Yes, the basics, lets just throw away English, kicking, banking, jumping, the break shot, position play, caroms, billiards, because the basics will solve everything
For some, it comes natural, for most others, it never will.
Tired of hearing about lessons...
- Thread starter ktrepal85
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Yes, the basics, lets just throw away English, kicking, banking, jumping, the break shot, position play, caroms, billiards, because the basics will solve everything
For some, it comes natural, for most others, it never will.
Im with you Tramp.
The way I remember it working was like this : when first starting out if you showed heart, some kinda talent, and desire you came in and paid your dues and if one of the better or top players in your town liked you they kinda took you under their wing and road trips were the true lessons. You either sank or swam.
Honestly back in the day I dont remember as many people taking lessons then as of now. For sure though most of the folks taking lessons didn't play anywhere near as good as those being mentored by the better gamblers. In fact, a lot of the time the people taking the lessons were pretty much always looked at as fish and everyone would always try to get a game with them.
I guess it may depend what area ya came up in, and it certainly may be totally different now. - or maybe it isn't.
Don't you think these people were taking lessons. Just longer more full featured lessons with ongoing feedback. Good player's run in packs and crews and they constantly school each other with feedback and tips along with the ongoing support. Of course many of them claim to have not taken lessons but then they go on a road trip and win or lose invariably one or another will be talking between spots this is what you should have done or did you think of this. And they tell each other when they are jumping up or they need to take a break get their head straight. People who get better do it with other people whether they are instructors or players or even a staker who used to play. You don't know what you do and you don't do and for what you know and you don't know.
Lessons who needs them......
My comment wasn't advice, lame, or otherwise. It was a statement of fact.
Most league players rarely get better. At least, to the level of local shortstops and beyond.
And, what happened to the other 10 per cent? Are they the ones who could never figure out the difference between an orange and a five ball?
There isn't enough money in the world to buy your way to the top of this game.
I agree. Comparing notes with other pool players is a huge part of the learning process and the forum affords posters this opportunity. If the only things one ever learns about pool are from instructors, one is overlooking some of the methods by which most players improve.
Sorry to disagree with you but I will repeatedly suggest lessons to anyone wanting to improve their game. Worked for me and still working. Should we not suggest lessons and let time go by to those that could benefit sooner rather than later. Plus I swear by Scott Lee and will continue to support him.
Currently I'm learning 1pocket. Some people suggested the best way to learn is to gamble. That's great advice huh. Others said to learn from an instructor. I'm currently doing that. My only regret is not doing it sooner. Thanks for your post....you are entitled to your opinion.....but is that helping anyone get to the next level?
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No im not saying people dont need instruction, im just agreeing with Tramp with " coaching " as opposed to " lessons.
Im in the camp that trial by fire is much more useful and productive than just taking lessons. What I mean by that is I think you will learn way more and much faster by staring down a hill hill nine ball KNOWING if you miss that its gonna hurt you ( or at least ur gonna be digging in ur pockets ) as opposed to being on a corner back table with ur instructor THINKING if I miss this nine ball he's gonna have to keep putting it back up till I get this right.
I have nothing against instructors, I believe u may even be able to gain some type of insight from some. I just think its better suited as supplemental not primary. I'd even like to take a lesson or two from Geno if our paths ever cross and see what happens.
Also, no disrespect to anyone but it seems as most of the instructors I've encountered cant hold a candle to most of the players doing the " mentoring " i spoke of earlier.
Before everyone jumps in and says how some of the top players are not able to teach very good what they know - well ok sure i agree but at the same time there's no guarantee any given instructor is going to be a good teacher either though right?
They learned by gambling. Come on up and I will gladly "help" you learn the game. :wink:
Indecently, I took my lesson in Toronto AFTER defeating Efren Reyes,& Earl Strickland
I took lessons from a snooker coach in Canada and it helped my game become more consistent and opened up a door for continued improvement.
I'm still passing on tips from those lessons and other things I've learned from many champion players through the years. Unfortunately, much of the older knowledge is not available to many people these days.....this may change in the following weeks.
Indecently, I took my lesson in Toronto AFTER I beat Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Mike Lebron, and Jimmy Rempe so it wasn't like my game needed much help.....however, I could see that these players did something that I wasn't doing and couldn't put my finger on the specific fundamental differences.
Fortunately, this guy could, and although it took three weeks to make the changes, it's propelled me into one of the best money players.....and my tournament game wasn't too bad either. Lesson are for those that want to speed up their progress, and take a "short cut" to wisdom that may take them 20 years to gain on their own. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I took lessons from a snooker coach in Canada and it helped my game become more consistent and opened up a door for continued improvement.
I'm still passing on tips from those lessons and other things I've learned from many champion players through the years. Unfortunately, much of the older knowledge is not available to many people these days.....this may change in the following weeks.
Indecently, I took my lesson in Toronto AFTER I beat Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Mike Lebron, and Jimmy Rempe so it wasn't like my game needed much help.....however, I could see that these players did something that I wasn't doing and couldn't put my finger on the specific fundamental differences.
Fortunately, this guy could, and although it took three weeks to make the changes, it's propelled me into one of the best money players.....and my tournament game wasn't too bad either. Lesson are for those that want to speed up their progress, and take a "short cut" to wisdom that may take them 20 years to gain on their own. 'The Game is the Teacher'
The best instructors help the student plot their own path, with ways to understand why they are supposed to do what they're supposed to do, plus teach them what to do when the wheels fall off (diagnostic tools). They also make sure the student knows what they are supposed to gain from the practice, and give them a way to measure their progress...so they know whether or not they're actually improving. Nothing replaces the work that the student has to put in on the table. There are those who have taken lessons, including some in this thread, that will never get anywhere because they refuse to follow directions, for no particular reason other than they think they know better. That could be called "can't see the forest for the trees".
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I'm curious, for all those against lessons -
Have you taken a lesson from a well regarded instructor and been disappointed by the results?
Or are you just pontificating about something of which you have no first hand experience, in opposition to those who actually do?
I'm truly curious because we hear plenty of praise for lessons from those who have taken them and very few people who have had the experience and been disappointed.
I've taken two lessons. One was a small group endeavor that was only marginally useful, due to the group setting. The second, however, I found very useful. Shooter08 and I did a lesson with Scott Lee and I definitley learned some valuable things about my fundamentals. Could I have learned them eventually on my own, or learned how to overcome them? Yes, I think I could have, but I think the lesson saved me a lot of time and shortcut the process significantly.
They aren't for everyone, you have to go into it with an open mind and ready to embrace and use what you learn, but they can be worthwhile and I don't see any reason why those who have found them such should refrain from trying to point others down a path that has been found to work, at least for many people.
If you have more time than money then, by all means, endeavor to learn the info on your own. For those who would rather accelerate the process by seeking outside help, lessons can be invaluable.
Have you taken a lesson from a well regarded instructor and been disappointed by the results?
Or are you just pontificating about something of which you have no first hand experience, in opposition to those who actually do?
I'm truly curious because we hear plenty of praise for lessons from those who have taken them and very few people who have had the experience and been disappointed.
I've taken two lessons. One was a small group endeavor that was only marginally useful, due to the group setting. The second, however, I found very useful. Shooter08 and I did a lesson with Scott Lee and I definitley learned some valuable things about my fundamentals. Could I have learned them eventually on my own, or learned how to overcome them? Yes, I think I could have, but I think the lesson saved me a lot of time and shortcut the process significantly.
They aren't for everyone, you have to go into it with an open mind and ready to embrace and use what you learn, but they can be worthwhile and I don't see any reason why those who have found them such should refrain from trying to point others down a path that has been found to work, at least for many people.
If you have more time than money then, by all means, endeavor to learn the info on your own. For those who would rather accelerate the process by seeking outside help, lessons can be invaluable.
This from the guy who posted in the instructor forum, ASKING for who could give him lessons near where he lives in OH. Interesting to note that he has not contacted any of the highly qualified instructors who were suggested to him.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
The best instructors help the student plot their own path, with ways to understand why they are supposed to do what they're supposed to do, plus teach them what to do when the wheels fall off (diagnostic tools). They also make sure the student knows what they are supposed to gain from the practice, and give them a way to measure their progress...so they know whether or not they're actually improving. Nothing replaces the work that the student has to put in on the table. There are those who have taken lessons, including some in this thread, that will never get anywhere because they refuse to follow directions, for no particular reason other than they think they know better. That could be called "can't see the forest for the trees".
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Agreed, Scott. Instructors can really make it happen. My opinion, though, is that the learning hungry student must supplement the knowledge they gain through instruction and practice by watching top players, reading books and comparing notes with other players. The original poster, while conceding that instructors are incredibly valuable in the learning process, seems frustrated that attempts to compare notes with other players on non-mechanical aspects of the play such as psychology and strategy are, far too often, dismissed and obstructed by blanket "get an instructor" responses. I find it to be a perfectly reasonable observation.
How can we be sure you can?
How can we be sure you can "see the forest for the trees"?
The best instructors help the student plot their own path, with ways to understand why they are supposed to do what they're supposed to do, plus teach them what to do when the wheels fall off (diagnostic tools). They also make sure the student knows what they are supposed to gain from the practice, and give them a way to measure their progress...so they know whether or not they're actually improving. Nothing replaces the work that the student has to put in on the table. There are those who have taken lessons, including some in this thread, that will never get anywhere because they refuse to follow directions, for no particular reason other than they think they know better. That could be called "can't see the forest for the trees".
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
How can we be sure you can "see the forest for the trees"?
Well put, CJ.
Furthermore, how do we even know you and I (I'm speaking to Scott, here) are even looking at the same trees? Your trees may be tall and majestic like the mighty Sequoias, while mine, on the other hand, may be short and swarthy, like the great Western Cedar. Then there's that five ball thing again.
Holy shit, this thing has gotten way too existentialistic for me. Your turn, CJ. :smile:
Stu...Again, the best instructors will always include psychology and strategy as part of their instruction. I often counsel students to watch videos of pro players, or watch in person to see if they would make the same choices, for the same reasons. As was stated by others, often the "find an instructor" comments are geared towards those that have become frustrated from "trying to figure it out on their own"...so it's not so much the "blanket approach".
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Many of great players learned the game thru trail and error playing better players learning the hard way racking watching and learning sometimes if their lucky enough someone will teach them a thing or 2
This does work if your to some extent but in many cases it is a long process
What a instructer does is shorten the learning curb
A young player can absorb a tremendous amout of knollefge inva shorter period of time the younger the better as the instructor his little bad habits to changes
The older we are the harder the harder it becomes because we have those bad habits deeply intrenched into our subconscious and it takes tremendous dedication to change that Phil Micholson as a example fights his want to hit the miracle shot in stead of the safe play he fights it like a demon
I truly believe that we as Americans are falling way behind in utilizing coaching and that's why we are falling farther behind Asias and Eruo players and if big money hits the table as most Americas want to see , the best I can tell them if they want to know what a players make they should check the exchange of The Eruro and Yen because Shane might be the only one wiit even a remote chance of cashing out so called second best has zero chance .... Goose Egg thier spitting out that quality like
M&Ms
1
This does work if your to some extent but in many cases it is a long process
What a instructer does is shorten the learning curb
A young player can absorb a tremendous amout of knollefge inva shorter period of time the younger the better as the instructor his little bad habits to changes
The older we are the harder the harder it becomes because we have those bad habits deeply intrenched into our subconscious and it takes tremendous dedication to change that Phil Micholson as a example fights his want to hit the miracle shot in stead of the safe play he fights it like a demon
I truly believe that we as Americans are falling way behind in utilizing coaching and that's why we are falling farther behind Asias and Eruo players and if big money hits the table as most Americas want to see , the best I can tell them if they want to know what a players make they should check the exchange of The Eruro and Yen because Shane might be the only one wiit even a remote chance of cashing out so called second best has zero chance .... Goose Egg thier spitting out that quality like
M&Ms
1
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This from the guy who posted in the instructor forum, ASKING for who could give him lessons near where he lives in OH. Interesting to note that he has not contacted any of the highly qualified instructors who were suggested to him.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott, I am not against lessons in any way. I am against everyone simply recommending lessons in the forum as a response to every question anyone has. Yes, I asked for a qualified instructor and the only recommendations I got were from guys that were 2 hours away from Cleveland...no thanks. I didnt mean to start a huge debate on whether or not lessons are good. Unless you are absolutely clueless, then you should already know that lessons are a good way to improve. But what's so wrong with asking a question on a forum and getting a beneficial answer without paying for an instructor??
The difference between the USA and the Eastern Block Countries during the USSR years is simple. They worked the mental game before the physical game.
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