of hearsay and mistranslations over the years and he's also been known to exaggerate

do not let the humble act fool ya, u don't become the king of the jungle being mr. nice guy

i highly doubt Efren's prime was the 70's, maybe his ball pocketing was but not overall

 

[smashmouth]

It does get pretty confusing in the billiard, pool, and snooker worlds.

For instance, Earl Strickland is credited with 3 world 9-ball titles by the
WPA...but that was starting in 1990...many of us credit him with 6 titles.

Horace Lindrum won the world snooker title in 1952...not recognized
by many associations.

The CBSA recognizes Canadian snooker champions starting in 1974.
I think Con Stanbury was the first one in the 30s.

Billiards Digest thinks Harold Worst won the world 3-cushion title...
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...LGsZqKlU8TLjjsNrgPxR8Xg&bvm=bv.86475890,d.aWw
...and so do I

maybe he was, everything I've seen online including your links are all hearsay though

the UMB version was not held from 54-57 so conceivably they had some type of replacement event

Presumably Worst won that 1954 de facto world championships

from the limited info online, I can see that being the case, but NOT Hoppe at this point, I've found nothing to suggest he was a true cushion world champ who competed against and beat the top 3 cushion players from europe/south america

having said all that, there must be a few historians here that can share some facts and resources to clear this up

 

[Mr. Bond]

I can find nothing online to suggest that Willie Hoppe was competing at the highest levels of 3 cushion

For what its worth:

3Cushion " greats" of the past:
http://www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org/files/1935_world_3_cush_Chicago.jpg

Hoppe takes 3cush world title 1936
http://www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org/files/19360112C016000001000003.pdf

Hoppe takes 3cush title 1941
http://www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org/files/1941_3_Cush_Poster_Bensingers.jpg

1942 3cush championship including Hoppe AND Greenleaf
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qdclAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PfwFAAAAIBAJ&dq=billiard&pg=5417,3750486

1943 Cochran takes 3cush title from Hoppe (Temporarily)
http://books.google.com/books?id=VF...life - jan 1,1945&pg=PA27#v=onepage&q&f=false

1946 Hoppe vs Schaefer Jr. For 3cush title
http://www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org/files/1946_Hoppe_v_schaefer.pdf

1947 Hoppe captures title without finishing tourney
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1d9OAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5f8DAAAAIBAJ&dq=billiard&pg=4820,2701659

1948 Hoppe defends 3cush title again
http://www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org/files/1948_Mosconi_Hoppe.pdf

1949 Hoppe topples Chamaco
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4YRIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VIMMAAAAIBAJ&dq=billiard&pg=2073,2897953

which lists?

Here are the top player rankings from 1930.

Ralph Greenleaf is placed first in pocket billiards, Johnny Layton first in 3-cushion and Jake Schaefer [Jr.] first in 18.2 balkline, according to the rating list just announced by the ranking committee of the National Billiard Association of America. These selections should occasion no surprise, as the three are at present the champions of the
world in their respective divisions. However, in 3-cushion the unexpected is found, for three balkline players are placed among the first 10. Willie Hoppe is placed at number 2, Welker Cochran at number 6, and Schaefer at number 8.

Hoppe has been dropped to number 5 at balkline and barely managed to escape 7th position. He has failed to compete in either of the last world's 3-cushion or pocket billiard tournaments, but the ranking committee rated him on past performances and felt that no list would be complete unless Hoppe was assigned a position. The ratings for the three divisions follow:

18.2 Balkline
1. Jake Schaefer, San Francisco
2. Welker Cochran, New York
3. Edouard Horemans, Belgium
4. Eric Hagenlacher, Germany
5. Willie Hoppe, New York
6. Roger Conti, France
7. Kinrey Matsuyama, Japan
8. Felix Grange, France
9. Edmond Derbier, France
10. David McAndless, Chicago
Honorable mention - Tadao Suganuma, Kamekichi Suzuki, Koji Yamada, Japan; Ary Bos,
Holland; Ora Morningstar, San Diego

Three Cushion
1. Johnny Layton, Sedalia MO
2. Willie Hoppe, New York
3. Otto Reiselt, Philadelphia
4. Allen K Hall, Chicago
5. Augie Kieckhefer, Chicago
6. Welker Cochran, New York
7. Gus Copulos, Detroit
8. Jake Schaefer, San Francisco
9. Tiff Denton, Kansas City
10. Earl Lookabaugh, Chicago
Honorable mention -Art Thurnblad, Len Kenney and Joseph Moriarty of Chicago; Charles E.
Jordan, Los Angeles; Alfredo de Oro, New York; Walter Riley, Philadelphia

Pocket Billiards
1. Ralph Greenleaf, New York
2. Frank Taberski, Schenectady
3. Edwin Rudolph, Chicago
4. Onofrio Lauri, Brooklyn
5. Pasquale Natalie, Detroit
6. Charles Seaback, Boston
7. Arthur Woods, Pawtucket R.I.
8. Andrew Ponzi, Philadelphia
9. Marcel Camp, Detroit
10. Spencer Livsey, Los Angeles
Honorable mention - Charles Harmon, NewYork; Charles (Cowboy) Weston, Chicago; Larry
Stoutenburgh, Buffalo; Andrew St Jean, Minneapolis; James Maturo and Joseph Concannon,
Brooklyn; Harry Oswald, Pittsburgh

Published April 13, 1930 in the NY Times

 

[3kushn]

maybe he was, everything I've seen online including your links are all hearsay though

the UMB version was not held from 54-57 so conceivably they had some type of replacement event

Presumably Worst won that 1954 de facto world championships

from the limited info online, I can see that being the case, but NOT Hoppe at this point, I've found nothing to suggest he was a true cushion world champ who competed against and beat the top 3 cushion players from europe/south america

having said all that, there must be a few historians here that can share some facts and resources to clear this up

EDIT: SORRY I GUESS I WAS TYPING AT THE SAME TIME AS MR. BOND.

No doubt that the history is somewhat lost. Mr. Bond may have some documents to prove both Hoppe's and Worst 1954 Championship. Its unfortunate that the BCA doesn't give us access to even the tournaments that they sanctioned such as the 1951 US National Championship.

In order to become somewhat convinced of Worst's world championship you need to search on the other players in that tournament. Navarra, Katsura , Chamao... Here you'll only find mention of the win but it collaborates the story to some degree.

You can take a look at http://www.3cushion.com/before1990.htm for some Hoppe evidence. Unfortunately Deno doesn't have the 1954 chart.

If I understand the Hoppe record correctly, there were Tournaments as we know them but also challenges to the title. In other words there were challengers who wanted to take the title. These one on one matches usually were over several games and even held in several cities. Mostly these were in Balkline and Straight Rail and races to like 1,000, 5,000 or more points sometimes lasting a few days per game.

Here's an AZ link started by Mr. Bond Post #5 is a news clip from the Chicago Trib. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=207762

 

[smashmouth]

all those tourneys appear to be American tourneys on American soil with the term "world title" being tossed around quite liberally

seemingly, the UMB and it's predeccesor held the most prestogious event with the world's top players in which I can find no references of Willie Hoppe competing

seems odd that as a champ for decades he never made it to any of these events

so maybe he was the best billiard player period, but again, it does not seem as if he ever competed in the true 3 cushion world championships

 

[smashmouth]

here's a reference to Hoppe losing the 1949 non UMB world title that was referred to as the world championships in Argentina, the article references the winner as the uncrowned champ which we might infer references to the UMB politics at the time

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...yr8LAAAAIBAJ&sjid=g1UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5030,569721

now American sources seem to have referenced Hoppe as World 3 cushion champ during this time period

 

[Jaden]

That appears to be a challenge match or exhibition...

here's a reference to Hoppe losing the 1949 non UMB world title that was referred to as the world championships in Argentina, the article references the winner as the uncrowned champ which we might infer references to the UMB politics at the time

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...yr8LAAAAIBAJ&sjid=g1UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5030,569721

now American sources seem to have referenced Hoppe as World 3 cushion champ during this time period

That article doesn't reference a world championships...it references a challenge match to 1500 points...where a crown is not given..

If Johnny hitsalot got into a non title bout with Tyson and somehow managed to win, would that make him the heavy weight champ???


Jaden

 

[mr3cushion]

here's a reference to Hoppe losing the 1949 non UMB world title that was referred to as the world championships in Argentina, the article references the winner as the uncrowned champ which we might infer references to the UMB politics at the time

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...yr8LAAAAIBAJ&sjid=g1UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5030,569721

now American sources seem to have referenced Hoppe as World 3 cushion champ during this time period

The UMB tournaments up until recently were ALL, 'Amateur' events! Raymond Ceulemans won MORE amateur tournaments then ANY player! He was considered for all those years the, 'World Amateur 3 Cushion Champion!'

During the years of Willie Hoppe's reign, He was the, 'World Professional 3 Cushion Champion!'

BTW, IMHO, Harold Worst was the GREATEST 'All around player, EVER!'

 

[smashmouth]

That article doesn't reference a world championships...it references a challenge match to 1500 points...where a crown is not given..

If Johnny hitsalot got into a non title bout with Tyson and somehow managed to win, would that make him the heavy weight champ???


Jaden

correct, I re-read

 

[smashmouth]

The UMB tournaments up until recently were ALL, 'Amateur' events! Raymond Ceulemans won MORE amateur tournaments then ANY player! He was considered for all those years the, 'World Amateur 3 Cushion Champion!'

During the years of Willie Hoppe's reign, He was the, 'World Professional 3 Cushion Champion!'

BTW, IMHO, Harold Worst was the GREATEST 'All around player, EVER!'

interesting

the guys Hoppe lost to in the challenge seemed to be multi UMB champ and looks like he lost bad

so the question, did the UMB have the best players in the best tourney vs the bca versions in the usa? Did willie hoppe actually conquer the world at 3 cushion?

everything points to no